The Red Sox ARE good. So now what?

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
I'd think that barring an injury call-up (the way Wong was) Franchy would be the next guy up. They may want to keep Duran down for a bit longer so he can play in the Olympics and then they would bring him up after that in mid August if everything is still going well for him.
I think they should pull the trigger on Duran next:

Minor league totals -

Ellsbury: 273 G, 1244 PA, 1097 AB, 312-387-424-811, 11 HR, 109 SB
Duran: 235 G, 1055 PA, 954 AB, 314-375-468-842, 21 HR, 78 SB

(Note that 20 of Ellsbury's games were rehab appearances after he was an established major leaguer.)
 

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,566
I think they should pull the trigger on Duran next:

Minor league totals -

Ellsbury: 273 G, 1244 PA, 1097 AB, 312-387-424-811, 11 HR, 109 SB
Duran: 235 G, 1055 PA, 954 AB, 314-375-468-842, 21 HR, 78 SB

(Note that 20 of Ellsbury's games were rehab appearances after he was an established major leaguer.)
Minor league totals seem like a weird number to use while also ignoring level of play and Duran's year off from competitive games and change in batting profile. Ellsbury was called up as an injury replacement for short stints but didn't come up to stay until September of 2007, and ended up with over 400 PA in AAA that year, which is over twice as many as Duran has right now (175). Barring injury I think they're going to let Duran play in the Olympics and then bring him up. I'm not sure of that, and I'm not necessarily saying it's the best plan, but that looks like the plan to me. I assume they'll have some short Olympic training camp before heading over, so I'd think he'd be heading out in a few weeks and we'll know then. I would think that when Duran was chosen for the qualifying tournament it was with the understanding that he would be made available for the actual olympic tournament as well. I would think that instead of blowing up that plan they would bring back Franchy as a first option if they wanted another outfielder.
 

effectivelywild

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
466
Right, that's what he said, and I suggested we actually think about other possibilities. If you choose not to, that's your prerogative. But considering the possibility that Cora isn't a perfect leader should be a fairly natural thought exercise. Especially when he makes decisions that we on the outside don't understand or agree with. "Maybe" is all over this board. Cora shouldn't be exempt from it.
Well, I guess my question is "How would this show weakness as a leader?" Is it showing unwillingness to challenge players? Perhaps demonstrating that his players would refuse to go out of their comfort zone? I'm all for questioning things and considering other possibilities, but I do think that the question of "Is this actually a sign of weakness?" deserves some addition elaboration rather than just stating it and expecting it to be evident.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
Minor league totals seem like a weird number to use while also ignoring level of play and Duran's year off from competitive games and change in batting profile. Ellsbury was called up as an injury replacement for short stints but didn't come up to stay until September of 2007, and ended up with over 400 PA in AAA that year, which is over twice as many as Duran has right now (175). Barring injury I think they're going to let Duran play in the Olympics and then bring him up. I'm not sure of that, and I'm not necessarily saying it's the best plan, but that looks like the plan to me. I assume they'll have some short Olympic training camp before heading over, so I'd think he'd be heading out in a few weeks and we'll know then. I would think that when Duran was chosen for the qualifying tournament it was with the understanding that he would be made available for the actual olympic tournament as well. I would think that instead of blowing up that plan they would bring back Franchy as a first option if they wanted another outfielder.
Does look that way, yes.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
24,903
Unreal America
I like Cora, too! Doesn't mean he can't be criticized here and there. It's not an either/or! Very happy Cora is the manager. Been watching the Sox since the 1975 season and they've had only 2 good managers, in my mind, in that entire time: Francona and Cora. But on one is perfect.

For my Italian relatives in Italy, critiquing a meal is expected and it isn't rude: could have been more al dente, a touch more salt, use chili peppers. It's their LOVE of food that engenders criticism: a total and specific engagement as a byproduct of devotion.
I'd never suggest Cora shouldn't be criticized. In this case, it seems the critiques from some are fueled by an over-arching dislike for him. Which is fine of course, people can feel however they want, but it suddenly came across to me as less than genuine about the lead-off situation specifically.
 

