The Red Sox ARE good. So now what?

[Rovin Romine]

They're 4th in baseball in runs scored, but number 17 in runs allowed. The leadoff hitter has not hurt nearly as much as the defense.

Now, take the next step with this fact. How does one improve the defense? Swapping out players, or if there's an experiential/statistical basis for it, drilling players to improve in certain areas. (Keeping in mind there are physical ceilings. One cannot, mid-season, reasonably expect to upgrade the reaction time or arm strength of an outfielder, saying "Just say, 'I think I can,' more often before you throw, JD." Or, "Will your self to have more range Enrique Hernandez, you darling you who-worshiped-me-as-a-boy.")

How does one improve the offense? Cora moves a pencil over a piece of paper.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Coming out of the ASB, they play 18 days in a row and all of the series are against Toronto, Tampa and the MFY. That is really rough.

We were saying the same thing about the last four weeks that included 7 against the Astros, 6 against the Yankees, 6 against the Rays, and 4 against the Jays. They were 12-9 in those games and regained the division lead in that stretch.

Still, that three weeks will be a time to gain a lot of ground in the division, so it will be huge.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Now, take the next step with this fact. How does one improve the defense? Swapping out players, or if there's an experiential/statistical basis for it, drilling players to improve in certain areas. (Keeping in mind there are physical ceilings. One cannot, mid-season, reasonably expect to upgrade the reaction time or arm strength of an outfielder, saying "Just say, 'I think I can,' more often before you throw, JD." Or, "Will your self to have more range Enrique Hernandez, you darling you who-worshiped-me-as-a-boy.")

How does one improve the offense? Cora moves a pencil over a piece of paper.

I think you can expect some mental improvement. I still think Xander is a good SS (not great) and Devers has great range. Arroyo and Kiké both look good at 2nd but all these guys make mental errors that I think one should expect that to improve. You CAN get guys to focus... it's difficult, but it's what a good coach really actually can do. Defensive positioning also seems like something that surely can be done with a pencil.

 

[sean1562]

The leadoff spot seems like it can only really be improved by calling up Duran and hoping he makes the transition successfully. Everyone we throw in there has been bad because the hitters we have on the ML roster to fill that spot in the lineup are bad. Maybe Wong can demonstrate he is capable of maintaining a .650 OPS or so and we can just ditch Marwin and Santana. I don't think we are going to get any value from those two players over the rest of the season.

edit: I did not realize that Wong will be 26 next year. Why not give him Marwin's job and see what he can give us? Gonzalez has been terrible for two years now.

 

[grimshaw]

The leadoff spot seems like it can only really be improved by calling up Duran and hoping he makes the transition successfully. Everyone we throw in there has been bad because the hitters we have on the ML roster to fill that spot in the lineup are bad. Maybe Wong can demonstrate he is capable of maintaining a .650 OPS or so and we can just ditch Marwin and Santana. I don't think we are going to get any value from those two players over the rest of the season.

edit: I did not realize that Wong will be 26 next year. Why not give him Marwin's job and see what he can give us? Gonzalez has been terrible for two years now.

Steamer has him at .226/.282/.383 so he'd fit right in.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

The leadoff spot seems like it can only really be improved by calling up Duran and hoping he makes the transition successfully. Everyone we throw in there has been bad because the hitters we have on the ML roster to fill that spot in the lineup are bad. Maybe Wong can demonstrate he is capable of maintaining a .650 OPS or so and we can just ditch Marwin and Santana. I don't think we are going to get any value from those two players over the rest of the season.

edit: I did not realize that Wong will be 26 next year. Why not give him Marwin's job and see what he can give us? Gonzalez has been terrible for two years now.

Not entirely because Cora could just do the natural thing and bat Verdugo leadoff and move up our other top 3 guys one spot, so Devers is hitting 4th instead of 5th. On the one hand, those 4 guys are doing so well that I guess I could understand if Cora didn't want to mess with that part of the order, but on the other hand it seems kinda crazy that we are losing a Xander/Devers AB here and there in favor of an extra Hernandez/whoever AB.

