If they want to alternate between two kinds of GMs for rebuilds and GFIN, why not hire two guys and keep both skill sets in-house?
The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom
- Thread starter Smiling Joe Hesketh
- Start date
This is my opinion. I don't want to have a cycle of winning and bottoming out. I want a cycle of winning and mediocre-ing out. If they bring in another Dombrowski type, I'm going to be annoyed.
It's also very important that they have someone in place ASAP as this is a pretty damn important off season.
Was it because Xander refused to have one but the Sox strong armed him into one?
Because Dave Dombrowski signed him to a contract with an opt-out clause because that's what he would accept in order to have the chance to become a free agent in his prime?
I think rodderick's point wasn't that Sox ownership had a mandate to let Xander go. I do think they would have vetoed any deal that would have gotten him to stay once the SD deal existed, but there is a gap between Mookie and Xander there. I'm with you that it's 100% on the Padres insane offer
The whole point of a guy like Bogaerts accepting that kind of extension is the opt out so if he performs well, he can cash in a few years later. I'd imagine it was a condition of him agreeing to extend at all.
I think fans think like this to get rid of Bloom because we see teams like Atlanta who have really good young players get paid under market value, while we watch big market Boston digging through the bargain pile (especially for pitchers).
I’m mildly surprised. I thought they’d give him one more year,, but the incredible suckitude of the past few weeks apparently sealed his fate. I’m sure Cora and the coaching staff are squirming a bit right now.
I don't think there was ever a mandate to let Xander walk and Chaim had leeway to negotiate a deal that wasn't the Padres deal in the preceding off-seasons. I don't think it was a similar situation to Mookie at all. That's all I'm saying.
I was referring to working Whitlock, Crawford and Houck into starters, bringing Paxton back. All of that happened, got some OK results for a while but didn't hold. Guys like that you need to know if they can hold down a rotation spot. That's what they spent the year figuring out. You're not just going to buy four starters on the FA market, where everything costs a premium and the failure rate is high.
One issue about attracting great candidates is that you can say that the cupboard is "stacked" and yes, it's promising, but the Orioles prospects are even better and they're already leading the division, the Rays always seem to get it done, and the Yankees have all the money in the world.
There are only 30 jobs so of course you're going to get interest, and the best candidate may be someone no one's heard of anyway, but if the goal is to get a top top "big name" candidate they might wait for something easier.
There are only 30 jobs so of course you're going to get interest, and the best candidate may be someone no one's heard of anyway, but if the goal is to get a top top "big name" candidate they might wait for something easier.
Unless it’s Theo coming back, I absolutely hate this move. I’ll always be greatful for FSG giving us what they have, but this ownership group is really souring with me.
Speaking of firing’s, show this entire coaching staff the door as well. Dumbest team in the league by far on the field. As for Cora, I was done with him after last season.
Wouldn’t be shocked if the farm is gutted by next season and I don’t think they have any “plan” or know what then hell they’re doing.
Speaking of firing’s, show this entire coaching staff the door as well. Dumbest team in the league by far on the field. As for Cora, I was done with him after last season.
Wouldn’t be shocked if the farm is gutted by next season and I don’t think they have any “plan” or know what then hell they’re doing.
Last edited:
Okay, but the more of those guys you sign long term, the less you're able to see of your young prospective starters like Bello, Whitlock, Houck, Crawford, et al.
The state of the Dodgers' rotation is not especially different from the Red Sox, I'd argue. They lost Anderson, Heaney, Buehler, Gonsolin, White, and May to free agency or injury last offseason, and had a similarly oft-injured former ace rotation anchor in Kershaw. Yet they did very little to replace them, only signing Syndergaard, who was a disaster. As a result, they've had landing spots to assimilate Miller, Sheehan, Stone and Grove.
