The Tebow Zone

dcmissle

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So if we're going to explore these concepts, let's do it with Pat White, who is a better passer, better suited to the zone read, and virtually certain to be cut by the Redskins, who will keep Grossman as #3.
 

dcmissle

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CaptainLaddie said:
Aggggggggg I JUST WANT THIS FUCKING THREAD TO DIE
 
 
Ben Volin says we'll eat our lima beans and like them.  Long term project.  Get over it.
 
There is support for this in recent BB statements to the effect that Tebow is improving, and in remark a couple of days back that nobody can judge what he or she sees on film without the playbook in hand -- though how that gets one past a zero passer rating is beyond me, unless you posit other people on the offense being primarily at fault for every INC and INT.
 
BB's remarks has a truculent tone.
 

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Can't believe I actually read a bleacher report article, but Mike Freeman:
 
It's not just that Tebow can no longer play quarterback, or any other skill position, in the NFL - it's that unless Tebow switches to a strictly blocking position, he is not talented enough to play in leagues like the Canadian Football League and Arena Football League.
 
Tebow's skills have eroded so quickly, so shockingly fast - think heavy boulder dropped from low orbit - that it has actually stunned several scouts who have watched him closely for years.
 
The belief is that Tebow has been and will continue to be so bad, that the Patriots will have no choice but to cut him loose from the roster.
 
Now, just to be clear: None of this is presented as Tebow-bashing or a type of huge exposé. To some, this isn't even shocking. To me, some of this was. Scouts I trust saying Tebow isn’t fit to play arena ball?
Scouts say they don't recognize the Tebow they saw in college. His regression has been so steep that I don't believe there is a league he can now play in.
Patriots coach Bill Belichick says Tebow is improving, but no one believes that. There's no way even Belichick believes that. Barring a transplant of Bart Starr's mitochondria into Tebow’s synapses, what we are seeing with Tebow is the end.
 

OCST

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Scouts say they don't recognize the Tebow they saw in college. His regression has been so steep that I don't believe there is a league he can now play in.
 
How can this be?  I can't remember another case of someone *regressing* in their first few years.  I can understand if they're saying that he was good enough to dominate college, but not good enough for the NFL - sort of the football equivalent of a AAAA player.  But that isn't what they're saying. Regressing?  I don't think I've ever heard of a young player getting worse, not better, in any sport.
 
The only thing I can think of is that it really is mental/conceptual; the game at this level really is too fast and complicated, and he can't get it.
 
Edit: Duh, of course (about the not getting worse part).  It happens with pitchers all the time.
 

Super Nomario

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OilCanShotTupac said:
I don't think I've ever heard of a young player getting worse, not better, in any sport.

Really?
 
EDIT, with non-snarky addendum: If the Patriots are serious about Tebow as a QB, then he basically needs to be rebuilt from the ground up; his mechanics, his reads, his approach to the position. He's been playing a certain way since high school, at least - running a lot, throwing bubble screens, bombing it out deep - and he's maxed out how far he can go playing that style. If the Pats are serious about Tebow the QB, they're asking him to change, and it's natural that at first he's going to struggle, more than he would playing the way he's used to. So what appears to be regression could just be him buying in and trying things the way the Pats are asking him to and sucking at it.
 
That said, a) he probably will never be able to get there, b) he may not show enough progress to make the team, c) even if he does make the team, this would put him at the tail end of the roster, inactive pretty much every week. That's why I disagree with the OP of this thread; if the Pats are really serious about Tebow and his development, then he's going to sit even if he makes the team.
 

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Super Nomario said:
 
EDIT, with non-snarky addendum: If the Patriots are serious about Tebow as a QB, then he basically needs to be rebuilt from the ground up; his mechanics, his reads, his approach to the position. He's been playing a certain way since high school, at least - running a lot, throwing bubble screens, bombing it out deep - and he's maxed out how far he can go playing that style. If the Pats are serious about Tebow the QB, they're asking him to change, and it's natural that at first he's going to struggle, more than he would playing the way he's used to. So what appears to be regression could just be him buying in and trying things the way the Pats are asking him to and sucking at it.
 
