Isn’t that’s what’s frustrating about ending up in last place then? It’s no like we’re really competing past summer and there’s not really a clear path forward yet.
The Red Sox have fired Chaim Bloom
- Thread starter Smiling Joe Hesketh
- Start date
So just to be clear on this one. The stance here is that he effed up the 2022 and 2023 deadlines he straddled and that was insufficient when the team was right on that borderline of competitive or not...when pretty much everybody in this thread who supports this move is ALSO mad the Sox are in the cellar (or tied for last with a record that would be in the middle of any other division in baseball whatever). I am pretty sure most of the folks here to HWSC"s point wanted him to do what he did at the time - find strategic acquisitions but don't break hard either way. The poll here was pretty clear.
If we're saying we wanted him to pull the plug on these teams in July I guess that can't be helped but honestly that is not what most fans here wanted him to do at the time or even now.
For the middle infielder thing, we really have no solid backing that Xander would have taken a market extension (non SD Market) from Boston prior to going to FA. If so, you might be able to argue it, but also...does Xander Bogaerts make this 2023 team a playoff contender? Not with his declining numbers this year. But he sure helps keep them above the tax line, which is a no-no of course.
I dunno, I get not being happy with the 2022-2023 Red Sox - they're frustrating. I just don't think the moves were there that make this better. Fans want their cake without the calories and unless you are running on all cylinders for years it just doesn't happen that way.
Unless they hire someone quickly and were afraid they'd take another job soon
Whether not to punt is not a choice made by Bloom alone. The org. decided to go for it, and decided the returning players would get them over the hump. They did not. So it's a pretty straight line. Bloom must have been on the side of going for it without making significant trades. (Urias was the only one.)
I don't know if those hypothetical trades would have helped. But ownership evidently thought they would have. Or ownership thinks Bloom didn't correctly weigh the impact of people coming off the IL.
Xander alone wouldn't make them a contender, but he'd be your best position player right now in terms of WAR and not only that would be sliding into the spot that has contributed the least value to your team in 2023. No player in baseball alone would make them a contender, you can plug Mookie in for Verdugo and it wouldn't be enough.
Couldn't you then say that about every GM? Aren't they all doing what they're doing with support of ownership until they're fired?
I am shocked that Bloom got canned today. I thought he'd get another year. But I agree with these takes very much.
At the end of the day John Henry is a businessman and while I'm sure he's intrigued by a guy who wants to take five years to build up the farm system, at the end of the day he's not making as much as he should in Boston and I'm sure that got his attention. @Sille Skrub said it the other day, but no one talks about the Red Sox. No one has been going to the games. No one cares. And that's what three out of four years of losing (or mediocre baseball at best) does to a fan base. It makes interest level go down and you get reporters counting how many fans there are in sections against New York. It's embarrassing. John Henry doesn't strike me as a guy who likes being embarrassed.
You can say that Bloom wasn't given enough time but he was. Even in 2020, he had the entire offseason to implement some sort of plan knowing that he'd have to trade Mookie Betts. Was there bad luck? Of course there was, show me a General Manager (PoBO) who doesn't deal with bad luck or injuries every year--I don't think Brian Cashman has had his expected lineup on the field for more than a week in the last five years. That's part of the job, you need to figure it out, make changes, update your plan. And that's what I don't think Bloom ever did, especially for his rotation. His plan was, these are my five guys and if something bad happens to them, I'll find someone. Which is fine if you have the 2004 Red Sox starting staff, but most of his staffs were operating with a lot of unhealthy arms.
Throwing shit from Worcester against a wall and hoping something sticks is not backup plan. He was indecisive at last year's trading deadline and also this year's deadline and to make matters worse he said that the Sox were "an underdog" that I think completely deflated this squad.
At the end of the day Bloom has two primary jobs: shepherd the farm system and make sure that the big league team can compete for the post season. The jury is out on whether he succeeded in the first job (I have no idea and neither do you or Baesball America or Keith Law) but his second job was dreadful.
