The Second War on Theis: Celtics trade for Daniel Theis

Cesar Crespo

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Not really sold on the bolded. Swapping out Kemba's 31 mpg of inefficient offense and league-worst defense is huge. TL is way ahead of last year. Grant as well. Al is a better fit than TT. Fewer mouths to feed, roles more clearly defined, and there is defensive buy-in (about to get better too after moving DS out).
3 bigs in the top 8 of the rotation is never a good thing. Especially for a coach who loves 2 bigs.
 

Devizier

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What's funny is that I was thinking Nwaba would have been a decent back of the rotation wing for the Celtics.

Was thinking about the wrong Houston Rocket.

Theis taking Freedom's minutes is good, but I'm guessing he doesn't see a lot of play time until Horford is gone.
 

Senator Donut

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My first reaction is that these trades really help the 2022-23 Celtics, as they didn't have great point guard or big man rotation with Schroeder departing and Al salary dumped. They can be a lot more flexible this offseason.
 

Cellar-Door

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My first reaction is that these trades really help the 2022-23 Celtics, as they didn't have great point guard or big man rotation with Schroeder departing and Al salary dumped. They can be a lot more flexible this offseason.
yeah I love how they are set up for the Summer.

You have a locked in group of: TL/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart/Theis/Grant (plus PP and NEsmith)... Al can either be traded at 26.5 or 14.5 (19.5 if we make the finals) or cut for the latter, plus TPEs of various sizes, and a lot of those guys are solid salary match.
 

lovegtm

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yeah I love how they are set up for the Summer.

You have a locked in group of: TL/Tatum/Brown/White/Smart/Theis/Grant (plus PP and NEsmith)... Al can either be traded at 26.5 or 14.5 (19.5 if we make the finals) or cut for the latter, plus TPEs of various sizes, and a lot of those guys are solid salary match.
They can trade Horford+picks for a good shooter at any position from 2-4 and have it all fit, or move Smart for similar (although probably would prefer to keep Smart as a long-term elite 6th man).
 

scottyno

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Theis on a 2/18 deal after this season. Then a team option.

Interesting to see Brad committing $ over the next few years with White/Theis, not just looking for stopgaps for a couple months.
They were never going to be able to sign a 3rd star outright in free agency next year. Between Horford, Smart, White, and Theis they now have a lot of options to match salaries.
 

Cellar-Door

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They can trade Horford+picks for a good shooter at any position from 2-4 and have it all fit, or move Smart for similar (although probably would prefer to keep Smart as a long-term elite 6th man).
yep, the current group is (outside TL) super positionally versatile and defensively sound.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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Schroder being gone makes the White trade a lot more palatable. White-Smart/Smart-PP/White-PP are all doable lineups in a way that Schroder with all of those guys just wasn't. Big opportunity for Nesmith to not suck.

Hilarious that Freedom and Bruno both go out on little highlights.
 

Auger34

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Schroder being gone makes the White trade a lot more palatable. White-Smart/Smart-PP/White-PP are all doable lineups in a way that Schroder with all of those guys just wasn't. Big opportunity for Nesmith to not suck.

Hilarious that Freedom and Bruno both go out on little highlights.
Thats a great point that I hadn’t thought of. White really does help unleash and unlock PP to play more….
He’s just a much better fit for this roster and more of a true ball handler than JRich. I don’t love trading an FRP but I really do think the roster is a good deal better today than it was yesterday
 

Euclis20

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I like it a lot if Ime actually uses Theis to limit RWill's and Horford's minutes. That was harder to do with Kanter given all his limitations.
Yup, that was my first thought here. For this year, Boston trades a bit of wing depth for a bit of big depth, while also getting a bit more versatile. Horford/TL have missed just 20 games combined - considering their age/durability, we've been lucky. Theis is a better fit (and has fewer limitations) in this regard than Kanter.
 

ugmo33

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I know it's a little irrational but this trade makes me wonder what they'll do against Embiid. It was the one matchup where I really liked Freedom and now I guess its up to old Al and skinny Time Lord?
 

cardiacs

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I know it's a little irrational but this trade makes me wonder what they'll do against Embiid. It was the one matchup where I really liked Freedom and now I guess its up to old Al and skinny Time Lord?
I think this will be addressed in the buyout market.

Edit - Kornet maybe too
 

Nick Kaufman

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Thanks to this thread, I learned that Enes Kanter renamed himself to Enes Freedom. At this point in his career, I thought the choice would be between Enes Flotsam and Enes Jetsam! :D

PS. I am joking. I respect Enes for his political stances, but still.
 

benhogan

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I know it's a little irrational but this trade makes me wonder what they'll do against Embiid. It was the one matchup where I really liked Freedom and now I guess its up to old Al and skinny Time Lord?
Harden & Maxey, would render Freedom useless.