Based on your post here:
 
Super Nomario said:
First, I think the offensive line was a bit overrated last year. The Patriots' sack rate was fifth-lowest in the league, at 4.0, but how much of that was the O-line and how much was Brady? Consider that, per PFF, Brady had the shortest average-time-to-throw of any QB in the league, and he was third in shortest average-time-to-sack. That suggests to me that much of the OL success was #12's quick release. And for all the yards the offense piled up on the ground (partially abetted by a no-huddle that caught teams with their pants down), they were actually a tick below league average (4.3) in yards per carry (4.2). But this makes sense. The offensive line was expected to struggle last year, with Light and Waters retiring, new starters in Solder and Wendell, and Connolly shifting to RG. They were solid, better-than-expected, but I don't think they would have looked like a top-five unit with a mortal quarterback.
 
This year's different. Solder and Wendell have another year of experience. All the returning starters are back. Mankins and Vollmer enter the season healthier. Interior depth is light with the departures of Donald Thomas and Nick McDonald, but tackle depth has never been better, with versatile veteran Will Svitek joining youngsters Cannon and Zusevics. Is it possible the OL takes a jump forward from an above-average unit (that Brady made look like a top-5 group) to one of the best lines in the league? Is a 2007-type performance out of the question?
 
it seems like if the O-line doesn't take a step forward, they could be singularly poorly suited for working with Tebow. This all jibes with Volin's answer to my questions about Scarnacchia--the greater the extent to which it is actually Brady making the line look good, the worse it bodes for Tebow, at least in terms of the passing game with his trebuchet arm.
 

Super Nomario

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Reverend said:
it seems like if the O-line doesn't take a step forward, they could be singularly poorly suited for working with Tebow. This all jibes with Volin's answer to my questions about Scarnacchia--the greater the extent to which it is actually Brady making the line look good, the worse it bodes for Tebow, at least in terms of the passing game with his trebuchet arm.
I wouldn't say "singularly"; any O-line would struggle trying to pass block for Tebow. But I agree with your point, and that's why Tebow's mechanics have to be fixed even if you plan on running an unconventional offense with him.
 
In theory a running quarterback should have some advantages when it comes to the pass rush. Ends have to stay honest and keep contain, and it's riskier to run stunts and other games if a QB can take off.
 

Reverend

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Fair point--singularly is not correct, but yeah, if Brady's been making them look good, serious flaws could be revealed with a QB with a delivery time length of Tebow's under center.
 
A running WB certainly changes things, but I think overall, Tebow's time in Denver showed that a good defensive strategy could balance out his good runs with the losses he provides under the right schemes, especially since he doesn't have a strong ability to pass himself out of the holes he digs himself at 2nd and 3rd and long. I don wonder about the line and Brady's incredible effectiveness on 4th and short--is whatever the line does something they can use with Tebow? But then at the same time, Brady is so good at 4th and short, why would you ever bring him out?
 

Stitch01

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Brady's short yardage effectiveness has almost nothng to do with the line. Hes converting most of those presnap, especially anything one yard or over. His effectiveness comes from being awesome fundamentally on the sub one yard plays and reading when he can convert because of how the defense is lining up on longer plays. It's not transferable to Tebow, but Tebow would have a much better chance of using his athleticism to successfully converting in situations where Brady would never call his own number.
 

Reverend

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Stitch01 said:
Brady's short yardage effectiveness has almost nothng to do with the line. Hes converting most of those presnap, especially anything one yard or over. His effectiveness comes from being awesome fundamentally on the sub one yard plays and reading when he can convert because of how the defense is lining up on longer plays. It's not transferable to Tebow, but Tebow would have a much better chance of using his athleticism to successfully converting in situations where Brady would never call his own number.
I actually would include the fact that he's taken the steps to learn to keep his knees off the ground while driving forward (though that may be what you mean by (awesome fundamentally), but do you really think the line has nothing to do with it? I alwyas thought they got good push on the QB sneaks and if anything wondered if it was because they trusted Brady to make them look awesome.
 