Really surprised by this and a bit confused. Does that mean Henry expected the Sox to contend this year? If so, did he really make that clear to Bloom, because from the outside looking in that was clearly not Bloom's plan. I think we all assumed that Bloom's goal was to build a long-term contender through a deep farm system and that his plan for this year was to continue to make that the primary focus- while still putting out a 23' roster that had a good chance of being in the wild card hunt. If so, wouldn't this year have been seen as a great success? I mean, after a rough season last year (where many of his moves were hard to justify) he's looked like a genius this year. Certainly that Vazquez for Abreu-Valdez has aged well. Bloom also seems to have been one of the few people who thought Yoshida's bat would play in the majors, and was proven correct. While many wanted the Sox to dump Duran, Bloom certainly made the right call to keep him. How bout the Duvall and Turner signings in free agency? How bout the Chris Martin signing? Even some of his old moves have looked better this year than they ever did before. While we never going to get equal value for Mookie, Connor Wong is now a legitimate starting MLB catcher with a cannon for an arm. Verdugo is now a 2.5 WAR RF. And then there's Josh Winckowski's emergence as a solid late inning reliever - which sure makes the Benintendi trade look better.
Honestly, if they were going to fire him it would have made more sense a year ago.
Honestly, if they were going to fire him it would have made more sense a year ago.
"Be more like Atlanta!" Tell me who the replacement GM is that can do this. The last guy seemed focused on building the farm system and player development, which is how you become the next Atlanta, but they just canned his ass.
Gotcha.
FWIW, I do think it's wishcasting to think Xander would have accepted anything other than a blow-me-away extension offer without seeing what the FA market held. (Not attributing that to you.)
***
I also have to say, as a general comment, that I never really saw Xander as a "face of the franchise" guy, except sort of by default. I mean, like if the face of the franchise =s a HOF player, Xander's juust short in the hall of the very good.
I don't dislike the guy at all. But he was never quite an iconic "can't miss" player like Vaughn or Nomar or Pedro or Ortiz or Pedroia.
I will forever knock him for his failure to get under the luxury tax at the 2022 trade deadline.
You bring in the Rays guy to get them back to a good set up & take the PR hit. You bring in the Braves guy to win championships.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAeBqRgbjVQ
I don't think it is complicated. The team was really hitting and looked like some more pitching could get them to the playoffs. The call he had to make was to buy or sell and he did neither, so in effect he gambled on standing pat and lost.
Firing him after getting swept by the most embarrassing Yankees team in maybe a century may have lead to a confrontation or emotional reaction, ultimate loss of patience.
At any rate I feel for the guy. I have helped build two programs in basketball and both times stepped away before they won championships (You heard it here Walter Murray is hanging a banner next year) and even though both times it was my call, it is bittersweet to see it happen without you. If just one more (I am counting Casas) of the position prospects becomes a star the team could go on a 3-5 year run.
Firing him after getting swept by the most embarrassing Yankees team in maybe a century may have lead to a confrontation or emotional reaction, ultimate loss of patience.
At any rate I feel for the guy. I have helped build two programs in basketball and both times stepped away before they won championships (You heard it here Walter Murray is hanging a banner next year) and even though both times it was my call, it is bittersweet to see it happen without you. If just one more (I am counting Casas) of the position prospects becomes a star the team could go on a 3-5 year run.
Not really aimed at you per se, just using your post as a jumping off point. In general, I have seen a MASSIVE conflation of "calling out stupid EEI takes" with "being a Bloom fan". These are not remotely the same thing. Just wanted to throw that out there.
I'm pretty ambivalent on the whole thing, but I am surprised. Like many others here, I thought 2024 was going to be the make-or-break year. Also like many others, this feels to me like a deviation from the plan. We'll see what happens, I suppose. If this team goes off over the next couple of years with home-grown talent being heavily involved, Bloom is going to be very much in demand, I imagine.