As to your other point, Marwin has obviously been terrible offensively but his defense is good enough (and he's positionally versatile enough) that I think the Sox need to keep him on the roster in that late-inning utility role. But I don't see the point of carrying both Marwin and Santana if neither of them are hitting so, yes, sending Santana back to AAA is the obvious move when they need to free up a spot on the ML roster.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Not entirely because Cora could just do the natural thing and bat Verdugo leadoff and move up our other top 3 guys one spot, so Devers is hitting 4th instead of 5th. On the one hand, those 4 guys are doing so well that I guess I could understand if Cora didn't want to mess with that part of the order, but on the other hand it seems kinda crazy that we are losing a Xander/Devers AB here and there in favor of an extra Hernandez/whoever AB.

As to your other point, Marwin has obviously been terrible offensively but his defense is good enough (and he's positionally versatile enough) that I think the Sox need to keep him on the roster in that late-inning utility role. But I don't see the point of carrying both Marwin and Santana if neither of them are hitting so, yes, sending Santana back to AAA is the obvious move when they need to free up a spot on the ML roster.

I agree that Santana should be the first to go, but they can't send him back to AAA. At least not if he doesn't consent to the assignment (he has options left but also veto power for being a 5 year vet). If he goes, he's gone for good. Which isn't really a big loss.

 

[BaseballJones]

I agree that Santana should be the first to go, but they can't send him back to AAA. At least not if he doesn't consent to the assignment (he has options left but also veto power for being a 5 year vet). If he goes, he's gone for good. Which isn't really a big loss.

Not a huge loss, but still...you don't like losing players for nothing if you can help it.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Not a huge loss, but still...you don't like losing players for nothing if you can help it.

You think Santana has trade value? He's slashing .145/.230/.266 over the last two years. I know Bloom was banking on a return to his 2019 form where he seemed to figure something out, but that season is looking more and more like the outlier rather than a new normal.

2015-2018 = 55 OPS+
2019 = 112 OPS+
2020-2021 = 36 OPS+

He's toast.

 

[cantor44]

Not entirely because Cora could just do the natural thing and bat Verdugo leadoff and move up our other top 3 guys one spot, so Devers is hitting 4th instead of 5th. On the one hand, those 4 guys are doing so well that I guess I could understand if Cora didn't want to mess with that part of the order, but on the other hand it seems kinda crazy that we are losing a Xander/Devers AB here and there in favor of an extra Hernandez/whoever AB.

As to your other point, Marwin has obviously been terrible offensively but his defense is good enough (and he's positionally versatile enough) that I think the Sox need to keep him on the roster in that late-inning utility role. But I don't see the point of carrying both Marwin and Santana if neither of them are hitting so, yes, sending Santana back to AAA is the obvious move when they need to free up a spot on the ML roster.

I agree with all of this. In the absence of Duran, move Verdugo up, and then everyone else behind him. Maybe I underestimate the actual value of major league players feeling "comfortable." But it seems kind of absurd to me that such an obvious adjustment - that would have real world impact - isn't made in order to indulge they alleged need for comfort with an abstraction (hitting 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 - it's all the same when you're actually hitting). I mean, these are the best and highest paid athletes in their sport in the world. You think they could deal with hitting in a different spot (I know they can deal).

If I were manager (and occasionally, when I'm playing Strat-o-matic with my nephew, for a millisecond at least, I believe that I am) I'd do this:
Verdguo-Bogaerts-Devers-Martinez-Renfroe....Or, if Duran keeps ascending: Duran-Bogaerts-Devers-Martinez-Verdugo-Renfroe ... In each instance you get the L-R-L thing going (maybe even more important in the 3-batters rule era). Also, X and Devers both better hitters than JD now and I want them getting more at bats.

Gonzalez should stay - he's too important defensively and could serve in the Pee Wee Reese role ... (Santana meanwhile ...)