Horford or Theis will try to slow Joel down

76ers will miss Curry. The Nets having him & Patty running around for 3s will be treacherous when focused on stopping Ky/KD
 

NomarsFool

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Why did Houston make this trade? Basically just getting off of Theis' contract? They aren't going anywhere, obviously. I might have thought they would make the trade if they could have then flipped DS to somewhere else for something - but there wasn't time for that.
 

Cellar-Door

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Why did Houston make this trade? Basically just getting off of Theis' contract? They aren't going anywhere, obviously. I might have thought they would make the trade if they could have then flipped DS to somewhere else for something - but there wasn't time for that.
I would guess it's mostly about clearing money long term, and also they might vaguely like Bruno and want to see if he's worth a minimum slot next year
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Why did Houston make this trade? Basically just getting off of Theis' contract? They aren't going anywhere, obviously. I might have thought they would make the trade if they could have then flipped DS to somewhere else for something - but there wasn't time for that.
They might have done a solid for a vet that had no future in HOU. Plus they save $.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Why did Houston make this trade? Basically just getting off of Theis' contract? They aren't going anywhere, obviously. I might have thought they would make the trade if they could have then flipped DS to somewhere else for something - but there wasn't time for that.
Yeah, it is a negative value contract. He makes too much money for his position and production. They really should have received a small asset for this trade. It would look a lot better if we got a 2nd rounder along with it.
 

Saints Rest

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Harden & Maxey, would render Freedom useless.

Horford or Theis will try to slow Joel down

76ers will miss Curry. The Nets having him & Patty running around for 3s will be treacherous when focused on stopping Ky/KD
I can't recall how Theis did in the past against Embiid. I do recall, perhaps erroneously, that he was pretty good as the key member in the hold-the-line defense against Giannis. Am I right there?

More generally, my memory of Theis in green, was
  • Great screener, especially on the legal moving screen in the lane;
  • Decent 3-pt shooter (until he got seriously gun-shy in the playoffs and looked like Steve Sax every time he had an open shot at the 3P line);
  • Solid defender when he wasn't getting into foul trouble.
The latter bit is likely mitigated as part of the 3-headed 2-Bigs monster.
The 3-point yips seem to have embedded themselves since he left BOS. He was a career .345 in Boston, but has been a dreadful .287 combined in HOU and CHI.
I imagine the screening ability will still be strong, especially once he is reunited with The Master, Al Horford.
 

benhogan

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I can't recall how Theis did in the past against Embiid. I do recall, perhaps erroneously, that he was pretty good as the key member in the hold-the-line defense against Giannis. Am I right there?

More generally, my memory of Theis in green, was
  • Great screener, especially on the legal moving screen in the lane;
  • Decent 3-pt shooter (until he got seriously gun-shy in the playoffs and looked like Steve Sax every time he had an open shot at the 3P line);
  • Solid defender when he wasn't getting into foul trouble.
The latter bit is likely mitigated as part of the 3-headed 2-Bigs monster.
The 3-point yips seem to have embedded themselves since he left BOS. He was a career .345 in Boston, but has been a dreadful .287 combined in HOU and CHI.
I imagine the screening ability will still be strong, especially once he is reunited with The Master, Al Horford.
like every Theis memory, it involves a foul with Daniel bringing his arms down on a flopping Embiid

BUT agree with all your points, he had a decent mid range jumper from the nail.

His 2-man PnR, snake screen game was exceptional.
 

NomarsFool

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I would guess it's mostly about clearing money long term, and also they might vaguely like Bruno and want to see if he's worth a minimum slot next year
But they just signed Theis. NBA teams do that a lot, I guess, but it seems weird to me to sign somebody and then trade them away, unless they really aren't what you thougth they would be.
 

Cellar-Door

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But they just signed Theis. NBA teams do that a lot, I guess, but it seems weird to me to sign somebody and then trade them away, unless they really aren't what you thougth they would be.
Could be a few things...
1. Sengun was more ready than expected
2. They thought they'd sell high on Wood, but couldn't
3. Theis was an uneasy fit with Sengun
4. They always intended to trade him.
5. They're in full tank mode and think moving Theis for nothing helps that, and they get a TPE
 

Eddie Jurak

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I can't recall how Theis did in the past against Embiid. I do recall, perhaps erroneously, that he was pretty good as the key member in the hold-the-line defense against Giannis. Am I right there?