Yo La Tengo

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 21, 2005
923
To me, the difference in plate appearances is the biggest factor in wanting the change. Much rather have Verdugo and Devers getting one more PA in a game than Hernandez or Santana. Maybe it doesn't work out to that many more runs over the course of a season, but I have to think having a few more games where the first inning doesn't start with an automatic out might generate more early offense which gives the starters a bit more wiggle room to relax and perhaps get deeper into games and take pressure of the pen. Like a butterfly flapping its wings could change the whole world.
And I think the issue of plate appearances is magnified in a playoff series. Hopefully Hernandez makes it a moot point by continuing to lead off each game with a homer.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,497
around the way
I'd never suggest Cora shouldn't be criticized. In this case, it seems the critiques from some are fueled by an over-arching dislike for him. Which is fine of course, people can feel however they want, but it suddenly came across to me as less than genuine about the lead-off situation specifically.
It was 70% anti-Cora, 20% Suck-It-Up-Pansies, and 10% general contrarian.
 

Hank Scorpio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 1, 2013
6,991
Salem, NH
Chaim should approach the trading deadline as if it's during the all-star break. In the ~3 weeks between the ASB and trading dealine, the Sox schedule is:

4 @ MFY
3 @ TOR
4 v MFY
4 v Toronto
3 @ TB

Tough schedule after the break as well. Of the 71 games - 53 are against teams currently .500 or better, and only 18 are against sub .500 teams
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,230
Portland
Regardless of who is to praise or criticize, this is not an eye poppingly talented team on paper and they are still getting shit done despite that. I'm meh on Cora since he was rehired and that doubt that he is on the level is always going to be there, but the players like him and they are winning, seemingly ahead of schedule. It's more fun to praise the new GM, so I'm tossing most of it his way. Bloom has been an "A" for me so far. Even Blaze Jordan is batting .500.

The only pseudo-expensive whiff has been Richards but he takes the ball and manages to grit out 5+ innings more often than not. If he figures it out, he may manage to still earn that 10 mill too. You can live with any other failures because they cost little in money or assets and are easily replaced.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

has big, douchey shoulders
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Regardless of who is to praise or criticize, this is not an eye poppingly talented team on paper and they are still getting shit done despite that. I'm meh on Cora since he was rehired and that doubt that he is on the level is always going to be there, but the players like him and they are winning, seemingly ahead of schedule. It's more fun to praise the new GM, so I'm tossing most of it his way. Bloom has been an "A" for me so far. Even Blaze Jordan is batting .500.

The only pseudo-expensive whiff has been Richards but he takes the ball and manages to grit out 5+ innings more often than not. If he figures it out, he may manage to still earn that 10 mill too. You can live with any other failures because they cost little in money or assets and are easily replaced.
If you want to be underwhelmed, see if you eyes pop when you look at the talent on paper of the best record in baseball, the Giants. Or the Rays and A's, for that matter. I'm not really sure what it says, other than in this era of launch angle and power bullpen arms, the definition of eye popping talent may be changing a bit. And who knows how declining spin rates will change that yet again.

I agree that Bloom has been terrific. Not every move is going to be perfect, but his batting average is very good so far. I'm very interested to see how he handles three things moving forward
1. The draft, with an abnormally high pick
2. The trade deadline--it wouldn't surprise me if we're both buyers and sellers
3. Potential extensions for Devers, Verdugo, and possibly X

I know it's fun to crap on the Rays, but they've been an extremely well run organization. Taking those basic principles and applying them to a team with money could really make for a true model franchise. I'm looking forward to seeing how he plays it out
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
19,984
St. Louis, MO
If you want to be underwhelmed, see if you eyes pop when you look at the talent on paper of the best record in baseball, the Giants. Or the Rays and A's, for that matter. I'm not really sure what it says, other than in this era of launch angle and power bullpen arms, the definition of eye popping talent may be changing a bit. And who knows how declining spin rates will change that yet again.

