The Unwritten Rules of Baseball: Your opinion?

[Lose Remerswaal]

So last night the Sox and Yankees had a couple of rhubarbs due to perceived violations or enforcements of the "Unwritten Rules of Baseball".

As these rules are, by definition, not written down, no one really knows what they are, but lots of folks think they know what they are.

Do you think these are important enough Rules that they should continue to be obeyed?

 

[Sampo Gida]

Well, unwritten rules are only enforced by players on the field. Usually violation of said rules involves getting HBP (Austin, machado) or punched in the face (odor vs Bautista)

I guess it depends on the rule. I find the rule against bat flips silly and would not accept enforcement against that. I accept enforcement of the rule against dirty slides. Holt could have been seriously injured on a play everyone with an IQ over 80 knew was not going to be a DP. Austin was a dope.

I didn't vote because I was not given the option of "it depends on the rule"

 

[Boggs26]

Well, unwritten rules are only enforced by players on the field. Usually violation of said rules involves getting HBP (Austin, machado) or punched in the face (odor vs Bautista)

I guess it depends on the rule. I find the rule against bat flips silly and would not accept enforcement against that. I accept enforcement of the rule against dirty slides. Holt could have been seriously injured on a play everyone with an IQ over 80 knew was not going to be a DP. Austin was a dope.

I didn't vote because I was not given the option of "it depends on the rule"

I'm 100% on board with this. If a guy hits it a mile and watches it go... Deal with it and pitch better next time. But if a guy is sliding in spikes high and the umps can't/don't do anything about it, then I have no issue with the game self-policing.

Where I will probably have an issue again however is when it doesn't for after last night. If the two teams decide it trade HBPs tonight, I'll be right back at "that's stupid".

 

[Tokyo Sox]

A couple of my Yankees fan friends were calling out Kelly because, according to one of them (and quickly seconded by the other), you only get one shot at retribution. Kelly tried to hit Austin, missed, and then hit him. That, to them, was a bush league move because everyone knows you only get one shot at that. Except I’ve never in my life heard of that particular unwritten rule before.

 

[Heating up in the bullpen]

A couple of my Yankees fan friends were calling out Kelly because, according to one of them (and quickly seconded by the other), you only get one shot at retribution. Kelly tried to hit Austin, missed, and then hit him. That, to them, was a bush league move because everyone knows you only get one shot at that. Except I’ve never in my life heard of that particular unwritten rule before.

Wasn't that the same problem Barnes had last year with Machado? Took him too many tries to hit him?

 

[BaseballJones]

Well I wonder why Kelly threw two sliders in that sequence. Let's say that Austin chopped the second one (the one after his failed first attempt to hit him) to second and they made the play. Would that mean they weren't trying to hit him? How does this work?

 

[timlinin8th]

I'm 100% on board with this. If a guy hits it a mile and watches it go... Deal with it and pitch better next time. But if a guy is sliding in spikes high and the umps can't/don't do anything about it, then I have no issue with the game self-policing.

Where I will probably have an issue again however is when it doesn't for after last night. If the two teams decide it trade HBPs tonight, I'll be right back at "that's stupid".

This, plus add in the unwritten rule about running up the score as being one of those ones where the losing team should just shut up and play better.

 

[Average Reds]

A couple of my Yankees fan friends were calling out Kelly because, according to one of them (and quickly seconded by the other), you only get one shot at retribution. Kelly tried to hit Austin, missed, and then hit him. That, to them, was a bush league move because everyone knows you only get one shot at that. Except I’ve never in my life heard of that particular unwritten rule before.

I got three texts from friends who are Yankee fans saying THE EXACT SAME THING in the 10 minutes after Kelly hit Austin. I proceeded to start a group text to all three of them and told them that if I were Kelly, I'd hit him the next time I faced him and the time after that.

 

[Average Reds]

Well I wonder why Kelly threw two sliders in that sequence. Let's say that Austin chopped the second one (the one after his failed first attempt to hit him) to second and they made the play. Would that mean they weren't trying to hit him? How does this work?

Kelly mixed in the sliders for the same reason that Trump claimed that Comey was fired over his handling of the Clinton server investigation: to provide fodder for late night comics.

