The Secondary Revis(ed)
- Thread starter soxfan121
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Genuine question.
Do you guys think that the emphasis during the preseason and thus far the regular season has impacted the way Revis plays?
Everyone knows he's at his best in press man coverage. He struggled last year in the Tampa 2 (and recovering from ACL surgery, to be fair).
Have the Patriots been playing off man and zone more to shade or mask deficiencies elsewhere? Have they been playing off more because of the rule changes? It seems like the rule changes would directly impact someone with Revis's style of physical play and coverage.
Do you guys think that the emphasis during the preseason and thus far the regular season has impacted the way Revis plays?
Everyone knows he's at his best in press man coverage. He struggled last year in the Tampa 2 (and recovering from ACL surgery, to be fair).
Have the Patriots been playing off man and zone more to shade or mask deficiencies elsewhere? Have they been playing off more because of the rule changes? It seems like the rule changes would directly impact someone with Revis's style of physical play and coverage.
I believe Bill doesn't want to give up the big play. He wants to force opposing teams into third downs and make a play to get off the field, and is willing to give up short completion after short completion. It's kind of what teams are doing to the Patriots right now, since they're not really capable of big plays. The problem with that idea is that when you can't stop the run, you can't get into 3rd and long.
Revis was playing a lot of off coverage looks Week 1, which made more sense because Wallace has absurd speed, but it didn't make so much sense to see it last night, considering Alex Smith generally throws short on everything. Browner is a 100 percent press man corner and Revis has always been excellent at using his hands and redirecting receivers as well. Playing another kind of defense doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Regarding the rules: the Seahawks sure haven't been affected by the rules much. You have to play your game and force them to make the call.
Revis was playing a lot of off coverage looks Week 1, which made more sense because Wallace has absurd speed, but it didn't make so much sense to see it last night, considering Alex Smith generally throws short on everything. Browner is a 100 percent press man corner and Revis has always been excellent at using his hands and redirecting receivers as well. Playing another kind of defense doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Regarding the rules: the Seahawks sure haven't been affected by the rules much. You have to play your game and force them to make the call.
Beyond Revis, do you think tighter rules on defensive holding and hands to the face impacts Belichick's system?
Does decreased physicality hurt zone schemes and put emphasis on tight man coverage and getting to the QB? Does it shift the balance towards Rex Ryan's defensive schemes circa 2012 and away from Belichick's schemes? Or is it all just about pass rush talent that we don't have?
Does decreased physicality hurt zone schemes and put emphasis on tight man coverage and getting to the QB? Does it shift the balance towards Rex Ryan's defensive schemes circa 2012 and away from Belichick's schemes? Or is it all just about pass rush talent that we don't have?
I think this is a good question, because when you play a physical press coverage, you typically are aiming to disrupt the timing on the short and intermediate passes and hopefully give your pass rush that extra second to get to the quarterback.crystalline said:
It would seem that if you are struggling to generate a pass rush, and you have the talent and personnel to play press coverage, then 2+2 should equal 4.
He is being used more in zone than anything and they are wasting his talents. Get him in the face of a receiver on the line of scrimmage and let him take away half the field. If he gets beat that is what DMC is there for to play center field.
I wonder if, when Dennard and Browner are both back, in game shape, and fully ready to go, BB will start to implement a more aggressive press coverage. Maybe by that time Easley will be ready to make more of an impact rushing the passer too.
Of course, maybe I'm dreaming.
Of course, maybe I'm dreaming.
sodenj5 said:
A small note, it's not true that Revis struggled last year. Despite the "misuse" and the injury, Revis allowed only 1 reception out of 16.4 cover opportunities, 2nd best in the league behind Richard Sherman.