I agree that Bloom has been terrific. Not every move is going to be perfect, but his batting average is very good so far. I'm very interested to see how he handles three things moving forward
1. The draft, with an abnormally high pick
2. The trade deadline--it wouldn't surprise me if we're both buyers and sellers
3. Potential extensions for Devers, Verdugo, and possibly X

I know it's fun to crap on the Rays, but they've been an extremely well run organization. Taking those basic principles and applying them to a team with money could really make for a true model franchise. I'm looking forward to seeing how he plays it out
Yep. Dodgers East here we come.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,497
around the way
I agree that Bloom has been terrific. Not every move is going to be perfect, but his batting average is very good so far. I'm very interested to see how he handles three things moving forward
1. The draft, with an abnormally high pick
2. The trade deadline--it wouldn't surprise me if we're both buyers and sellers
3. Potential extensions for Devers, Verdugo, and possibly X
His batting average and his OBP have been excellent so far. What you want to see is if he has any power, which is fair. The next month or so should show that.

He can show us some of that power by taking BPA in the draft and not missing out on elite talent for signability depth guys. That, on top of the Mookie return, should make us all feel better. Any trade deadline moves are icing on the cake imo.
 

8slim

has trust issues
SoSH Member
Nov 6, 2001
24,903
Unreal America
Regardless of who is to praise or criticize, this is not an eye poppingly talented team on paper and they are still getting shit done despite that. I'm meh on Cora since he was rehired and that doubt that he is on the level is always going to be there, but the players like him and they are winning, seemingly ahead of schedule. It's more fun to praise the new GM, so I'm tossing most of it his way. Bloom has been an "A" for me so far. Even Blaze Jordan is batting .500.

The only pseudo-expensive whiff has been Richards but he takes the ball and manages to grit out 5+ innings more often than not. If he figures it out, he may manage to still earn that 10 mill too. You can live with any other failures because they cost little in money or assets and are easily replaced.
I think in this era of baseball, a team that can trot out a lineup with Bogaerts, Martinez, Devers, Verdugo and Vasquez is going to be somewhat competitive, assuming they're all hitting well (and the pitching isn't a total disaster, like 2020). Offensively that's fairly "eye popping", at least to me. Bloom gets much credit for assembling a competent starting rotation, for sure. I never expected this starting 5 would be as relatively good as they've been. Needless to say, that is what has taken us from "somewhat competitive" to division leader. Basically, I think both Cora and Bloom are functioning at very high levels, as far as management contributions go.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,671
Boston's current AL rankings:

R - #2
H - #2
2b - #1
3b - #9
HR - #6
AVG - #3
OBP - #4
SLG - #3
OPS - #3
OPS+ - #4
TB - #2
RA - #8
ERA - #7
SV - #1
ERA+ - #6
FIP - #4
WHIP - #12
K/9 - #4

So very good hitting and pretty good pitching except for WHIP. Solid across the board, really.
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 7, 2015
320
this is not an eye poppingly talented team on paper and they are still getting shit done despite that.
I'm thinking of a team from another year who looked soooo bad "on paper" that if you search "AL East Predictions" for that year, you'll find this team was pegged as dead-last or second-to-last. I am thinking of the 2013 Boston Red Sox.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,671
I'm thinking of a team from another year who looked soooo bad "on paper" that if you search "AL East Predictions" for that year, you'll find this team was pegged as dead-last or second-to-last. I am thinking of the 2013 Boston Red Sox.
That's the apt comparison. This team is like that team. Hopefully it ends up the same way.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,671
Key places to improve:

1b. Either Dalbec gets it in gear or they should make a move here. Dalbec is up to 10 homers and an 83 ops+. That's not good but it's at least not what it was earlier in the season. Still...tons of room for improvement there.

CF/leadoff. Kiké is a good overall baseball player that can help in a number of ways, but as a primary CF he's just not up to par. 92 ops+ would be fine if his defense was better in CF.

SP. Richards may have figured something out but the starting rotation seems to be very spotty. Sale arriving obviously could help a TON. And Houck could provide value as well. Still, if I was Bloom I'd be on the lookout for options here.

Of course I'd happily take any improvement anywhere, but these are the three key spots. Duran might help with the CF issue, but we will see on that. First base is a problem.