I never like seeing a person lose his job--I've been on the other side of that equation and it really, really sucks and I'm not going to celebrate his firing--but Boston wasn't the right fit for Chaim Bloom. I think that things moved much too fast for him and he never was able to catch up. Maybe he can do it in a smaller market, but he just couldn't get the job done here.
Nah, they probably just want to be able to get someone in place before the off season really gets going. We'll probably hire someone during the playoffs.
Absolutely, and if it does turn out that I'm wrong and they have someone like Alex A clamoring for this job and it's the next step, I'll be the happiest wrong person in New England. I just don't think we have Alex A walking through that door, and people piling on Bloom for his guys not being in there yet is just not acknowledging how long these run up processes are.
I don’t like Shaughnessy at all, but if you think he or his ilk had anything to do with it, you’re wrong.
I don’t recall Shaughnesy badmouthing Dombrowsi, but Henry canned him less than year after winning a World Series. He tried to basically demote Cherington, who also won a World Series.
Henry is a billionaire 40 times over who’s in his third wife, this one who’s about 30 years younger than he is. He’s probably been firing people he didn’t think we’re producing quickly enough since Shaughnessy was covering rookie Larry Bird.
This is where I am.
I've tried to evaluate Bloom objectively, and I really like how he has rebuilt the system and I love the MLB core. I've figured that this was the offseason to get a couple starting pitchers and really start to compete next season. I guess I haven't been bothered by the MLB performance over the past couple of years because I like the overall direction, but I understand that others have a different view.
I just think it's a year or two early.
Absolutely this. The thinking might be that acquiring a few assets last year puts them in contention this year. Instead, during one of the biggest series of the year the Boston Fuckin'' Red Sox trotted out two goddamn openers and got their teeth kicked in. Embarrassing. Who knows what he would have done as a lame duck with the weight of the world on his back and I'm glad he won't be shopping for the groceries come hot stove season.
I probably have a reputation as a Bloom apologist, & I probably agree with 90% or more of what he's done. But I really don't have an issue with him being fired. I wish him all the best of luck in all his future endeavors. He's made good money, carried himself with dignity, left our franchise in a much better place & has plenty of time to catch on with another team.
The P.R. for the new guy will be great. All he has to do is not randomly swerve the franchise off a cliff. All the angst related to the choices Bloom was forced to make due to the position the franchise he was in will wash away, & everyone can hopefully just enjoy the next 10+ years of our really exciting upcoming core.
But we need to stick with the Dodgers/Braves model & not branch out into something stupid & roller-coastery.
The P.R. for the new guy will be great. All he has to do is not randomly swerve the franchise off a cliff. All the angst related to the choices Bloom was forced to make due to the position the franchise he was in will wash away, & everyone can hopefully just enjoy the next 10+ years of our really exciting upcoming core.
But we need to stick with the Dodgers/Braves model & not branch out into something stupid & roller-coastery.
I guess the question regarding the trade deadline is this: did Bloom not trade anyone because he didn’t see any adequate values to be had, or was Bloom asked/told that the team needs to remain competitive this year, and wasn’t willing to trade away assets to protect his job.
I think that it’s hard to separate Bloom from ownership direction because of how involved they’ve been with steering the ship under his watch.
I think that it’s hard to separate Bloom from ownership direction because of how involved they’ve been with steering the ship under his watch.
Nice timing in shitcanning Bloom immediately after the top PoBO candidate just came off the board.
I'd love to hear what top candidates with a strong track record are actually interested in this job, because my strong suspicion is that Bloom's replacement is the next flavor-of-the-month from the Braves or Dodgers ... you know, the same process that brought us Chaim Bloom.
Thiat being said, this is the same ownership group that replaced Tito with Bobby Valentine, so I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Bowden shows up for an interview.