I don't think it's true they're playing more zone than anything. They mix up coverages. They've played a lot of man, too. They just sucked at everything yesterday.jsinger121 said:
Super Nomario said:
They like to mix up coverages and mix up the play calling on offense as well, which is done for obvious reasons, but I often wonder if the coaches mix things up too often for the sake of mixing things up, rather than just playing more consistently to their strengths and their opponents' weaknesses. As far as I'm concerned, Revis should be in man almost every play, with McCourty roaming by himself at the back of the D. I'm only half-joking when I say they may as well be playing 5 DL and taking Chung off the field, especially against your KC's of the world. With Revis and McCourty, I refuse to believe a creative D coordinator couldn't do better than what we've been seeing in terms of getting more pressure on the QB. If you can't get pressure with 4 or stop the run anyway, there's no reason not to start taking bigger risks more often. Bend but don't break isn't going to cut it with this front 4.
What you call mixing things up "for the sake of mixing things up," others might call trying to be less predictable. They got absolutely burned to a crisp on the Knile Davis 48-yard run in large part because they were playing a vanilla man Cover 1, were obvious about it, and KC had the perfect playcall for it. Teams are too smart to get away with doing the same thing over and over again, unless you're stacked top-to-bottom like Seattle last year.Ed Hillel said:
There are people arguing that the playcalling last night was too predictable, and others arguing the playcalling was trying to be too clever. I think that's just how playcalling is; you never get the perfect balance, and sometimes you err on either side. The other side is calling plays, too. That's not to say the coaching wasn't a problem last night: the Patriots played shitty fundamental football and sucked at everything they tried to execute.
BB addressed this in his PC today. He was specifically asked about simplifying. He said that you're not going to run the same play every time, and neither are you going to run a different play every time. Somewhere in there is the sweet spot.Ed Hillel said:
Over the last two weeks against teams with multiple WR threats, we've seen a pattern emerge from the Patriots secondary.
Colts - Revis covers Reggie Wayne (#2 option), rest of secondary covers #1 option (bracket coverage).
Lions - Revis covers Golden Tate (#2 option), Browner/safeties over top cover #1 option (Calvin Johnson).
Depending on match ups, this is something they've done throughout the season. Revis on Greg Jennings (when teams still had respect for Cordarrelle Patterson) and Revis on Emmanuel Sanders. It's apparent that the Patriots are using their shutdown corner in less traditional methods. They completely lock down the second best player with Revis, and choose to bracket - in some form - the #1 option.
No matter how great a corner is (and Revis is great), BB seems to feel that bracketing the best receiver is more successful than trying to man him up 1-on-1 with your best corner. It's interesting (and working).
I also think that we can assume going into next week that the Patriots defense aligns in a very similar scheme as they did this week against the Lions. Like Detroit, Green Bay has a strong, fast #1 WR (Nelson), and a fantastic possession WR (Cobb). I feel comfortable saying that we see a lot of Revis on Cobb and Browner/bracket coverage on Nelson. It's a recipe that has been working, and I feel uncomfortably comfortable with the Patriots defense against the Packers offense next week.
Colts - Revis covers Reggie Wayne (#2 option), rest of secondary covers #1 option (bracket coverage).
Lions - Revis covers Golden Tate (#2 option), Browner/safeties over top cover #1 option (Calvin Johnson).
Depending on match ups, this is something they've done throughout the season. Revis on Greg Jennings (when teams still had respect for Cordarrelle Patterson) and Revis on Emmanuel Sanders. It's apparent that the Patriots are using their shutdown corner in less traditional methods. They completely lock down the second best player with Revis, and choose to bracket - in some form - the #1 option.
No matter how great a corner is (and Revis is great), BB seems to feel that bracketing the best receiver is more successful than trying to man him up 1-on-1 with your best corner. It's interesting (and working).
I also think that we can assume going into next week that the Patriots defense aligns in a very similar scheme as they did this week against the Lions. Like Detroit, Green Bay has a strong, fast #1 WR (Nelson), and a fantastic possession WR (Cobb). I feel comfortable saying that we see a lot of Revis on Cobb and Browner/bracket coverage on Nelson. It's a recipe that has been working, and I feel uncomfortably comfortable with the Patriots defense against the Packers offense next week.