 

[TheoShmeo]

A couple of my Yankees fan friends were calling out Kelly because, according to one of them (and quickly seconded by the other), you only get one shot at retribution. Kelly tried to hit Austin, missed, and then hit him. That, to them, was a bush league move because everyone knows you only get one shot at that. Except I’ve never in my life heard of that particular unwritten rule before.

My Yankees fan friends say a lot of silly things. A lot of the time.

Your post underscores one of the biggest problems with rules that are unwritten. While I think most would agree with the rule that says you don't bunt in the 9th inning of a perfect game when your team is down 10-0, the situation is a lot different when it's 1-0. What about when it's 3-0 and the top of the order is coming up?

I don't mean to get into a discussion of that particular rule. My point is that there are so many variables that come into play, and I think you would find a wide variety of opinions on a lot of them.

 

[Jerry’s Curl]

I think it depends on the situation and every situation is different. I am all for defending players on your team if they are targeted by the opponent. If Austin is going to make a slide that is perceived as dirty (and being douchey about it instead of remorseful) he better have his big boy pants on and be ready to face consequences.

 

[jon abbey]

I'd say it's a case by case basis, like Brian Dozier was crazy last week when complaining about the other team bunting when they were down 7-0, especially when MIN was in a dramatic defensive shift and essentially conceding the bunt. Tyler Wade came up twice under these circumstances down 14-1 on Tuesday, with BOS still in a drastic shift, and honestly I was surprised he didn't bunt either time, presumably to not violate these unwritten rules.

Last night actually seemed totally reasonable all around to me, Austin's slide wasn't illegal but it was dirty (intentional or unintentional) and it's understandable why Kelly threw at him. If he had hit him the first time, Austin probably doesn't charge the mound, but under the circumstances, I think that was understandable also. Boone said afterwards he thinks it's over now, and if that's the case, I think it's fine.

 

[timlinin8th]

My Yankees fan friends say a lot of silly things. A lot of the time.

Your post underscores one of the biggest problems with rules that are unwritten. While I think most would agree with the rule that says you don't bunt in the 9th inning of a perfect game when your team is down 10-0, the situation is a lot different when it's 1-0. What about when it's 3-0 and the top of the order is coming up?

I don't mean to get into a discussion of that particular rule. My point is that there are so many variables that come into play, and I think you would find a wide variety of opinions on a lot of them.

This post made me think of another one - the unwritten rule that you don’t bunt on a hurt/overweight pitcher and force him to field his position. There was all that furor over bunting on CC last season which was dumb, and the classy Yankees not bunting on Schilling possibly cost them an ALCS (good for us, but probably not the best competitive baseball decision).

My feeling on it is this: its pro baseball, you play to get your team runs, to get yourself stats, and to do cool stuff for your team’s fans. Unwritten rules that are about being less competitive given certain game circumstances are dumb. I don’t care if you are up by a hundred runs, its not the other team’s job to make it easier for your guy to get a perfect game.

Unwritten rules that are about “don’t try to hurt my team’s players, or pulling some weird weaselly shit like an opposing baserunner shouting “I GOT IT” at a fielder playing a popup (or HEY, or whatever it was A-rod did back in the day to distract the infielders), those things that are beyond the pale. They aren’t “baseball plays”.

 

[lexrageorge]

Most of the "unwritten rules" are nothing more than either Cafardo-school nonsense or justification for doing something to relieve your frustrations. If you don't like a player looking at his home run for 2.3 seconds as it leaves the park at the top of the 9th of a 3-3 playoff game, then pitch him better next time.

Sticking up for your teammates is fine, although even that can get out of hand and quickly become an absurdity. Saying that a pitcher needs to do it on a particular pitch is just making stuff up for the sake of making stuff up.

 

[Jerry’s Curl]

Most of the "unwritten rules" are nothing more than either Cafardo-school nonsense or justification for doing something to relieve your frustrations. If you don't like a player looking at his home run for 2.3 seconds as it leaves the park at the top of the 9th of a 3-3 playoff game, then pitch him better next time.