Last edited:
Here's a when and how the Braves acquired these players
Sean Murphy: Three way trade in 2022 giving up notable prospects
Matt Olson: Trade in 2022 giving up multiple notable prospects
Ozzie Albies - IFA in 2013 (5 years from signing to debut)
Austin Riley - 1st round draft pick in 2015
Michael Harris II - 3rd round pick in 2019
Ronald Acuna Jr - IFA in 2014
Vaughn Grissom -11th round pick in 2019
Spencer Strider - 4th round pick in 2020
Bryce Elder - 5th round pick in 2020
Max Fried - 1st round pick in 2012 acquired via trade in 2014 of Justin Upton
Outside of Strider and Elder, all of these players were acquired by the Braves before Bloom became their GM (in some cases before Dave Dombrowski was their GM) or were acquired using resources far beyond what Bloom really had to work with. If people want to can Bloom for not hitting on this 4th and 5th round picks in 2020 ok whatever, no other team or GM did either.
This isn't meant to be at you at all but this is my issue with cutting loose on Bloom after four years, you don't get Atlanta results without long term fruits from the farm system., and from 204-2017, the Braves were a BAD baseball team, like...we're mad about Bloom, this team is better than any team Atlanta put out there when they were getting Acuna, Riley, Fried, as Albies developed, as they acquire and develop Pache (Olson), Muller, and Tarnok (Murphy). The Braves deserve an insane amount of credit for their scouting, talent recognition and development, and choice of trade subject but they also had to be a bad baseball team for several years to get there.
This is all well and good, but my biggest gripe with Bloom was the moves he didn't make (and Mookie). There were several instances where he would dip his toe in the water and execute 12% of a plan. If you're too gun shy that's also a problem.
I’m shocked people are so disappointed to see Bloom go. We’re in last place. Just like last year, when we finished under .500. Just like two years before that.
It’s truly nice we’ve transitioned into being a patient and optimistic fan base and I get the excitement that prospects bring - it’s always more pleasant to daydream on the possible stars/dynasties of tomorrow than face the lackluster squad of today - but prospects aren’t sure things and the ones helping the team today weren’t Bloom’s picks.
This isn’t a team competing while restocking the farm system. It’s a cellar dwelling team that has rebuilt the farm system, because that’s what cellar dwelling teams do. I don’t think it took a special mind to draft Mayer and Teel with top 5 and top 15 picks.
Honest question - how long did it take Theo and then DD to win when they were brought in?
It’s truly nice we’ve transitioned into being a patient and optimistic fan base and I get the excitement that prospects bring - it’s always more pleasant to daydream on the possible stars/dynasties of tomorrow than face the lackluster squad of today - but prospects aren’t sure things and the ones helping the team today weren’t Bloom’s picks.
This isn’t a team competing while restocking the farm system. It’s a cellar dwelling team that has rebuilt the farm system, because that’s what cellar dwelling teams do. I don’t think it took a special mind to draft Mayer and Teel with top 5 and top 15 picks.
Honest question - how long did it take Theo and then DD to win when they were brought in?
I am a bit disappointed and wanted to see another year but I think some people are losing sight of the whole "winning games" aspect. Yes, Bloom was tasked with rebuilding the farm and it looks like he's done a pretty good job of that. But the Sox also did not completely slash payroll, they allowed him to make some big-money decisions (Story, Yoshida, Devers, etc.). They haven't had a competitive September the past two seasons and I think this ownership group does expect to compete for playoff spots even when retooling for the future. He's made some good moves, he's made some bad moves but the bottom line is the results haven't been what ownership wants. You are allowed to build for the future and still put together more competitive teams than what Bloom has the past two seasons. And, yes, the next few years look exciting, but by no means is it clear that they are going to be some juggernaut next year nor are they as stacked prospect-wise as the Orioles were heading into this year or the Astros at the beginning of their run.
Again, I do think he should have gotten another season, but I don't think he's done anything so impressive that it is clear we will regret this decision down the road (we may, we may not). As many others have said, I think this signals more of a win-now approach for next season. I hope the ownership and next GM learn some lessons about not completely abandoning the future. But I, for one, am excited about this meaning the Sox will be big players this offseason and a hopefully more entertaining season next year.
Again, I do think he should have gotten another season, but I don't think he's done anything so impressive that it is clear we will regret this decision down the road (we may, we may not). As many others have said, I think this signals more of a win-now approach for next season. I hope the ownership and next GM learn some lessons about not completely abandoning the future. But I, for one, am excited about this meaning the Sox will be big players this offseason and a hopefully more entertaining season next year.