 

[OurF'ingCity]

I agree that Santana should be the first to go, but they can't send him back to AAA. At least not if he doesn't consent to the assignment (he has options left but also veto power for being a 5 year vet). If he goes, he's gone for good. Which isn't really a big loss.

Oh yeah, good point. I keep forgetting Santana has been around that long.

Still, Santana and Workman are the obvious two cuts to make when they need a roster spot (Chavis will no doubt be optioned when Arroyo comes off the IL). Neither of them have any trade value and releasing them for nothing isn't going to, and shouldn't, keep Bloom up at night.

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

At the moment the only things that Santana seems to offer over Franchy is speed and defensive flexibility. Franchy now has over 100 ABs in Worcester, which is obviously still a SSS, but I don't see why you wouldn't call him up at the expense of cutting Santana. At least once they head to the West Coast later this week if you would like his return to happen under the cover of West Coast starting times.

 

[shaggydog2000]

At the moment the only things that Santana seems to offer over Franchy is speed and defensive flexibility. Franchy now has over 100 ABs in Worcester, which is obviously still a SSS, but I don't see why you wouldn't call him up at the expense of cutting Santana. At least once they head to the West Coast later this week if you would like his return to happen under the cover of West Coast starting times.

I'd think that barring an injury call-up (the way Wong was) Franchy would be the next guy up. They may want to keep Duran down for a bit longer so he can play in the Olympics and then they would bring him up after that in mid August if everything is still going well for him.

 

[Al Zarilla]

I agree with all of this. In the absence of Duran, move Verdugo up, and then everyone else behind him. Maybe I underestimate the actual value of major league players feeling "comfortable." But it seems kind of absurd to me that such an obvious adjustment - that would have real world impact - isn't made in order to indulge they alleged need for comfort with an abstraction (hitting 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 - it's all the same when you're actually hitting). I mean, these are the best and highest paid athletes in their sport in the world. You think they could deal with hitting in a different spot (I know they can deal).

If I were manager (and occasionally, when I'm playing Strat-o-matic with my nephew, for a millisecond at least, I believe that I am) I'd do this:
Verdguo-Bogaerts-Devers-Martinez-Renfroe....Or, if Duran keeps ascending: Duran-Bogaerts-Devers-Martinez-Verdugo-Renfroe ... In each instance you get the L-R-L thing going (maybe even more important in the 3-batters rule era). Also, X and Devers both better hitters than JD now and I want them getting more at bats.

Gonzalez should stay - he's too important defensively and could serve in the Pee Wee Reese role ... (Santana meanwhile ...)

Man, I wish we had Pee Wee Reese, 68.5 BWAR hall of fame shortstop, even with missing three full years of his mid-20s to WWII. I guess you'd move X to 2B. Between seasons. Did Pokey Reese spellcheck to Pee Wee Reese?

 

[BaseballJones]

You think Santana has trade value?

No.

He's slashing .145/.230/.266 over the last two years. I know Bloom was banking on a return to his 2019 form where he seemed to figure something out, but that season is looking more and more like the outlier rather than a new normal.

2015-2018 = 55 OPS+
2019 = 112 OPS+
2020-2021 = 36 OPS+

He's toast.

I wasn't saying trade him. I just don't prefer to lose a player who could possibly help out for nothing.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

No.



I wasn't saying trade him. I just don't prefer to lose a player who could possibly help out for nothing.

He's actually hurting he team by being on the roster.

 

[BaseballJones]

He's actually hurting he team by being on the roster.

Agreed. I wish they could send him down and put him in AAA. I'd rather he not get picked up by someone else because I think he could still provide some value down the road.

 

[Max Power]

Now, take the next step with this fact. How does one improve the defense? Swapping out players, or if there's an experiential/statistical basis for it, drilling players to improve in certain areas. (Keeping in mind there are physical ceilings. One cannot, mid-season, reasonably expect to upgrade the reaction time or arm strength of an outfielder, saying "Just say, 'I think I can,' more often before you throw, JD." Or, "Will your self to have more range Enrique Hernandez, you darling you who-worshiped-me-as-a-boy.")