I'd love to hear what top candidates with a strong track record are actually interested in this job, because my strong suspicion is that Bloom's replacement is the next flavor-of-the-month from the Braves or Dodgers ... you know, the same process that brought us Chaim Bloom.
Thiat being said, this is the same ownership group that replaced Tito with Bobby Valentine, so I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Bowden shows up for an interview.
The other factor is if they're paying Xander top dollar, do they have enough cash to sign Duvall? Or Turner? Or Yoshida? At some point there's a limit.
And then there's 2024 and beyond. We have a slew of middle infielders on the way up, including the #11 prospect in baseball. Sure there's no guarantee Mayer makes it, and theoretically you can flip him. But if you're looking ahead, a cost-controlled potential franchise-player at SS is hard to ignore.
That's a good point and one I hadn't considered. Let's see who gets the seat - and frankly moving on from Bloom after this season seems fair. You hire different types to execute different strategies. They need to ramp up with their system starting to bear fruit.
To be clear, I have mixed feelings about his firing, and think to some degree he is the fall guy for the fan indifference, and the associated ridicule coming from talk radio, etc. I think it would’ve been fair to give him 2024 to try and take the next step. But, IMO, he badly mishandled both trade deadline, and do think it may have hastened his departure.
If we brought in Stearns then we couldn't have traded for Corbin Burnes, though. Or signed Josh Hader.
Isn't that the issue though? It's what I keep coming back to in my head - people are mad about not maximizing certain scenarios (which seems to be Xander and the two deadlines where the team fell off). There wasn't really a series of moves in 2022 or 2023 that make them contenders, so people are mad they didn't sell, and I can agree with that not being ideal, but is that enough to fire him over? Maybe successfully extending Bogaerts under a reasonable deal (which I'm never convinced was possible) AND successfully convincing Eflin to come to Boston (reports are Boston at least tied the Tampa deal and Eflin is a Rays fan and Florida native...) that scoots them into the wild card? But that's also combined with other deals Bloom did make. If the Sox need perfect execution to eke into the wild card, that expectation feels unrealistic to me. And to others point, Xander taking up 20-25 million may mean you don't get someone else who has added value, so maybe it doesn't go that far.
This is really disappointing to me. Not because I have a strong opinion on Bloom. But because it disabuses me of a belief that I've had.
Our team is poorly constructed. Too many DHs. Our pitching staff is not complementary. We have enough talent to be competitive, and to win when Duvall goes on a heater, or whatever. But often, especially in the field and the bullpen, we end up playing like less than the sum of our parts. Whatever. Watching Cora have to try to assemble this island of misfit toys into a winning combination every night has been torture.
I've contented myself with the idea that this is all just temporary as part of an overall rebuild and there were going to be some spare parts this year, but that it was all ultimately part of a plan that was well understood. And I thought Bloom was at the center of that plan. Now, it's pretty clear that's not the case. It's just ownership looking at a suboptimally constructed team and deciding that the guy who shopped for the groceries fucked up. That's hard to take. Much as a change in leadership may signal a new and better direction, I thought were were already headed in a new and better direction of which this year was a hard-to-watch building block. But, I guess not . . . .
Our team is poorly constructed. Too many DHs. Our pitching staff is not complementary. We have enough talent to be competitive, and to win when Duvall goes on a heater, or whatever. But often, especially in the field and the bullpen, we end up playing like less than the sum of our parts. Whatever. Watching Cora have to try to assemble this island of misfit toys into a winning combination every night has been torture.
I've contented myself with the idea that this is all just temporary as part of an overall rebuild and there were going to be some spare parts this year, but that it was all ultimately part of a plan that was well understood. And I thought Bloom was at the center of that plan. Now, it's pretty clear that's not the case. It's just ownership looking at a suboptimally constructed team and deciding that the guy who shopped for the groceries fucked up. That's hard to take. Much as a change in leadership may signal a new and better direction, I thought were were already headed in a new and better direction of which this year was a hard-to-watch building block. But, I guess not . . . .