OK, let's not talk Mookie, that's been beaten to death several times here.
What WAS the move that he would have made that would have made you happy?
The problem is that we can’t be a Houston or Baltimore and tank for the best players for years. But whoever comes in has to walk the line between development and putting a championship team on the MLB field.
I was fairly shocked when I heard the news, but am beginning to see the logic.
There's a lot of smoke here but honestly, I think it comes down to whether Henry thought Bloom could be relied on to deliver the pitching this offseason they need to compete next year. And I think, based on how he built this season's staff (Kluber, relying on Paxton/Sale/etc.) and how he handled last offseason (the Xander San Diego deal that clearly surprised him), Henry concluded that Bloom couldn't.
Henry has to know that this team has a lot of the pieces in place right now: Devers, Casas, Yoshida, Duran, Wong, Story, Verdugo and Bello is a very solid group (and notably, none of the kids are Bloom guys, tho they're coming). What he doesn't have is pitching -- and getting that pitching is going to require moving some pieces and spending some dollars akin to what Dombrowski did in 2016-17 to bring back at least two starters. Bloom showed he could do well with high value, low cost deals on position players (a la Turner and Duvall). What he hasn't proven is his ability to make big, game-changing moves for top talent.
There have been times this season I've been very excited about the future of this ballclub. But if you are looking at this team as an investment, you want someone in charge who can grow that investment -- either because they have done it before or because you are confident they can do it. Bloom had too many swings and misses on the lesser deals (ie, Renfroe for JBJ) and the bigger ones (Xander) for Henry to believe he had what it took to take this team to the next level. Hence, he's gone.
There's a lot of smoke here but honestly, I think it comes down to whether Henry thought Bloom could be relied on to deliver the pitching this offseason they need to compete next year. And I think, based on how he built this season's staff (Kluber, relying on Paxton/Sale/etc.) and how he handled last offseason (the Xander San Diego deal that clearly surprised him), Henry concluded that Bloom couldn't.
Henry has to know that this team has a lot of the pieces in place right now: Devers, Casas, Yoshida, Duran, Wong, Story, Verdugo and Bello is a very solid group (and notably, none of the kids are Bloom guys, tho they're coming). What he doesn't have is pitching -- and getting that pitching is going to require moving some pieces and spending some dollars akin to what Dombrowski did in 2016-17 to bring back at least two starters. Bloom showed he could do well with high value, low cost deals on position players (a la Turner and Duvall). What he hasn't proven is his ability to make big, game-changing moves for top talent.
There have been times this season I've been very excited about the future of this ballclub. But if you are looking at this team as an investment, you want someone in charge who can grow that investment -- either because they have done it before or because you are confident they can do it. Bloom had too many swings and misses on the lesser deals (ie, Renfroe for JBJ) and the bigger ones (Xander) for Henry to believe he had what it took to take this team to the next level. Hence, he's gone.
It's a little like how every deadline or offseason the overvaluation of prospects results in people hating many trades/ideas. Now, I get the theory there--and I wanted Dombrowski gone too because you can go WAY too far with dumping prospects. But you can also go too far the other way, viewing theoretical system depth and flexibility as the goal. They are not---they are an enabler of the goal, which is winning. Eventually, you really do have to do that part.
This is all why I analogized to Hinkie...it's far less extreme, but much of the commentary feels the same to me, and I do think there's reason to wonder if the core gap (not really the guy to build the actual top-level roster to win a lot of games) is the same.
View: https://twitter.com/Jared_Carrabis/status/1702374768022798720
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15), that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents)
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15), that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents)
let’s not forget what the Shaughnessy types are screeching for going over the cap. Look at the benefits of playing the CBA correctly with regards to the IFA.
Why not? That's an ownership decision _not_ to do that, but there isn't any reason they can't.
Ownership can do what they want, but the fans would stay away in droves, which affects the bottom line.