Stitch01

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Yeah that's part of what i meant by awesome fundamentally. The line having nothing to do with it might be a touch strong, but only a touch.
 

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Here's the thing that frustrates me about Tebow. BB praise guys who show versatility. Vereen splits out. Edelman has played DB/QB/PR. Solder has shown some at TE. Half the team plays special teams. Yet Tebow's entitled ass wants QB or nothing.
 
I'd be fine with him being the 53rd guy if he did something besides riding the pine as 3rd QB. He's a big dude who I'm sure could learn to block as a fullback or TE. He's a good runner, he could line up next to Brady as an H-Back. nothing crazy, like once or twice a half, just to give the other team something to think about.
 
With a lefty H-Back who throws, maybe he could do this
 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nUJkVIX0jI skip to 25 seconds
 
But nope, if he's on the team, he'll be stapled to the bench. what a waste
 

wutang112878

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Infield Infidel said:
Yet Tebow's entitled ass wants QB or nothing.
 
 
Its possible Bill told him to stick to the 'I am just a QB' thing to limit the hype and speculation
 

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Infield Infidel said:
Here's the thing that frustrates me about Tebow. BB praise guys who show versatility. Vereen splits out. Edelman has played DB/QB/PR. Solder has shown some at TE. Half the team plays special teams. Yet Tebow's entitled ass wants QB or nothing.
 
I'd be fine with him being the 53rd guy if he did something besides riding the pine as 3rd QB. He's a big dude who I'm sure could learn to block as a fullback or TE. He's a good runner, he could line up next to Brady as an H-Back. nothing crazy, like once or twice a half, just to give the other team something to think about.
While he's pretty big for a QB, he's not that big for a TE. He's listed at 6'2" 236. Hernandez is 6'2" 250 and Gronk is 6'6" 265.
 
 
wutang112878 said:
Its possible Bill told him to stick to the 'I am just a QB' thing to limit the hype and speculation
If he doesn't want to be a QB or bust, then he has changed his mind since his public statements on the matter when he was with the Jets.
 

Shelterdog

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Infield Infidel said:
Here's the thing that frustrates me about Tebow. BB praise guys who show versatility. Vereen splits out. Edelman has played DB/QB/PR. Solder has shown some at TE. Half the team plays special teams. Yet Tebow's entitled ass wants QB or nothing.
 
I'd be fine with him being the 53rd guy if he did something besides riding the pine as 3rd QB. He's a big dude who I'm sure could learn to block as a fullback or TE. He's a good runner, he could line up next to Brady as an H-Back. nothing crazy, like once or twice a half, just to give the other team something to think about.
 
With a lefty H-Back who throws, maybe he could do this
 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nUJkVIX0jI skip to 25 seconds
 
But nope, if he's on the team, he'll be stapled to the bench. what a waste
 
I've hit my VaR in the "QBs who can't throw a lick" portfolio but I strongly suspect that if Tebow makes the team he gets involved in trickeration of one sort or another.  Now is he going to be a better TE than Studfeld or a better FB than Develin? Probably not but sure, I think he'd be willing to go some non QB stuff.
 

wutang112878

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Reverend said:
If he doesn't want to be a QB or bust, then he has changed his mind since his public statements on the matter when he was with the Jets.
 
I didnt remember those.  But if he is still sticking to that his decision making is pretty awful off the field as well
 

dcmissle

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Shelterdog said:
 
It's supposed to be a fun thread (and hopefully serves to keep other threads from getting derailed) but I'm not clowning: I honestly believe BB signed Tebow thinking (1) Tebow would make the team and (2) that he'd play Tebow some (relatively small) number of snaps instead of Brady because the read-option is a pretty potent weapon. (I also think BB is thinking about what he's going to do if Brady gets hurt and tag teaming Mallett and Tebow until one firmly establishs himself is reasonably appealling as well).
 