Sticking up for your teammates is fine, although even that can get out of hand and quickly become an absurdity. Saying that a pitcher needs to do it on a particular pitch is just making stuff up for the sake of making stuff up.

You make a good point. Do players feel like they have to retaliate in order to be respected by their teammates? If they don’t, are they perceived as weak? I just wonder if some players feel pressured by “unwritten rules” to do something that may go against their conscience.

 

[rymflaherty]

If it was that egregious and offensive to Holt, why doesn’t he throw hands right there?
If it’s worth the suspension, shouldn’t he be the one doing it, instead of what amounts to having a friend do it for you and use a weapon at a later time when the other person isn’t expecting it?
I’ve always accepted it, but this poll made me think about it some more, and it’s pretty stupid...and cowardly when you really think about it.

 

[Average Reds]

I'd say it's a case by case basis, like Brian Dozier was crazy last week when complaining about the other team bunting when they were down 7-0, especially when MIN was in a dramatic defensive shift and essentially conceding the bunt. Tyler Wade came up twice under these circumstances down 14-1 on Tuesday, with BOS still in a drastic shift, and honestly I was surprised he didn't bunt either time, presumably to not violate these unwritten rules.

Last night actually seemed totally reasonable all around to me, Austin's slide wasn't illegal but it was dirty (intentional or unintentional) and it's understandable why Kelly threw at him. If he had hit him the first time, Austin probably doesn't charge the mound, but under the circumstances, I think that was understandable also. Boone said afterwards he thinks it's over now, and if that's the case, I think it's fine.

This is a reasonable take, but I suspect that it's not really over.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

If it was that egregious and offensive to Holt, why doesn’t he throw hands right there?
If it’s worth the suspension, shouldn’t he be the one doing it, instead of what amounts to having a friend do it for you and use a weapon at a later time when the other person isn’t expecting it?
I’ve always accepted it, but this poll made me think about it some more, and it’s pretty stupid...and cowardly when you really think about it.

EXACTLY how I feel about it. If Holt is the one being endangered by a player on the opposing team, let him do the dirty work. If you want to have your teammate's back, grab an opponent during the brawl and make sure no one cheap shots anyone else. Pitchers throwing at hitters for slights (perceived or real) of their teammates is chicken shit, plain and simple. Kelly deserves the biggest suspension of anyone involved last night.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Beaning batters sucks, but a majority of the time it happens (purposefully) it doesn't lead to a fight. I'm not surprised in the least that a smaller guy like Holt didn't throw down with Austin the turbo meathead after getting spiked. Getting spiked, beat up, and suspended isn't ideal.

 

[BaseballJones]

You make a good point. Do players feel like they have to retaliate in order to be respected by their teammates? If they don’t, are they perceived as weak? I just wonder if some players feel pressured by “unwritten rules” to do something that may go against their conscience.

Good question. All I know is that Kelly seemed more than happy to drill Austin and then throw down with him. Maybe Kelly wasn't looking to come across as macho to his teammates; maybe he was pissed himself and was just eager to get involved.

 

[Jerry’s Curl]

I was very impressed by the way Aaron Judge handled himself on the field and when he was interviewed after the game. I have a new found respect for the man.

 

[Merkle's Boner]

It still amazes me that grown men feel it's acceptable to throw a projectile at over 90 mph from 60 feet 6 inches directly at someone. It's dangerous and it's cowardly. There's got to be a better way to handle these situations.

 

[BaseballJones]

I was very impressed by the way Aaron Judge handled himself on the field and when he was interviewed after the game. I have a new found respect for the man.

I feel towards Judge like I felt towards Mariano. Hate because he's a Yankee, but immense respect for his talent as well as for how he comports himself - dignity and class. It was impossible for me to truly dislike Rivera, who became my favorite non-Sox player of all time (hard to believe that honor fell to a Yankee). Judge isn't there yet for various reasons, but last night showed you why I have similar inclinations about him.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Too many of y'all let Yankee fans be your friends.