The Sox *could* have in-house solutions for all three spots if you include Casas as a possible improvement over Dalbec. But who knows really. Anyway, those are the three spots I'd be looking to fix if I'm Bloom.
 

ledsox

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 14, 2005
401
Boston's current AL rankings:

R - #2
H - #2
2b - #1
3b - #9
HR - #6
AVG - #3
OBP - #4
SLG - #3
OPS - #3
OPS+ - #4
TB - #2
RA - #8
ERA - #7
SV - #1
ERA+ - #6
FIP - #4
WHIP - #12
K/9 - #4

So very good hitting and pretty good pitching except for WHIP. Solid across the board, really.
Nice. I’ll throw in the baserunning (BsR) stat from Fangraphs. Sox are tied for #3 in the AL with the Rays at +4.2 runs. They are actually a good baserunning team.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,651
I just don't see where this team has the cap space to make any significant additions at the deadline via trade. Sale will be better than Richards so that is a significant improvement. But this team is probably not going deep into the playoffs if ERod doesn't turn it around. If we trade for another SP, where do they go on the roster? I guess we ditch Yacksel when Sale is healthy but I don't know where an additional SP would fit in. Dump Workman? Just say bye to Richards?
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
Key places to improve:

1b. Either Dalbec gets it in gear or they should make a move here. Dalbec is up to 10 homers and an 83 ops+. That's not good but it's at least not what it was earlier in the season. Still...tons of room for improvement there.

CF/leadoff. Kiké is a good overall baseball player that can help in a number of ways, but as a primary CF he's just not up to par. 92 ops+ would be fine if his defense was better in CF.

SP. Richards may have figured something out but the starting rotation seems to be very spotty. Sale arriving obviously could help a TON. And Houck could provide value as well. Still, if I was Bloom I'd be on the lookout for options here.

Of course I'd happily take any improvement anywhere, but these are the three key spots. Duran might help with the CF issue, but we will see on that. First base is a problem.

The Sox *could* have in-house solutions for all three spots if you include Casas as a possible improvement over Dalbec. But who knows really. Anyway, those are the three spots I'd be looking to fix if I'm Bloom.
I would add a second starting pitcher to this list - that is if the team really wants to be championship quality. Maybe if ERod has figured out his approach, he'll be that guy in the second half. So - 1B, CF, and two SP. I think they're four player shy. ...Two of those will come internally - Sale and Duran, by end of July/end of Olympics. That leaves two to go get via trade - another starting pitcher, and at minimum a platoon partner for Dalbec. I suspect that Bloom will - rightly - not empty the cupboards this year. That likely means trading for one of these two remaining needs. Either a SP or a 1B. Which will it be?
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

has big, douchey shoulders
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I just don't see where this team has the cap space to make any significant additions at the deadline via trade. Sale will be better than Richards so that is a significant improvement. But this team is probably not going deep into the playoffs if ERod doesn't turn it around. If we trade for another SP, where do they go on the roster? I guess we ditch Yacksel when Sale is healthy but I don't know where an additional SP would fit in. Dump Workman? Just say bye to Richards?
I'm not sure they will make any significant additions, but they'll do something. Workman is the definition of fungible and will probably go before Yacksel.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,671
I would add a second starting pitcher to this list - that is if the team really wants to be championship quality. Maybe if ERod has figured out his approach, he'll be that guy in the second half. So - 1B, CF, and two SP. I think they're four player shy. ...Two of those will come internally - Sale and Duran, by end of July/end of Olympics. That leaves two to go get via trade - another starting pitcher, and at minimum a platoon partner for Dalbec. I suspect that Bloom will - rightly - not empty the cupboards this year. That likely means trading for one of these two remaining needs. Either a SP or a 1B. Which will it be?
I honestly really like Houck, and his major league experience so far has been outstanding. He's had five starts and only one of them was bad. Most have been excellent. I think he can be a big piece moving forward. And I wonder at what point Whitlock can move into a starting role. Adding his slider makes him incredibly effective.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
I honestly really like Houck, and his major league experience so far has been outstanding. He's had five starts and only one of them was bad. Most have been excellent. I think he can be a big piece moving forward. And I wonder at what point Whitlock can move into a starting role. Adding his slider makes him incredibly effective.
Houck concerns me because the MLB sample is small and his career MiLB stats are okay, but not great. But maybe he's the kind of guy who steps up to the competition. Whitlock would be great in the rotation, but I think they are saving that for 2022. Meanwhile, he's such an important piece in the bullpen, you kinda don't want mess with that ...(2022 rotation could be awesome).
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
19,984
St. Louis, MO
Houck would be perfect to piggyback Sale’s starts. 3 innings every few days. Might be tough to squeeze him and Whitlock onto a staff with similar roles though.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
8,006
Boston, MA
I just don't see where this team has the cap space to make any significant additions at the deadline via trade.
I don't think there are any financial restrictions for this year. They reset the penalties last year and the new ones don't kick in for another 3-4 years, by which time there's going to be a new CBA. If Scherzer didn't cost a ton in prospects, they wouldn't pass on him just to stay below $210 million.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,497
around the way
I don't think there are any financial restrictions for this year. They reset the penalties last year and the new ones don't kick in for another 3-4 years, by which time there's going to be a new CBA. If Scherzer didn't cost a ton in prospects, they wouldn't pass on him just to stay below $210 million.
I agree. If anything, taking a salary dump with a guy might be a great way to add talent without further depleting a farm system that's in the early stages of rebuild. Would not be surprised at all to see that.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,431
I actually think that Houck and Whitlock might be the better pairing.
I suspect Richards also will continue to get the starts with Sale "piggy-backing him" and slowly building up to a Postseason starting role. But a healthy Sale, Eovaldi and ERod (assuming his craptastic bad luck has righted itself after the Yankees game) is a very good playoff rotation. Especially with Houck, Pivetta as the rarely needed 4th starter
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
27,089
Newton
I feel like an underrated piece of the tram offensively and defensively this year had been Arroyo. He gives them a lot when he’s healthy but he seems to have been fairly unlucky in that department thus far.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