I'll say it again:  if he's serious about exploring these offensive concepts, BB should swap out Tebow and swap in Pat White. 
 
White is a better passer, more elusive runner, and has shown vastly better than Tebow in the pre-season games.  White is 4 on Redkskins depth chart and very unlikely to survive because #3, Rex Grossman, is an excellent coach on and off the field and knows the 'Skins offense better than everyone except the guy who installed it, Kyle Shanahan.
 

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The problem with any QB, I repeat any QB (Vick/RGIII/Newton/Kapaernick/etc) running a read-option as a part of the offense, is you have to have superhuman durability.  This isn't a college season where you play 4-5 tough games, 3-4 patsies, and rest up a month for one playoff game.  It's a 16+ game season with real large and fast middle of the field defenders.  I'm perfectly OK with a guy on a roster having a set of designed "change-up" style offensive plays if a coach like BB thinks its "the best for the team".  I don't care to swap him out for a guy who is 6' - 180 (generous), who is going to break in two on a semi-direct hit.
 
Stop talking about Pat White please, I followed nearly every game he played in college and found myself asking "is he going to play next week" a few too many times.  I know he's a better passer, but you know who is a better passer than Pat White? Ryan Mallet and nearly every other QB who is likely to be looking for work in the next two weeks.
 

dcmissle

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By definition you are talking about rare use. If Brady is healthy, you are talking about NO use save for garbage time. The question becomes, from a practice standpoint, who can render a more accurate depiction of the guys you mention above. The answer is White over Tebow.

As shown above, my point was preceded by "If ..." Personally, I'd have neither of them.
 

Super Nomario

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If the Pats cut Tebow, is anyone signing him? He seems like a shadow roster candidate. Keep his locker intact, let him hang on to his playbook, give him the number of Brady's throwing coach, and tell him you'll call in a couple weeks when a spot opens up.
 

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Super Nomario said:
If the Pats cut Tebow, is anyone signing him? He seems like a shadow roster candidate. Keep his locker intact, let him hang on to his playbook, give him the number of Brady's throwing coach, and tell him you'll call in a couple weeks when a spot opens up.
This is all true, but if the Pats are gonna keep Tebow in any capacity, I'd rather see him stay on the roster so he can still be part of practice, film session, etc. Would rather see a guy like Fells or Washington or Cole be on the "shadow" roster.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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dcmissle said:
By definition you are talking about rare use. If Brady is healthy, you are talking about NO use save for garbage time. The question becomes, from a practice standpoint, who can render a more accurate depiction of the guys you mention above. The answer is White over Tebow.

As shown above, my point was preceded by "If ..." Personally, I'd have neither of them.
Looks like we agree then.  I just doubt anyone lasts too long running that as a primary offense.
 

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If the Pats cut Tebow, is anyone signing him? He seems like a shadow roster candidate.


The Jets need a QB.
 

dcmissle

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PaulinMyrBch said:
Looks like we agree then.  I just doubt anyone lasts too long running that as a primary offense.
 
 
That is THE most interesting question on the table, isn't it?  I tend to be with you in large part, but if we're wrong QB in the NFL may be revolutionized.
 
We may have to go QB by QB.  I have little doubt that if Vick and RGIII play the position this year like RGIII played it last year, they won't last very long.  So far Russell Wilson has been very adept in avoiding the big hit. 
 

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I bet this is more about what OTHER teams are cutting.
 
I assuming that BB knew what he had on his roster...and TT was was one of the best 53.  However based on needs (DL, TE, S) depending on Cuts TT is NOT better...not more important to the team then one of the guys that could be picked up.
 
Whats up with Zach Miller?  Saw he had a foot injury but has played since that report.  Does he have anything left?
 