More generally, my memory of Theis in green, was
  • Great screener, especially on the legal moving screen in the lane;
  • Decent 3-pt shooter (until he got seriously gun-shy in the playoffs and looked like Steve Sax every time he had an open shot at the 3P line);
  • Solid defender when he wasn't getting into foul trouble.
The latter bit is likely mitigated as part of the 3-headed 2-Bigs monster.
The 3-point yips seem to have embedded themselves since he left BOS. He was a career .345 in Boston, but has been a dreadful .287 combined in HOU and CHI.
I imagine the screening ability will still be strong, especially once he is reunited with The Master, Al Horford.
I don't think he was ever a decent 3-point shooter, but he was good enough to make us think he could improve. Career 0.327, but he shot 0.388 on limited attempts (2.7 per 36) in his second year and 0.347 with Boston last year before the trade.
 

Saints Rest

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I don't think he was ever a decent 3-point shooter, but he was good enough to make us think he could improve. Career 0.327, but he shot 0.388 on limited attempts (2.7 per 36) in his second year and 0.347 with Boston last year before the trade.
.345 career 3P % while in Boston, so "decent" may be overstating it. But he wasn't dreadful, not like he's been since leaving BOS.
 

Cesar Crespo

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.345 career 3P % while in Boston, so "decent" may be overstating it. But he wasn't dreadful, not like he's been since leaving BOS.
his volume from 3 went up 50% since leaving the C's.

He's not really a 3 point shooter so much as he takes 3 point shots and hits some of them. Even when he is at a higher %. Other teams want him taking the 3.
 

mcpickl

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We should start a poll on what assets Boston will have to attach to Theis in next years tax ducking deadline salary dump.

I'd guess it might take a couple second round picks.

I think in this trade after arguing all season whether Schroder was worth a first round pick, or a second or two, we found out he was actually worth nothing.
 

lexrageorge

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We should start a poll on what assets Boston will have to attach to Theis in next years tax ducking deadline salary dump.

I'd guess it might take a couple second round picks.

I think in this trade after arguing all season whether Schroder was worth a first round pick, or a second or two, we found out he was actually worth nothing.
Some other scenarios:

1.) Theis becomes a salary matching throw-in in a bigger trade this offseason when the Celtics are primed to make some serious moves.

2.) The Celtics are operating as an over the tax team anyway and trading Theis has no impact.

Still would rather have Theis picking up the bench fouls than Kanter.
 

Cellar-Door

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We should start a poll on what assets Boston will have to attach to Theis in next years tax ducking deadline salary dump.

I'd guess it might take a couple second round picks.

I think in this trade after arguing all season whether Schroder was worth a first round pick, or a second or two, we found out he was actually worth nothing.
There was pretty good reporting that several teams offerred a 2nd and a scrub expiring, but BOS after the win streak wanted a player who would play.

I think Theis will be on the team next year if he isn't needed as salary match. We needed a bench big this year, but I would guess Al will not be on this team next year, so there will be an even bigger need for competent big minutes next year.
 

benhogan

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I think in this trade after arguing all season whether Schroder was worth a first round pick, or a second or two, we found out he was actually worth nothing.
Adding White made Schroder redundant. The optimistic POV is Brad turned an MLE into rotation depth at the 5.

The Theis/DS deal was done at the buzzer and hastily put together. So there are some things that weren't great

1. Boston went out of their way to pay Orlando to take BolBol/Dozier to get under the CAP and not have to dump Schroder.
2. BUT as it turned out, Brad would have been better served if he dumped DS on a WC playoff team for a 2nd + flotsam immediately after the White deal.
3. They also hooked up Houston, since Sengun makes Theis completely useless to them. They got out of those years
4. Houston will dump DS. Potential EC playoff foes (Bucks, Bulls, Cavs) will have interest.

I wonder what kind of contract Schroder signs this summer?
 

mcpickl

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Some other scenarios:

1.) Theis becomes a salary matching throw-in in a bigger trade this offseason when the Celtics are primed to make some serious moves.

2.) The Celtics are operating as an over the tax team anyway and trading Theis has no impact.

Still would rather have Theis picking up the bench fouls than Kanter.
This isn't true.

We've now seen two years in a row that the Celtics will trade away assets to duck the tax.

I'm guessing they'll be doing it a third time next year with Theis


There was pretty good reporting that several teams offerred a 2nd and a scrub expiring, but BOS after the win streak wanted a player who would play.

I think Theis will be on the team next year if he isn't needed as salary match. We needed a bench big this year, but I would guess Al will not be on this team next year, so there will be an even bigger need for competent big minutes next year.
I haven't seen that good reporting on the Celtics being offered a 2nd for Schroder, but I don't think those reports hold water. If those offers really existed, I'd imagine Boston would've taken it since they didn't have to match salaries to get Theis. He could fit into the Tristan trade exception. Or the trade with Houston would've become a 3 way deal with Houston flipping him for that 2nd/scrub expiring package, because Houston has no use for Schroder.

And I agree Theis will be on the team next year, because I don't think teams are going to be clamoring to pick up his contract. Paying a backup center 17.8M over the next two years is pretty rich. I'm sure Houston can't believe their luck they got outta that mistake for nothing.