Put me in the category of those who hope that, since Bloom is gone, the other shoe drops as well. I'm more pro- than anti- Cora, but I'd like to see them clean house on the MLB level.
Saddling a new czar with the same manager/staff handcuffs them from the start.
Saddling a new czar with the same manager/staff handcuffs them from the start.
We have a top 5 system in baseball, a solid core, & $80m to spend.
All the prospects don't need to hit for things to end up very nicely.
Theo & Co got all the credit for the 2004 Red Siox when two of the biggest pieces that made that possible were Duquette's doing
I’m absolutely shocked by this. I thought he had at least another year before ownership would make a call on him.
That said, good riddance.
Chaim always struck me as the type to turn his nose up at the obvious good move, and instead make a head scratcher move that might make him look like a genius if it pans out.
That said, good riddance.
Chaim always struck me as the type to turn his nose up at the obvious good move, and instead make a head scratcher move that might make him look like a genius if it pans out.
What does "gun shy" mean, he's too caught up in his prospects to ever trade them? He's afraid to take on any risk? Because the Sox are graduating out of a time when they should not have taken any risks with their prospects to a phase where they can and should.
I"m perfectly OK with this*. This team is not improving in my eyes and the roster construction for the third or whatever straight year has been such it IMO had no real shot at contending for an ALCS title.
The fact the deadline they played footy with buying and selling with this roster made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever either. He never to me seemed to have an idea of what to do each season, and instead just took flyers on guys you probably never heard of when signed or again when you're not a diehard fan.
* But they better know who they're hiring next. Canning him for a replacement that's identical won't solve anything,. They need a different approach entirely imo.
The fact the deadline they played footy with buying and selling with this roster made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever either. He never to me seemed to have an idea of what to do each season, and instead just took flyers on guys you probably never heard of when signed or again when you're not a diehard fan.
* But they better know who they're hiring next. Canning him for a replacement that's identical won't solve anything,. They need a different approach entirely imo.
After reading this entire thread I come back to this right here.
We are a top tier payroll organization. .500 or below in 3 of 4 seasons is not going to cut it. We aren't the Pirates.
I assume this is in response to my comment, but not all of them have to hit and no one with any sense thinks they will. A small handful in addition to the current core will fill some holes at low salaries and create $ for chasing big ticket guys. It's not wishcasting to look at the farm right now and expect three or four of those guys will become dependable MLers (not even stars!) that will account for a lot of inexpensive ABs every season for a three to five year span.
Read the comments in one of his columns sometime. There is a breathtakingly stupid mob of Sox fans who demand the team go all in on winning tomorrow's game. I completely believe ownership is sensitive to fanbase pressure, no matter how brainless it is. We don't know otherwise.
Haven't read through this entire thread but the ironic part to me is that either Bloom sold the top brass on his ability to remain competitive and rebuild (or he took the job with that stipulation) but it turns out he likely would have had more job security if he had full-on tanked.
It's a tough needle to thread to try to remain competitive and still find the top-level prospects that allow teams to win in pro sports and the downside of failing is that the team ends up like the Red Sox - last 3 out of 4 years with a farm system that is highly regarded but may not have a lot of top-end talent. And when that happens people lose their jobs.
However good Chaim may have (or may not have) been, hopefully they find someone better.
Pete Abe makes a good point:
Seems like this has been pretty consistent from ownership. You get four years to show results.
Hasn't he been quoted as saying that Tampa was his home and he wanted to stay there?
So fan impatience makes a real rebuild impossible. That's the rule. We have a lot of below .500 seasons coming then.
Two of those three won a World Series title, so that doesn't seem to be the 'result' ownership cares about.
Upon further thought, part of the thinking here might well be that Bloom said that the returning players off the IL would be the de facto trade deadline acquisitions this year and every single one of them has struggled badly since coming back, while the Sox had a losing record in August.