Hambone

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So should we just add a poll to this thread for what week he'll be back on the roster, start a new thread or just Tebow-ize every other thread when appropriate? 
 
I mean reality is we just need him for pre-game prayers once we make the playoffs.
 

Dogman

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11-30 (!) for 145 2 TD, 2 INT and 7 sacks in the preseason. 
 
Some of his sacks could be attributed to the 2nd/3rd stringers OL but I think his decisions to hold the ball way to long are mostly to blame. 
 
He was nowhere close to top 53. 
 

Tony C

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Harry Hooper said:
 
 
Buffalo?
 
Maybe Oakland -- combine him with Pryor and double down on awful?
 
CaptainLaddie said:
Can we just never talk about him again?
 
Says the guy with more posts on Tebow than anyone.  If you don't want to talk about him again more you should just...not talk about him again. It's easy, actually....I moved on long ago.
 

JimD

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Our long pigskin nightmare is over.
 
Seems like Belichick gets a little too clever at times - this whole signing had 'I'm smarter than the rest of you guys' written all over it.
 

dcmissle

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Why are we going the "arrogance" route?  What did the investment cost BB and the team?  Time? 
 
Don't lock this thread so soon.  I don't believe TT will be back barring injury.  I do believe some one could take this place.
 

CaptainLaddie

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Tony C said:
Says the guy with more posts on Tebow than anyone.  If you don't want to talk about him again more you should just...not talk about him again. It's easy, actually....I moved on long ago.
Posts saying how awful he is, and how he should never have been signed != Tebow! posts from you and 121.  And bullshit you moved on long ago.
 

Ferm Sheller

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CaptainLaddie said:
Tim Tebow is a shitty fucking NFL quarterback.  He's not one of the 53 best players from camp.
 
That's not relevant, though.  He wasn't competing against players of other positions. He was clearly the third best QB.
 

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Ferm Sheller said:
 
That's not relevant, though.  He wasn't competing against players of other positions. He was clearly the third best QB.
 
But for a team that rarely carries a 3rd QB, Tebow was competing -- in part -- with other positional players who are ST contributors. I don't agree that he wasn't competing with anyone else for a spot.
 

Orange Juice

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Allow me to adjust my tinfoil hat.

All this time BB knows that Tebow is a bad QB that actually hurts the team he plays for or that BB knows how to outplay. With that in mind he signs Tebow and waits to cut him until he has a decent showing in the preseason hoping that a team with QB troubles (Bills, Jets etc.) sign him out of desperation giving BB a potential advantage if everything lines up correctly and Tebow is the starter when/if the Pats play that team. BB genius strikes again.
 

soxfan121

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CaptainLaddie said:
Good night.
 
Tony and 121, you guys can kick rocks.
 

 
CaptainLaddie said:
Posts saying how awful he is, and how he should never have been signed != Tebow! posts from you and 121.  And bullshit you moved on long ago.
 
There have been thousands of Tebow posts in this forum. A very small percentage of them expressed any enthusiasm at the (honest) level of "Tebow!" The vast majority of them say how awful he is and how he never should have been signed. 
 
You are the guy pressing down his brakes to a full stop, staring at the car accident and bitching about the morons creating the traffic. 
 
But do your touchdown dance...you've earned it Laddie. 
 

axx

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Funny, Mike Rodak over at ESPN Boston makes the case for the Bills taking a look at Tebow. Would they pick up Tebow and play him (instead of Tuel) until Manuel is better? Kolb's concussion really screwed things up for them.
 

CaptainLaddie

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soxfan121 said:
 

 
 
There have been thousands of Tebow posts in this forum. A very small percentage of them expressed any enthusiasm at the (honest) level of "Tebow!" The vast majority of them say how awful he is and how he never should have been signed. 
 
You are the guy pressing down his brakes to a full stop, staring at the car accident and bitching about the morons creating the traffic. 
 
But do your touchdown dance...you've earned it Laddie. 
 
I know.  I'm busting your balls.