I suspect it's the combination of 1) the decision to go for it or punt combined with 2) the lack of adding if the decision (whether ownership or Bloom) was to go for it 3) the disconnect between those and 4) the total collapse soon after.
But I also think the collapse was only the final straw because there was a lot of frustration built up - the next reactionary move John Henry makes with this franchise will be the first in 20 years, so safe to assume they were already concerned about things prior to this year's deadline or the 35ish games since.
Basically I think that's what they've been doing. Since their last championship (2018), they've gone:
2019: 84-78
2020: 24-36
2021: 92-70
2022: 78-84
2023: 73-72 so far
TOT: 351-340 (.508), which would project to an 82-80 record in a 162-game season
That's about as "mediocre" as it gets, right?
Theo took two years coming into a 93 win team with multiple stars the team paid to keep as well as a generational pitcher and another ace caliber guy. Epstein made several good moves to add a handful of wins to those teams (spending money and resources to do it of course) and get into a championship position. DD won it all in his third full season (can't count 2015) from a 78 win team where a slew of homegrown talent was emerging or in their playing primes (Xander, Betts, Pedroia, Ortiz, E-Rod, JBJ) with more in the tank with a very deep farm system and ownership ready to spend. It culminated in an insanely dominant 2018 team.
I feel confident that if you gave Bloom DD's farm system or Theo's base team in their respective financial situations you would have seen similar results. He walked into a worse situation than either of them with ownership mandates they didn't have without the slam dunk wins that used to be in the East.
Remember when you were in your 20s and there was that old guy who just wouldn't shut up about Fisk?
You didn’t ask me, but I’ll give my answer: honestly and realistically evaluating what last years team was at the deadline, and selling off/getting under the LT accordingly. Rather than the pointless lateral moves. A badly missed opportunity that loomed over this past offseason. Can criticize certain individual moves, but that was a bad mark on his tenure. And maybe undermined confidence in his ability to work all the levers of the job.
- 2021 they traded for Schwarber at the deadline. Arguably the best bat that changed teams but they didn't acquire the first baseman that they needed over and above that. That was the narrative on here.
- 2022 trade deadline, they failed to get under the luxury tax threshold and kept assets like JD Martinez
- 2022-2023 offseason, failed to get a middle infielder. They did the exact same thing with Xander that they did with Lester on the heals of Henry and Co saying they don't want another Jon Lester situation here. Xander should have never gotten to free agency. When they let him get to free agency and sign with San Diego they failed to pivot to someone like Swanson. They made moves for the bullpen indicative of a championship caliber team (Martin, Kenley) and then looked for discounts on the starting pitching market.
Who knows what was said internally at the deadline, but If Bloom said, "here's how I want to play it," I can definitely see ownership saying, "we dont interfere in ops decisions, but if you're wrong you're gone." I'm actually OK with that.
That's basically how all the teams did it. Atlanta. Houston. Seattle. Philadelphia. Baltimore. Toronto. Tampa Bay. Lots of terrible baseball teams that provided the building blocks for their current success. The Yankees and Dodgers seem to be the only exceptions, and even those teams had very meh years in there.
I think his issue was he kept building teams that could flip players at the deadline if they were out of it, and he does have a good eye for players like that, but the teams were mostly too competitive to do that while also not being competitive enough to be a serious contender besides ‘21 so players hardly were flipped. I almost wonder if he had flipped most of Paxton, Turner, Duvall, Jansen and Martin if he would have kept the job.
But, didnt the Braves Coppollela to Anthopolous after the 2017 season? Which brings me back to my first post in this thread, that even as a Bloom guy - if the FO ultimately dont trust Bloom to take what he's done with the entire org and translate it to wins in Boston I get the move. With the caveat that....
The next hire doesnt do what Shaugnessy wants.
I feel like Bloom’s problem, whether mandated or not, is the decision to straddle. Never quite blowing it up for the full rebuild or pushing the chips in at a deadline and going for it. The decision fell flat last year and repeated this year.
A comment that indirectly leads to me say that I'd rather read the least-informed, bat-shittiest poster here than any of the professional commentariat for the next several days.