The Red Sox offered him the same deal as Tampa and he is a Rays fan and lives in Florida, so yep.
I agree with all but the bolded -- I am also not living or dying with each loss. I love the Turner and Duvall signings. The kids emerging was great. And Bloom has made some good moves developing the roster on the whole.
But confident were you that Bloom could get us two frontline starters this offseason? The one thing you knew going into this year was that the pitching was held together by rubber bands. And at the end of the day, it was the team's fatal flaw (way more than the defense). With even average starting pitching I think this team is in the playoffs -- and given the core, potentially dangerous.
I don't think Bloom got fired because he didn't improve the team at the deadline -- or because he missed on one deal or another. I think it's because he's never shown an urgency or ability to go out and get his man. He's the guy who waits out the market. And this offseason, with all the parts we have, that's not what we need.
I was surprised because I thought he would get another year, and overall agreed with the team's approach to build via the draft (which puts me as a Bloomophile in these parts - so be it). However, when I heard the news I thought the relative inaction over the past 2 trade deadlines could have been the trigger, especially since last season's inaction needlessly left them above the tax line. Not everyone will agree, but I'm guessing (reinforced by Chad Finn and other media types) on what ownership's thought process is rather than what we want it to be.
Couple that with:
The team's prospect pool looks really good right now - plenty of teams screw up high draft picks, so I am more than willing to credit Bloom for drafting the right players. And the Dombrowski prospects have made some nice progress through the system and into the big club, which again matters. But it's not like we can look towards next season and see a combination of a starting lineup, rotation and bullpen that screams "lock to make the playoffs". Instead we see a team that needs to hit it lucky during free agency (not every pursuit is successful) and in other areas to be considered a true contender in the AL East in 2024. And if you were a visitor from the future and told me yesterday that the Sox would finish last again in 2024, I would not laugh in your face. And I can see why JWH thinks that is a problem.
Couple that with:
Now, Bloom obviously had nothing to do with 2019, and was clearly being given a mulligan for 2020. But the results of last 2 seasons do matter.
The team's prospect pool looks really good right now - plenty of teams screw up high draft picks, so I am more than willing to credit Bloom for drafting the right players. And the Dombrowski prospects have made some nice progress through the system and into the big club, which again matters. But it's not like we can look towards next season and see a combination of a starting lineup, rotation and bullpen that screams "lock to make the playoffs". Instead we see a team that needs to hit it lucky during free agency (not every pursuit is successful) and in other areas to be considered a true contender in the AL East in 2024. And if you were a visitor from the future and told me yesterday that the Sox would finish last again in 2024, I would not laugh in your face. And I can see why JWH thinks that is a problem.
The implication is that it's fanboyism on the prospects, which is ridiculous, since basically every reputable organization that follows prospects has the same opinion.
Those who don't care about prospects and are tired of losing now, that's fair. Those implying that prospects are dumb or anyone can do it do not fully appreciate the ridiculous hit rate that Bloom had in his time here.
1. He could have cut payroll last year at the deadline to make this year 1 post under cap, instead of under cap year
2. "Rebuilding" by finishing last in 3 of the 4 years. The top prospects fell to them Mayer/Teel. They passed on another top prospect who fell to them (PCA) in favor of a package of Yorke/Jordan. Right now, having a top 20 overall prospect in baseball would have given them more of a "rebuild" than the later two. They did the same trade last year, taking Romero underslot to get Roman Anthony. That seems to be good, even as Romero (18th after bad year)/Coffey (37th and falling) are questionable rebuilds.
Brannon and Hickey are interesting kids.
Losing two second round picks because of failing at #1 is another missed "rebuild," as is wasting $1.5 million in international free agent money ($500K for #1 above, and then losing Tony Ruiz and getting stuck with no second options).
Not trading wasting assets like Paxton/Duvall & others at the deadline also missed opportunity to "rebuild" the farm Above-replacement-level farm build for a bad team with 3 years of good picks for being bad.