 

[Zupcic Fan]

I guess it’s an unwritten rule, but the one thing that strikes me as the absolute silliest is that both dugouts, and especially both bullpens, feel the need to empty out onto the field whenever something like this happens. With all the changes to the game they always discuss, for the life of me I can’t figure out why baseball allows this to happen. Why not just suspend anyone who leaves the dugout or the bullpen, like the NBA does? So Brock Holt gets into a shoving match with a guy, and suddenly everyone is sprinting in from the bullpen? So of course KELLY has to retaliate now. It’s just babyish. Plus now there is the risk that somebody who has no right being on the field in the first place is gonna get injured in the melee.

 

[TheoShmeo]

EXACTLY how I feel about it. If Holt is the one being endangered by a player on the opposing team, let him do the dirty work. If you want to have your teammate's back, grab an opponent during the brawl and make sure no one cheap shots anyone else. Pitchers throwing at hitters for slights (perceived or real) of their teammates is chicken shit, plain and simple. Kelly deserves the biggest suspension of anyone involved last night.

I don't think it's as clear as you are suggesting.

One, Holt was pissed about the spike but probably not pissed enough to want to fight Austin. He probably thought that saying something was sufficient and that Austin might even say something like "my bad" or more likely "hey, wasn't trying to hurt you, you OK?" or something else that showed a little bit of contrition. That Holt chose not to fight him for being douchey in response is also not remarkable.

So to me, Holt not doing the dirty work was not unexpected. That said, it's possible that you agree with that.

Where we might differ is regarding the beaning. For whatever reason, pitchers have been retaliating that way for many years so it's not as if this was an outlier. And to me, a lot depends on how the pitch is thrown. A pitch in the ribs or at the backside is a lot different than one at the noggin. Kelly had his teammate's back, just like many other pitchers will during the course of the season and many others have over time. Until that mode of response totally goes away, I think it's tough to single him out or give him an outsized suspension. If MLB wants to do away with this practice, they should make it clear before the season starts with some kind of rule change or at the least, a statement of policy.

 

[drbretto]

I'm ok with getting upset at the second throw attempt.

You're the batter, and you know you did something a little over then line and you know it's coming. The pitcher buzzes you, gives you a bit of a scare. Ok, message received, player humbled, let's play baseball. There's no need to push it. He had his free shot and missed. Throwing another there is just unnecessary.

 

[Merkle's Boner]

I don't think it's as clear as you are suggesting.

One, Holt was pissed about the spike but probably not pissed enough to want to fight Austin. He probably thought that saying something was sufficient and that Austin might even say something like "my bad" or more likely "hey, wasn't trying to hurt you, you OK?" or something else that showed a little bit of contrition. That Holt chose not to fight him for being douchey in response is also not remarkable.

So to me, Holt not doing the dirty work was not unexpected. That said, it's possible that you agree with that.

Where we might differ is regarding the beaning. For whatever reason, pitchers have been retaliating that way for many years so it's not as if this was an outlier. And to me, a lot depends on how the pitch is thrown. A pitch in the ribs or at the backside is a lot different than one at the noggin. Kelly had his teammate's back, just like many other pitchers will during the course of the season and many others have over time. Until that mode of response totally goes away, I think it's tough to single him out or give him an outsized suspension. If MLB wants to do away with this practice, they should make it clear before the season starts with some kind of rule change or at the least, a statement of policy.

I agree with this and think that if the benches and bullpens hadn't emptied, the issue would have died right there.

 

[DanoooME]

I guess it’s an unwritten rule, but the one thing that strikes me as the absolute silliest is that both dugouts, and especially both bullpens, feel the need to empty out onto the field whenever something like this happens. With all the changes to the game they always discuss, for the life of me I can’t figure out why baseball allows this to happen. Why not just suspend anyone who leaves the dugout or the bullpen, like the NBA does? So Brock Holt gets into a shoving match with a guy, and suddenly everyone is sprinting in from the bullpen? So of course KELLY has to retaliate now. It’s just babyish. Plus now there is the risk that somebody who has no right being on the field in the first place is gonna get injured in the melee.