How does one improve the offense? Cora moves a pencil over a piece of paper.

Defense improves during the season all the time. I assume you've actually watched Devers shit all over himself for the first month or two every year and then get into a rhythm. I assume that just comes from getting some number of weeks of regular playing time at full game speed.

As the manager Cora can try to get guys consistent playing time at one position to see if they improve. The problem is that the guys who most need to improve, Kike in center and Dalbec at first, aren't hitting well enough to get consistent playing time. Marwin is pretty good at second, but he's hitting like Tony Clark in 2002. There's only so much you can do to help the defense when everyone on the bench hits like a pitcher.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Defense improves during the season all the time. I assume you've actually watched Devers shit all over himself for the first month or two every year and then get into a rhythm. I assume that just comes from getting some number of weeks of regular playing time at full game speed.

As the manager Cora can try to get guys consistent playing time at one position to see if they improve. The problem is that the guys who most need to improve, Kike in center and Dalbec at first, aren't hitting well enough to get consistent playing time. Marwin is pretty good at second, but he's hitting like Tony Clark in 2002. There's only so much you can do to help the defense when everyone on the bench hits like a pitcher.

Calling Duran up may improve the offense but it won't improve the defense. I don't really see any internal options to improve the defense so hoping defense just improves as the season progresses might be the best option.

Calling Duran up may make the D worse as Enrique would probably replace Marwin. The possible offensive improvement could more than offset that though.

 

[Yo La Tengo]

If I were manager (and occasionally, when I'm playing Strat-o-matic with my nephew, for a millisecond at least, I believe that I am) I'd do this:
Verdguo-Bogaerts-Devers-Martinez-Renfroe....

Do we know if any of these players has expressed that they would not want to hit in these modified slots?

Or, does anyone have a statistical or strategic rationale to not bump up the lineup with Verdugo leading off?

In 2020, Verdugo led off in 33 of the club’s final 47 games, and hit .304 with an .804 OPS in 152 plate appearances. I think there was some discussion of him being hesitant to take on the role (and he called hitting lead off "a rollercoaster") but I haven't found anything more than that.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Do we know if any of these players has expressed that they would not want to hit in these modified slots?

Or, does anyone have a statistical or strategic rationale to not bump up the lineup with Verdugo leading off?

In 2020, Verdugo led off in 33 of the club’s final 47 games, and hit .304 with an .804 OPS in 152 plate appearances. I think there was some discussion of him being hesitant to take on the role (and he called hitting lead off "a rollercoaster") but I haven't found anything more than that.

I can't think of a rationale for not bumping 2-5 to 1-4. Like you say, Verdugo led off a bunch last season and excelled. Devers hit second for much of 2019 and excelled (1.032 OPS hitting second that year). Bogaerts has hit third more often than any other spot in his career (.845 OPS), though has a higher career OPS in the cleanup spot (.941).

Seems like more stubbornness on Cora's part than anything else that this hasn't happened already.

 

[LesterFan]

Here are the AL Defensive Runs Saved leaders. Red Sox are 6th in the AL and 17th in the majors. So while they're not great, they're not horrible either. The worst defenders on the team are Bogaerts (-10 DRS, -8 OAA) and Dalbec (-8 DRS, -6 OAA). Obviously Bogaerts isn't going anywhere. First base is an area of need given Dalbec isn't hitting much and killing them on defense. Looking at 2B, the combination of Arroyo, Marwin, Hernandez have a +5 DRS so they've been fine there. Devers has 0 DRS and -4 OAA, but like Bogaerts, isn't going anywhere.

Looking at the outfield, Renfroe has been solid at +5 DRS and 0 OAA. Verdugo has 0 DRS in RF in the limited time he's played there. In CF, Hernandez has been solid at +4 DRS and +2 OAA. Now Verdugo, on the other hand, you can tell doesn't look comfortable in CF and the metrics reflect that as he's -4 DRS and -3 OAA. However, in LF Verdugo is +6 DRS and +1 OAA.