has big, douchey shoulders
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I suspect Richards also will continue to get the starts with Sale "piggy-backing him" and slowly building up to a Postseason starting role. But a healthy Sale, Eovaldi and ERod (assuming his craptastic bad luck has righted itself after the Yankees game) is a very good playoff rotation. Especially with Houck, Pivetta as the rarely needed 4th starter
Cora said yesterday that Sale was going to be starting, not relieving when he comes back. It was posted in one of these threads, but I'm not sure which one.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,879
Maine
Cora said yesterday that Sale was going to be starting, not relieving when he comes back. It was posted in one of these threads, but I'm not sure which one.
Yeah, I really don't understand where this notion is coming from that Sale won't be starting when he returns, or that he'll be somehow limited if he does. He's on track for a late July or early August return. Assuming he comes close to maximizing his allotted rehab time in the minors (30 days), he should be at near normal pitch limits by the time he's back. Like say 75-80 pitches at minimum. That's 4-5 innings with normal efficiency, and it's reasonable to think he'll get up to 90-100 pitches an outing by September. I don't think they'll let him push his limits, but they certainly won't baby him upon his return. I don't think he'd stand for it.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I suspect Richards also will continue to get the starts with Sale "piggy-backing him" and slowly building up to a Postseason starting role. But a healthy Sale, Eovaldi and ERod (assuming his craptastic bad luck has righted itself after the Yankees game) is a very good playoff rotation. Especially with Houck, Pivetta as the rarely needed 4th starter
Cora said yesterday that Sale was going to be starting, not relieving when he comes back. It was posted in one of these threads, but I'm not sure which one.
This. Plus why waste Sale when the team is already down 3 or 5 runs? Games like yesterday aren't going to happen all the time, although that was their 26th comefrombehind victory. Let Sale start the game and set the pace.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,423
Miami (oh, Miami!)
It was 70% anti-Cora, 20% Suck-It-Up-Pansies, and 10% general contrarian.
7.3% contrarian. And for the record I'm not "anti-Cora." Cora's done exactly what he's done. What people are willing to ignore/forget or magically attribute to him is another matter. For whatever it's worth he helmed an epic team in 2018. His 2017 and 2019 carry their own weight.

I would add a second starting pitcher to this list - that is if the team really wants to be championship quality. Maybe if ERod has figured out his approach, he'll be that guy in the second half. So - 1B, CF, and two SP. I think they're four player shy. ...Two of those will come internally - Sale and Duran, by end of July/end of Olympics. That leaves two to go get via trade - another starting pitcher, and at minimum a platoon partner for Dalbec. I suspect that Bloom will - rightly - not empty the cupboards this year. That likely means trading for one of these two remaining needs. Either a SP or a 1B. Which will it be?
E-Rod FA 2022

Sale FA 2024/5
Eovaldi FA 2023
Pivetta FA 2025
Houck.