It would make sense to have an NHL-style automatic ejection for leaving your position and/or the bench, but are they really going to throw everyone out of the game if both benches and bullpens clear? It would probably take a significant suspension on top of that (like 20 games or so) to really give it teeth and prevent things like this from happening.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

He got drilled in the ribs, not at the head. And a guy with about 60 MLB games under his belt, less than 1/2 of a season, charges and starts a bench-clearer in which theoretically a teammate like Stanton or Judge could be hurt.

Not sure how they handle chemistry and camaraderie in a clubhouse, but certainly if I'm Yankee management after last night, I'm thinking if not telling Austin, hey, kid. Don't do that again. We don't need a guy who makes 30 times your salary getting his Achilles stepped on or separating a shoulder in a pigpile because you want to be a hard man.

 

[dwainw]

I'm ok with getting upset at the second throw attempt.

You're the batter, and you know you did something a little over then line and you know it's coming. The pitcher buzzes you, gives you a bit of a scare. Ok, message received, player humbled, let's play baseball. There's no need to push it. He had his free shot and missed. Throwing another there is just unnecessary.

This brings to mind Tampa Bay's obsession with hitting Brian Daubach in the early 2000's after a Pedro beaning. That beanbrawl "rivalry" got out of hand because the Devil Rays couldn't let it go. Point being, I think there does have to be a limit on the number of times you should attempt to hit a guy in retaliation.

I don't think it's as clear as you are suggesting.

One, Holt was pissed about the spike but probably not pissed enough to want to fight Austin. He probably thought that saying something was sufficient and that Austin might even say something like "my bad" or more likely "hey, wasn't trying to hurt you, you OK?" or something else that showed a little bit of contrition. That Holt chose not to fight him for being douchey in response is also not remarkable.

So to me, Holt not doing the dirty work was not unexpected. That said, it's possible that you agree with that.

Maybe it's just me, but I was kind of irritated by some of the Red Sox's passiveness through all of it, starting with Holt. I don't want to see punches thrown (mostly because of injury risk, but also because it's stupid), but I felt like he should have done more to actively calm the situation and/or stand up for Kelly, who was standing up for him. He and a few others (notably Mookie) were a bit too light-hearted about the situation. When your teammates are literally fighting for you (whether you agree with it or not), I think you should be more active to intervene on their behalf. As others have mentioned, Aaron Judge impressed me the most in that regard.

 

[SirPsychoSquints]

I guess it’s an unwritten rule, but the one thing that strikes me as the absolute silliest is that both dugouts, and especially both bullpens, feel the need to empty out onto the field whenever something like this happens. With all the changes to the game they always discuss, for the life of me I can’t figure out why baseball allows this to happen. Why not just suspend anyone who leaves the dugout or the bullpen, like the NBA does? So Brock Holt gets into a shoving match with a guy, and suddenly everyone is sprinting in from the bullpen? So of course KELLY has to retaliate now. It’s just babyish. Plus now there is the risk that somebody who has no right being on the field in the first place is gonna get injured in the melee.

I think a big problem with a rule like this is that whatever team is on defense would automatically have a 9 on 1 (or 2 or 3 or 4) advantage in such a situation. However, maybe that would deter any batter from starting anything. However, maybe that would encourage pitchers to hit people.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Too many of y'all let Yankee fans be your friends.

Exactly. That’s unwritten rule No. 1. Don’t let this happen. Be more selective people.

 

[lexrageorge]

One of the funniest "unwritten rule violations" I remember was Tim McCarver going apoplectic over the fact that Jason Varitek didn't take his mask all the way off when he put his glove in ARod's face; McCarver was whining about that for years afterwards.

I think a big problem with a rule like this is that whatever team is on defense would automatically have a 9 on 1 (or 2 or 3 or 4) advantage in such a situation. However, maybe that would deter any batter from starting anything. However, maybe that would encourage pitchers to hit people.

I was going to make a similar point; baseball is the one sport where the team on offense is outnumbered by at least 2 to 1. But I agree it is comedy to see both bullpens empty over two players having words.

This brings to mind Tampa Bay's obsession with hitting Brian Daubach in the early 2000's after a Pedro beaning. That beanbrawl "rivalry" got out of hand because the Devil Rays couldn't let it go. Point being, I think there does have to be a limit on the number of times you should attempt to hit a guy in retaliation.