Vazquez has +7 DRS and Plawecki -6.

So how do we improve? A decent first baseman with more experience than Dalbec and keeping Verdugo out of CF to start. We'll have to live with the left side of the infield until more drastic changes are made. It's safe to say they're simply not going to be a great defensive team with this roster. Which is fine, as long as they continue to hit and pitch.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

Hasn't it been posted here like a million times that over the course fo a season, the batting order makes very little difference? Sure we might get a tiny, tiny bit of improvement by moving the good hitters up one spot, but according to what's been posted here many times, it's just not going to be worth that much.
If (if!) the good hitters prefer to hit where they have been hitting well all year, then it's not likely to help to move them around. If they all truly don't care, then sure you might get a tiny, tiny boost from getting more plate appearances for better hitters. But it's not going to be a very big effect.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Hasn't it been posted here like a million times that over the course fo a season, the batting order makes very little difference? Sure we might get a tiny, tiny bit of improvement by moving the good hitters up one spot, but according to what's been posted here many times, it's just not going to be worth that much.
If (if!) the good hitters prefer to hit where they have been hitting well all year, then it's not likely to help to move them around. If they all truly don't care, then sure you might get a tiny, tiny boost from getting more plate appearances for better hitters. But it's not going to be a very big effect.

It has been posted here. The difference between even the best and worst extremes of lineup construction isn't even that great, let alone minor tweaks like this.

The fact that Cora hasn't changed it is frankly proof that players have preferences that he knows enough to favor over the minor statistical bump that the tweak would provide (in a vacuum).

 

[Yo La Tengo]

Hasn't it been posted here like a million times that over the course fo a season, the batting order makes very little difference? Sure we might get a tiny, tiny bit of improvement by moving the good hitters up one spot, but according to what's been posted here many times, it's just not going to be worth that much.
If (if!) the good hitters prefer to hit where they have been hitting well all year, then it's not likely to help to move them around. If they all truly don't care, then sure you might get a tiny, tiny boost from getting more plate appearances for better hitters. But it's not going to be a very big effect.

If I remember correctly, the numbers were that the 1 slot gets ~150 more plate appearances than the 9 slot and that batting order matters more on a team with very good and very bad hitters. I also recall reading that swapping a very good lead off hitter for a poor #9 hitter would likely result in a very small change in runs scored by the team.

Considering how bad the numbers from the lead off spot have been, batting order might matter more to this team than others, but I don't think over the course of a season it will have a very big impact.

That being said, unless there are concerns by the players, I don't understand why a team would not put forth its optimal line up. Which is what lead to my question in my original post.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

If I remember correctly, the numbers were that the 1 slot gets ~150 more plate appearances than the 9 slot and that batting order matters more on a team with very good and very bad hitters. I also recall reading that swapping a very good lead off hitter for a poor #9 hitter would likely result in a very small change in runs scored by the team.

Considering how bad the numbers from the lead off spot have been, batting order might matter more to this team than others, but I don't think over the course of a season it will have a very big impact.

That being said, unless there are concerns by the players, I don't understand why a team would not put forth its optimal line up. Which is what lead to my question in my original post.

To me, the difference in plate appearances is the biggest factor in wanting the change. Much rather have Verdugo and Devers getting one more PA in a game than Hernandez or Santana. Maybe it doesn't work out to that many more runs over the course of a season, but I have to think having a few more games where the first inning doesn't start with an automatic out might generate more early offense which gives the starters a bit more wiggle room to relax and perhaps get deeper into games and take pressure of the pen. Like a butterfly flapping its wings could change the whole world.