Richards, FA 2022 (cl opt 2023)
Perez, FA 2022 (cl opt 2023)

7 guys for 5 slots. I think we're stocked for the year. . .and don't see what we'd do to clear some space if we got another starter who wasn't lights-out Ace caliber. If Sale returns ramped up to start the final months (and hopefully into the post-season), we'd have:
Sale, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Perez, E-Rod/Richards. (Houck in Wstr).​
If E-Rod gets less unlucky or recovers fully, our depth looks like:
Sale, E-Rod, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Perez. (Richards.)​

Like let's say we can get an Eovaldi type - a plus starter, but not a #1. Who goes in trade (for value) to whom? or who goes into the bullpen?

*E-Rod's been fantastically unlucky, and by ERA+ our worst starter to date. I don't see any good landing spot for him in a trade, unless he got hot. . .but then we'd keep him. Also, unless the team thinks he's done, there's significant value in keeping him and negotiating an extension in-house before he hits the market. So he's in the rotation, like it or not.​
*Sale is coming off of an injury - and would we trade him anyway?​
*Eovaldi might have some trade value to a contender this year or next, and he has bullpen experience - but he's been our best starter. So why remove your #2 after Sale? That new #1 would have to be a heck of an upgrade.​
*Pivetta and Houck are the guys we have the most control over, and would be the most enticing in a trade. Not that we'd have to trade a SP or potential SP. . .but do we put Pivetta in the bullpen when a) Sale returns and b) we get another starter? He's been good. He's part of the future.​
*Richards and Perez are the most sacrificial/fungible. . .Richards the more so since the Great Unsticking. But Perez has been good though. Would someone take Richards? Could he transition to the BP?​

So Richards is likely the odd man out if Sale returns. But if we then trade for a #1? Who gets the hook?


PS - FWIW, this is a team that won't cut bait with Danny Santana with his OPS+ of 32 in 76 PAs. (Franchy's was 36 when demoted, 102 PAs.) Even though they have some OFs who are hitting the ball well in AAA.
 
Last edited:

shaggydog2000

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 5, 2007
11,566
Key places to improve:

1b. Either Dalbec gets it in gear or they should make a move here. Dalbec is up to 10 homers and an 83 ops+. That's not good but it's at least not what it was earlier in the season. Still...tons of room for improvement there.

CF/leadoff. Kiké is a good overall baseball player that can help in a number of ways, but as a primary CF he's just not up to par. 92 ops+ would be fine if his defense was better in CF.

SP. Richards may have figured something out but the starting rotation seems to be very spotty. Sale arriving obviously could help a TON. And Houck could provide value as well. Still, if I was Bloom I'd be on the lookout for options here.

Of course I'd happily take any improvement anywhere, but these are the three key spots. Duran might help with the CF issue, but we will see on that. First base is a problem.

The Sox *could* have in-house solutions for all three spots if you include Casas as a possible improvement over Dalbec. But who knows really. Anyway, those are the three spots I'd be looking to fix if I'm Bloom.
I have feeling they will trade some borderline prospects that would be in a crunch to make the 40 man roster in the offseason at the deadline to acquire a decent 1B. They will probably sit pat with Kike and plan to mix Duran in with him. 2B is currently ok if Arroyo gets healthy.

They're 6th in WAR from CF in the AL, and 8th in WOBA and OPS, so Kike isn't killing them there. 1B is the only position that is glaringly bad compared to the competition, and without viable internal options.

I think Edro is going to straighten things out, his underlying numbers are just too good for his production to stay this bad. With him, Sale, and maybe Houck, this rotation could really be great come the playoffs.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
7.3% contrarian. And for the record I'm not "anti-Cora." Cora's done exactly what he's done. What people are willing to ignore/forget or magically attribute to him is another matter. For whatever it's worth he helmed an epic team in 2018. His 2017 and 2019 carry their own weight.



E-Rod FA 2022

Sale FA 2024/5
Eovaldi FA 2023
Pivetta FA 2025
Houck.