Adding White made Schroder redundant. The optimistic POV is Brad turned an MLE into rotation depth at the 5.

The Theis/DS deal was done at the buzzer and hastily put together. So there are some things that weren't great

1. Boston went out of their way to pay Orlando to take BolBol/Dozier to get under the CAP and not have to dump Schroder.
2. BUT as it turned out, Brad would have been better served if he dumped DS on a WC playoff team for a 2nd + flotsam immediately after the White deal.
3. They also hooked up Houston, since Sengun makes Theis completely useless to them. They got out of those years
4. Houston will dump DS. Potential EC playoff foes (Bucks, Bulls, Cavs) will have interest.

I wonder what kind of contract Schroder signs this summer?
I agree they definitely hooked up Houston.
 

Cellar-Door

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I haven't seen that good reporting on the Celtics being offered a 2nd for Schroder, but I don't think those reports hold water. If those offers really existed, I'd imagine Boston would've taken it since they didn't have to match salaries to get Theis. He could fit into the Tristan trade exception. Or the trade with Houston would've become a 3 way deal with Houston flipping him for that 2nd/scrub expiring package, because Houston has no use for Schroder.
The trick was that there was no team willing to trade a second AND send back no salary... so you had to choose that deal (Schroder for a 2nd and a player or two who are terrible making $5M, OR the Theis deal, because otherwise you end up in the tax.

Way too many people had the same CHI deal for that not to have been really on the table to me... I'm pretty sure the CLE one was as well. The Theis trade is a much better trade, Theis is a good player, and his salary is essentially irrelevant this year, and pretty easy to plan around or move if you really need to, though I doubt they will, they're going to be much more open to the tax next year now that they know they can get through Brown's fully deal without the repeater.
 

lovegtm

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The trick was that there was no team willing to trade a second AND send back no salary... so you had to choose that deal (Schroder for a 2nd and a player or two who are terrible making $5M, OR the Theis deal, because otherwise you end up in the tax.

Way too many people had the same CHI deal for that not to have been really on the table to me... I'm pretty sure the CLE one was as well. The Theis trade is a much better trade, Theis is a good player, and his salary is essentially irrelevant this year, and pretty easy to plan around or move if you really need to, though I doubt they will, they're going to be much more open to the tax next year now that they know they can get through Brown's fully deal without the repeater.
Yup, if the plan is to move Horford for a top-30ish guy or elite shooting guard/wing in the summer (extremely likely), I'd far prefer Theis to a 2nd round pick.
 

benhogan

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Yup, if the plan is to move Horford for a top-30ish guy or elite shooting guard/wing in the summer (extremely likely), I'd far prefer Theis to a 2nd round pick.
Yep the team is evolving. IME gets to "try on" Theis this season to see if he can replace Horford. Have to believe Brad knows what DT can offer. Maybe DT + TL is even more lethal defensively? If the ultimate downside is a 2nd next trade deadline that's a good gamble.
 

Imbricus

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I don't think he was ever a decent 3-point shooter
Theis was just adding the three-point shot to his game, as I recall, at the end of his tenure with the Celtics. He took wide-open threes. Occasionally he made one or two. "Decent" is definitely a stretch.
 

lexrageorge

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This isn't true.

We've now seen two years in a row that the Celtics will trade away assets to duck the tax.

I'm guessing they'll be doing it a third time next year with Theis
Last season was a bridge year once Hayward signed with Charlotte and it became obvious that rest and rehab were not enough to heal Kemba's knee. No need to pay luxury tax on Ainge's hastily assembled roster of misfits.

I don't consider Bol Bol or Dozier assets, and the two 2nd round picks were fine to lose.

We'll see what next season's team looks like; if they are true contenders (a big "if", but still), then they will be paying tax. Stevens will have an offseason not saddled with Ainge's mistakes to clean up.
 

pjheff

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The optimistic POV is Brad turned an MLE into rotation depth at the 5.
He also turned a one year deal into a three year deal, much like he turned a potentially expiring TPE into a four year contract. These players can help the team on the floor today and give Brad flexibility to make deals in the future.
 

benhogan

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He also turned a one year deal into a three year deal, much like he turned a potentially expiring TPE into a four year contract. These players can help the team on the floor today and give Brad flexibility to make deals in the future.
100% agree. I'm in the optimistic camp on both.

Also not sure when they will negotiate the new TV deal, but the Players Union is going to be getting a sizeable jump in the CAP after the COVID flattening effect. Having longer-dated deals in today's dollars is beneficial

In a vacuum, the Theis & White deals are probably slight "overpays" but Brad was looking for very specific talents and the future effects.

If I was to guess, I'd say Danny probably passes on both deals and goes with DS/JRich as bench depth/ Enes as 3rd string 5.