 

[8slim]

Hasn't it been posted here like a million times that over the course fo a season, the batting order makes very little difference? Sure we might get a tiny, tiny bit of improvement by moving the good hitters up one spot, but according to what's been posted here many times, it's just not going to be worth that much.
If (if!) the good hitters prefer to hit where they have been hitting well all year, then it's not likely to help to move them around. If they all truly don't care, then sure you might get a tiny, tiny boost from getting more plate appearances for better hitters. But it's not going to be a very big effect.

Agreed, obviously I'd prefer to see our best hitters get a few more PAs. However, Cora's strength is being dialed in to the various mentalities of his players. If he truly believes that Verdugo is more comfortable not batting lead-off, and that in turn makes him more productive, than so be it.

 

[8slim]

Agreed. I wish they could send him down and put him in AAA. I'd rather he not get picked up by someone else because I think he could still provide some value down the road.

If that were to happen, I think you just tip your cap to whatever franchise can get value from Danny Santana. It sure doesn't appear that the Sox are going to be that franchise. At the moment it would literally be near-impossible for the Sox to replace him with someone worse. I hope he's gone ASAP.

 

[bosockboy]

If that were to happen, I think you just tip your cap to whatever franchise can get value from Danny Santana. It sure doesn't appear that the Sox are going to be that franchise. At the moment it would literally be near-impossible for the Sox to replace him with someone worse. I hope he's gone ASAP.

Right. Do what’s best for us. That value isn’t happening here, and probably 10-15% chance at best it happens anywhere else. Cut the cord.

 

[YTF]

If that were to happen, I think you just tip your cap to whatever franchise can get value from Danny Santana. It sure doesn't appear that the Sox are going to be that franchise. At the moment it would literally be near-impossible for the Sox to replace him with someone worse. I hope he's gone ASAP.

Agreed, it's hard to worry about the future success of last guy on your bench who's largely a non contributor to your club. The risk in signing him was lower than the risk in keeping him.

 

[Rovin Romine]

If that were to happen, I think you just tip your cap to whatever franchise can get value from Danny Santana. It sure doesn't appear that the Sox are going to be that franchise. At the moment it would literally be near-impossible for the Sox to replace him with someone worse. I hope he's gone ASAP.

Danny, the Elmers Orange Tips are on the line - they think you'll really be able to help them!

 

[Rovin Romine]

Agreed, obviously I'd prefer to see our best hitters get a few more PAs. However, Cora's strength is being dialed in to the various mentalities of his players. If he truly believes that Verdugo is more comfortable not batting lead-off, and that in turn makes him more productive, than so be it.

There's probably some truth to this - but I suspect player mentalities are somewhat adaptable with time. Possibly there's a residual tension in how players view the slots themselves, changing their game to the traditional line-up concepts in some way.

Even so, I think it's unwise to spot an opposing pitcher an auto-out in the first. I'm not sure how one would measure these things, but Cole was clearly rattled right off the bat yesterday.

My other thought is it's hard to buy the argument that a lineup with one high OBP guys in front of high slugging guys is basically the same as a pair of crappy ones (9 and 1 spot) in front of the same. Granted, you get some arbitrary divisions as to who leads off any inning, but it seems somewhat counter-intuitive to me. And far more so if you're arguing that crappy #1 isn't moving somewhere else in the lineup, but woud be completely replaced by a (one hopes) league average OBP guy or better.

 

[8slim]

There's probably some truth to this - but I suspect player mentalities are somewhat adaptable with time. Possibly there's a residual tension in how players view the slots themselves, changing their game to the traditional line-up concepts in some way.

Even so, I think it's unwise to spot an opposing pitcher an auto-out in the first. I'm not sure how one would measure these things, but Cole was clearly rattled right off the bat yesterday.

My other thought is it's hard to buy the argument that a lineup with one high OBP guys in front of high slugging guys is basically the same as a pair of crappy ones (9 and 1 spot) in front of the same. Granted, you get some arbitrary divisions as to who leads off any inning, but it seems somewhat counter-intuitive to me. And far more so if you're arguing that crappy #1 isn't moving somewhere else in the lineup, but woud be completely replaced by a (one hopes) league average OBP guy or better.