Richards, FA 2022 (cl opt 2023)
Perez, FA 2022 (cl opt 2023)

7 guys for 5 slots. I think we're stocked for the year. . .and don't see what we'd do to clear some space if we got another starter who wasn't lights-out Ace caliber. If Sale returns ramped up to start the final months (and hopefully into the post-season), we'd have:
Sale, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Perez, E-Rod/Richards. (Houck in Wstr).​
If E-Rod gets less unlucky or recovers fully, our depth looks like:
Sale, E-Rod, Eovaldi, Pivetta, Perez. (Richards.)​

Like let's say we can get an Eovaldi type - a plus starter, but not a #1. Who goes in trade (for value) to whom? or who goes into the bullpen?

*E-Rod's been fantastically unlucky, and by ERA+ our worst starter to date. I don't see any good landing spot for him in a trade, unless he got hot. . .but then we'd keep him. Also, unless the team thinks he's done, there's significant value in keeping him and negotiating an extension in-house before he hits the market. So he's in the rotation, like it or not.​
*Sale is coming off of an injury - and would we trade him anyway?​
*Eovaldi might have some trade value to a contender this year or next, and he has bullpen experience - but he's been our best starter. So why remove your #2 after Sale? That new #1 would have to be a heck of an upgrade.​
*Pivetta and Houck are the guys we have the most control over, and would be the most enticing in a trade. Not that we'd have to trade a SP or potential SP. . .but do we put Pivetta in the bullpen when a) Sale returns and b) we get another starter? He's been good. He's part of the future.​
*Richards and Perez are the most sacrificial/fungible. . .Richards the more so since the Great Unsticking. But Perez has been good though. Would someone take Richards? Could he transition to the BP?​

So Richards is likely the odd man out if Sale returns. But if we then trade for a #1? Who gets the hook?


PS - FWIW, this is a team that won't cut bait with Danny Santana with his OPS+ of 32 in 76 PAs. (Franchy's was 36 when demoted, 102 PAs.) Even though they have some OFs who are hitting the ball well in AAA.
Well, I think IL or DFA Richards or Perez. If you can improve the team to win a world series without losing all your best prospects, losing a 5-starter/swingman in the process, to me, is well worth it.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
Well, I think IL or DFA Richards or Perez. If you can improve the team to win a world series without losing all your best prospects, losing a 5-starter/swingman in the process, to me, is well worth it.
You likely could trade Perez, too ... which might be an interesting tack ...
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,497
around the way
You likely could trade Perez, too ... which might be an interesting tack ...
Perez is what he is. Richards, well even he doesn't know what he is right now. There's time to let it play out, and maybe Perez's value in a trade is worth it, but man it sure seems that we get more predictable mediocrity out of him than Richards.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
You likely could trade Perez, too ... which might be an interesting tack ...
IF Perez were to be removed from the rotation (and I don't know that we're anywhere near that point yet) he might have more value as a reliever/spot starter/bulk guy/sixth starter. IMO it's wiser to keep him as it's going to be hard to find an insurance piece for Sale/Houck after the deadline.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Well, I think IL or DFA Richards or Perez. If you can improve the team to win a world series without losing all your best prospects, losing a 5-starter/swingman in the process, to me, is well worth it.
Really, Wut? Cantor’s comment is brilliant. If the Sox can win the World Series AND not lose any prospects behind a fifth starter, you wouldn’t sign up for that?

it just seems so obvious now.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
Really, Wut? Cantor’s comment is brilliant. If the Sox can win the World Series AND not lose any prospects behind a fifth starter, you wouldn’t sign up for that?

it just seems so obvious now.
Yeah, Rovin talked about how crowded the rotation would be if Sale returns, Houck is promoted, and they trade for a good mid rotation starter. Like - what to do with all those starters? I see that as a good problem, given that their current rotation, aside from Eovaldi are ALL pitching like 5s. I mean, the mission is to assemble the best team possible in order to win the big one (with an eye to protecting the future), not to be polite to guys who are already on the team.

So - if they get Sale back and trade for a starter, and both Sale and the new pitcher are demonstrably better than Pivetta, or Richards, or Perez, the first thought I had is you could DFA the weakest link in the rotation to create roster space. Then, it occurred to me that you could both trade for an upgrade in the rotation, and then trade Perez to balance prospect loses, given that you need space on the roster (in the rotation) anyway.