I was just going to post about that. Is there a history of other teams with top shutdown corners using them on the number 2 receiver while giving safety help to the second best CB covering the best receiver?
I'm sure I'm over simplifying. And Browner's no joke.
I'm sure I'm over simplifying. And Browner's no joke.
This seems as good a place as any to ask this: McCourty has seemed largely invisible lately. Is this a sign of the excellence of the other pieces of the secondary, meaning that as free safety, he is rarely called upon? Or has be simply not been impactful this year?
As was pointed out int he Game Ball Thread (Lions edition), Chung has been a surprising stand-out -- in a good way -- perhaps in large part due to the fact that he now can play his best role as a SS. Likewise, I think Arrington has been excellent this season as they have been able to leave him as slot CB.
Amazing to consider that Dennard has hardly seen the field -- ditto Ryan and Harmon. A lot of depth.
As was pointed out int he Game Ball Thread (Lions edition), Chung has been a surprising stand-out -- in a good way -- perhaps in large part due to the fact that he now can play his best role as a SS. Likewise, I think Arrington has been excellent this season as they have been able to leave him as slot CB.
Amazing to consider that Dennard has hardly seen the field -- ditto Ryan and Harmon. A lot of depth.
Good call KFP. I'd guess they're using bracketing to cover Browner's flaws and maximize his strengths. It's a lot easier for Revis to shut down a #2 than a #1 and so you can afford to send another player Browner's way. If you switched it, you could still leave Revis on the #1, but then he's working a lot harder and is more vulnerable and Browner will still probably require some help upfield. It just seems like the way BB's playing it, puts less stress on the backfield and allows an extra player to give Revis' side less attention.
Donta Hightower on the postgame made a comment that Trow Borwn followed up on. Mentioned that the performance of the CB's in coverage and abundance of man coverage has allowed McCourty to be further from the LOS, playing the true CF position. That's one of the reasons why he's not in on many tackles or defending many (any?) passes. Overall, it's a good thing to know that we have a guy like McCourty as the last line in case someone breaks freeSaints Rest said:
I made this point in the game thread, too, but I think part of it is Revis' versatility. Wayne and Tate line up inside a lot (~64%) and outside a fair amount. Cobb is more of a pure slot guy (~90%), so I wouldn't be surprised to see Arrington there.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Also, Browner on Nelson scares me. Nelson does a lot of deep stuff, but it's largely along the sideline where it's almost impossible to provide safety help.
McCourty is impactful in that he's largely patrolling the deep middle of the field by himself and letting everyone else play to their strengths. With a lesser free safety (like, the dudes Chung played next to in his first go-round in NE), the Patriots would have to play a lot more two-deep shells.Saints Rest said:
What about differences in physicality? Browner looked to be disrupting Johnson by jamming him at the line. Revis is a little small for that.
We saw some of that strategy last year too, where Talib with his size was used on teams' big receivers like Jimmy Graham, and hitting them at the line.
We saw some of that strategy last year too, where Talib with his size was used on teams' big receivers like Jimmy Graham, and hitting them at the line.
Myt1 said:
I was thinking this same thing while watching the game. They must have figured that Johnson was too good to be single-covered if if by Revis, and perhaps thought that Browner would have to get help on Tate but Revis wouldn't. Makes a fair amount of sense, really; get a WR shut down by one DB and give help to the other.
The huge improvements with Chung and Arrington are shocking. They're totally different guys now. Thanks, Revis.
It's amazing what Arrington can do when not left outside one-on-one with a WR. Just had to find his proper role.
He really is. Once in a while you get to watch someone who is so fucking awesome at something that it's incredible. Moss and Gronk are obvious offensive examples but Revis is similar.
One that crossing route yesterday, Revis looked one or two steps behind the receiver (I forget who it was)--but he closed at the last second and swatted the ball away as though he was baiting Stafford to throw his way. The dude runs the routes better than the receivers do.