Needless to say, no one is going to argue that the black hole we have in the lead off spot is a good thing. I've just watched too many players get in their own heads about lineup position to not believe that its a real thing. I don't doubt that over time Cora could get a guy like Verdugo to be more comfortable hitting in the lead off spot. But I'm sure his calculus is based on determining if that's worth doing now, with a risk that it sends Verdugo into a slump.

I guess that since we're in first place, hitting well and scoring runs, that I can't get too worked up over it at the moment. Although as far as leadoff hitters go, I'd prefer Tito Santana to Danny Santana at this point.

 

[Rovin Romine]

I guess that since we're in first place, hitting well and scoring runs, that I can't get too worked up over it at the moment.

I simply do not understand this.

In the AL, by OPS+ we're tied for 5th with two other teams, though we're 3rd in runs.

We're also 5th in run differential.

It's not like this is some kind of epic gestalt offense that we dare not tinker with by replacing the fungible plucky whomever in the lead off spot.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Agreed, obviously I'd prefer to see our best hitters get a few more PAs. However, Cora's strength is being dialed in to the various mentalities of his players. If he truly believes that Verdugo is more comfortable not batting lead-off, and that in turn makes him more productive, than so be it.

Cora could play the "Mookie Betts and George Springer have batted leadoff for teams I have been associated with" card with Verdugo. World Series winners both. But, maybe it's a tribute to Cora that if a guy just doesn't want to hit leadoff, he doesn't force it.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Cora could play the "Mookie Betts and George Springer have batted leadoff for teams I have been associated with" card with Verdugo. World Series winners both. But, maybe it's a tribute to Cora that if a guy just doesn't want to hit leadoff, he doesn't force it.

Or maybe it's a sign of weakness as a leader.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Or maybe it's a sign of weakness as a leader.

I kind of feel that's not the case, but WDIK.

 

[effectivelywild]

Or maybe it's a sign of weakness as a leader.

Or MAYBE it's a sign of strength as a leader.

I mean, if we're conjecturing on what batting order says about Cora's strengths and weaknesses as a leader, why not make it positive? It's got just as ground to stand on as the reverse, ya know?

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Or MAYBE it's a sign of strength as a leader.

I mean, if we're conjecturing on what batting order says about Cora's strengths and weaknesses as a leader, why not make it positive? It's got just as ground to stand on as the reverse, ya know?

Right, that's what he said, and I suggested we actually think about other possibilities. If you choose not to, that's your prerogative. But considering the possibility that Cora isn't a perfect leader should be a fairly natural thought exercise. Especially when he makes decisions that we on the outside don't understand or agree with. "Maybe" is all over this board. Cora shouldn't be exempt from it.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Agreed, obviously I'd prefer to see our best hitters get a few more PAs. However, Cora's strength is being dialed in to the various mentalities of his players. If he truly believes that Verdugo is more comfortable not batting lead-off, and that in turn makes him more productive, than so be it.

I have a hard time believing that it's Verdugo driving the decision to bat him second. As has been mentioned, he hit leadoff a bunch last year and did well in the job (career .760 OPS as a lead off hitter vs career .777 OPS hitting second). And he seems to have no trouble at all bouncing from left to center to right defensively without concerns of comfort. Just seems like an adaptable guy who just wants to be in the lineup and playing every day no matter the circumstances.

I'm sure Cora has his reasons for constructing the lineup the way he does, and maybe he thinks that's Verdugo's comfort spot, but there's not much to back it up.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Vazquez should bat lead off. His OBP doesn’t suck as much as others who have had the chance, and at least it would put our best base stealer at the top of the lineup (*ducking*).

 

[8slim]

I simply do not understand this.

In the AL, by OPS+ we're tied for 5th with two other teams, though we're 3rd in runs.

We're also 5th in run differential.

It's not like this is some kind of epic gestalt offense that we dare not tinker with by replacing the fungible plucky whomever in the lead off spot.