So you could have:
Sale, Pitcher you trade for, Eovaldi, Erod, Pivetta, Houck as possible starters ...
That means dumping one or both of Perez and Richards. Given Perez's friendly contract, you could probably get something for him ...
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
What are we talking about? Am I missing some ongoing joke?

People are suggesting trading Richards or Perez for value and acquiring someone better than Eovaldi without giving up any good prospects? Ok.

There was a time when this stuff wouldn’t fly here…
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
What are we talking about? Am I missing some ongoing joke?

People are suggesting trading Richards or Perez for value and acquiring someone better than Eovaldi without giving up any good prospects? Ok.

There was a time when this stuff wouldn’t fly here…
No, no - I do think they would have to give up prospects. I simply was saying to make space for whatever pitcher they get they could trade Perez to mitigate those prospect loses. Does that seem ridiculous?
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,423
Miami (oh, Miami!)
No, no - I do think they would have to give up prospects. I simply was saying to make space for whatever pitcher they get they could trade Perez to mitigate those prospect loses. Does that seem ridiculous?
Yes. In a childishly hand-wavy way.

PS - apologes, but I couldn't resist.
 
Last edited:

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
16,855
What are we talking about? Am I missing some ongoing joke?

People are suggesting trading Richards or Perez for value and acquiring someone better than Eovaldi without giving up any good prospects? Ok.

There was a time when this stuff wouldn’t fly here…
The idea of getting some value for those guys is not necessarily crazy. Their team options for next year could provide some value for other teams, depending on how things go over the next month.

I realize that this is a bit different from what you were responding to, but Richards' $10 million team option for next season means he could have some value if he starts pitching effectively, like he did in his last 3 innings the other night. A team that's out of it this year but plans to contend next year could see some value in picking him up, assuming he started pitching well again and shows he might have a solution to his sticky problem. They get him, he does well, he's $10 million next year on a one-year deal. If they get him and he sucks, they can still walk away without owing anything.

Of course if he did start pitching effectively, we wouldn't want to trade him for very little. But the possibility that he regains some value is still there, and Bloom is creative, so I wouldn't rule out anything yet.

Perez has a similar situation, with a team option for next year at $6 million. He has less upside than Richards but is more of a reliable innings eater and will be cheaper next year. Again, a team who's basically out of it this year but wants to contend next year could see some value in that option.

Neither guy would bring back very much, but we're really unlikely to be trading for a "Number #1 starter " this year anyway. It's not Bloom's style, and no one is likely to be available in any trade that makes sense for us. I agree that we aren't going to be trading for a veteran starter who is better than Eovaldi. If we add any help, whether pitching or offense, most of it will probably be internal. We have some possibilities there, which is great.

But if Sale looks great, and suddenly we have "too many" starting pitchers (ha!) it's possible Richards or Perez may be able to be traded for some sort of value, instead of just being dumped. Bloom did a great job getting those those team options in their contracts, whether we keep them or not.

My main point is, it's still June. Many things are going to change. I still remember back in April when half the people in game threads wanted to DFA Ottavino, Renfro, and Taylor (or tar and feather them instead if they could.) Some things changed in a month or two, and others will change going forward. And we seem to have a smart management team with a creative decision maker who are likely to react well to the changes.

We could be both "buying" and "selling" this year at the deadline, with players involved that no one is even thinking about yet. In terms of trades, we don't necessarily have to do anything, but we could do a lot of things. That's a great position to be in.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
But if Sale looks great, and suddenly we have "too many" starting pitchers (ha!) it's possible Richards or Perez may be able to be traded for some sort of value, instead of just being dumped.

[/QUOTE]

This is essentially what I was saying, not sure why it would be controversial.

They trade for a starter that improves the rotation. What with Sale added, too, a guy or two needs to be bumped from the rotation. Rather than just DFA-ing them, they could trade and get some value back.
 

cantor44

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2020
1,644
Chicago, IL
BTW - the Red Sox traded Jalen Beeks to get Eovaldi. What would the equivalent prospect be from the current crop to get that kind of pitcher? Not an arm and a leg necessarily.
 

Gash Prex

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 18, 2002
6,836
The Sox need to find ABs for Duran - 2 more HR tonight for him (1 to RF and 1 to LF) and made a diving catch to rob a double.