I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe I’m just in a perpetual grateful mood these days, but I never expected the Sox to be playing this well and it’s making a great summer even better. I like Cora a lot and I think he’s an excellent manager. I give him the benefit of the doubt, and I’m not losing sleep over his lead off hitter decision.

He’s not Jimy Williams, is what I’m saying.

 

[Rovin Romine]

He’s not Jimy Williams, is what I’m saying.

I hate that rube. But at least he had integrity and wasn't a proven cheater who constantly sucks up to the press.

YMMV. I know guys like Cora. Hopefully he won't be caught red-handed fucking up again. And I can just suffer listening to everyone thinking he's some kind of genius. And with that I'm out.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I hate that rube. But at least he had integrity and wasn't a proven cheater who constantly sucks up to the press.

YMMV. I know guys like Cora. Hopefully he won't be caught red-handed fucking up again. And I can just suffer listening to everyone thinking he's some kind of genius. And with that I'm out.

Can we form a club?

 

[8slim]

I hate that rube. But at least he had integrity and wasn't a proven cheater who constantly sucks up to the press.

YMMV. I know guys like Cora. Hopefully he won't be caught red-handed fucking up again. And I can just suffer listening to everyone thinking he's some kind of genius. And with that I'm out.

Oh, I didn’t realize I stumbled into a meeting of the He-Man Cora Haters club. I’ll calibrate my future interactions with you guys accordingly.

 

[MuzzyField]

Yes, the Jimy Williams era, a colossal fucking waste of time AND quality Pedro.

Jimy Williams greatest contribution to the Boston Red Sox was the day he was fired.

Good Times!

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Yes, the Jimy Williams era, a colossal fucking waste of time AND quality Pedro.

Jimy Williams greatest contribution to the Boston Red Sox was the day he was fired.

Good Times!

Plus, he spelled his name wrong

 

[E5 Yaz]

Plus, he spelled his name wrong

With one L?

 

[cantor44]

Cora could play the "Mookie Betts and George Springer have batted leadoff for teams I have been associated with" card with Verdugo. World Series winners both. But, maybe it's a tribute to Cora that if a guy just doesn't want to hit leadoff, he doesn't force it.

You might be right about Cora deferring to player preference. If so, I just don't get that. These are professional athletes being paid lots and lots of money. They should do what's best for the team. From the individual hitter's point of view, it's an abstraction where they hit, and after the first inning, basically arbitrary. The only reality that's guaranteed is that the 1-3 hitters will hit in the first inning. That's it. Not much else is guaranteed, aside from who hits before or after you, and the line up is just a wheel going around and around. From the player perspective IT SHOULDN'T MATTER, line up placement has no physical impact on the event of hitting. From the team perspective, indeed, it does matter, to have their best hitters hit more than their weakest hitters, obviously.

You might say it's considerate of Cora. Though ... what other preferences should he defer to? Only coming into the game in a clean inning? Only closing? Preferring to play shortstop (that was me in Little League)? ...If a player is totally screwed up by hitting, say, second instead of third, then I'm not sure that player has the psychological goods to be an elite athlete!

 

[cantor44]

I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe I’m just in a perpetual grateful mood these days, but I never expected the Sox to be playing this well and it’s making a great summer even better. I like Cora a lot and I think he’s an excellent manager. I give him the benefit of the doubt, and I’m not losing sleep over his lead off hitter decision.

He’s not Jimy Williams, is what I’m saying.

I like Cora, too! Doesn't mean he can't be criticized here and there. It's not an either/or! Very happy Cora is the manager. Been watching the Sox since the 1975 season and they've had only 2 good managers, in my mind, in that entire time: Francona and Cora. But on one is perfect.

For my Italian relatives in Italy, critiquing a meal is expected and it isn't rude: could have been more al dente, a touch more salt, use chili peppers. It's their LOVE of food that engenders criticism: a total and specific engagement as a byproduct of devotion.