Part of the problem was there was one asshole Rays player (I can't recall who) that just couldn't get over the fact that Daubach was briefly a replacement player several years prior.

He got drilled in the ribs, not at the head. And a guy with about 60 MLB games under his belt, less than 1/2 of a season, charges and starts a bench-clearer in which theoretically a teammate like Stanton or Judge could be hurt.

Not sure how they handle chemistry and camaraderie in a clubhouse, but certainly if I'm Yankee management after last night, I'm thinking if not telling Austin, hey, kid. Don't do that again. We don't need a guy who makes 30 times your salary getting his Achilles stepped on or separating a shoulder in a pigpile because you want to be a hard man.

I get your point, but I can understand the batter being really upset as well. Nomar was never the same player after he got hit in the wrist by a Bruce Kison coached pitcher in Baltimore. Judge's future earnings isn't really Austin's problem.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

There's got to be a better way to handle these situations.

Yeah, when the MLB starts handing out severe suspensions this all goes away.

 

[Ale Xander]

There are unwritten rules that should be "illegal" (intent to injure, head-hunting, reckless base running/sliding, having more than one MFY fan friend) and there are unwritten rules that are just stupid (bunting, stealing, stealing signs)

 

[Kun Aguero]

having one MFY fan friend

FTFY. Having "more than one" is OK if you're having Schaefer, but not a Yankee fan friend.

 

[DJnVa]

Pedro says Kelly handled it perfectly, but Austin should have been hit his previous AB.

God I love Pedro.

FWIW, Chipper Jones on twitter said Austin should have no beef.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I don't think it's as clear as you are suggesting.

One, Holt was pissed about the spike but probably not pissed enough to want to fight Austin. He probably thought that saying something was sufficient and that Austin might even say something like "my bad" or more likely "hey, wasn't trying to hurt you, you OK?" or something else that showed a little bit of contrition. That Holt chose not to fight him for being douchey in response is also not remarkable.

So to me, Holt not doing the dirty work was not unexpected. That said, it's possible that you agree with that.

I do. If Holt wasn't upset enough to make it a thing immediately, he doesn't have to fight. I'm not advocating that he should have fought Austin right then and there. Just that if there's dirty work to do and Austin absolutely must be retaliated against, for the honor of the team or Holt or whatever macho bullshit they want to come up with, then Holt should be the one to do it.

Where we might differ is regarding the beaning. For whatever reason, pitchers have been retaliating that way for many years so it's not as if this was an outlier. And to me, a lot depends on how the pitch is thrown. A pitch in the ribs or at the backside is a lot different than one at the noggin. Kelly had his teammate's back, just like many other pitchers will during the course of the season and many others have over time. Until that mode of response totally goes away, I think it's tough to single him out or give him an outsized suspension. If MLB wants to do away with this practice, they should make it clear before the season starts with some kind of rule change or at the least, a statement of policy.

I don't care what has been done in the past or that this isn't an outlier in the world of baseball. It's still beyond stupid and really should have no place in the game. And I don't think there needs to be a statement of policy. Throwing at players and charging the mound is already against the rules. Players already get ejected and suspended for it. Easy enough to say this is enough and escalate the punishments starting with what happened yesterday. Don't even have to single Kelly (or Austin) out. There was another brawl yesterday in Colorado between the Rockies and Padres...a worse one IMO. One that stemmed from a couple days worth of exchanging HBPs. Slap those two teams with some big fines and suspensions too.

Have to start somewhere, might as well be now as any other time.

 

[brs3]

I think the 'unwritten rules' exist for young hyped up players like Tyler Austin. His slide into Brock Holt wasn't great. Everybody knows sliding cleat up into a guy trying to make a double play is inappropriate, to the point MLB has spoken on it. I forget who was involved, but an inning or two later there was a bang bang play at second base, and the players sort of collapsed on each other. Both players seemed to acknowledge each other and probably said 'my bad' or checked that the other guy was fine. On TV it's when you see the players pat each other on the back or help each other up. When Austin slid in, he popped up right away, made no motion of apology, and stared at Brock Holt, slightly bewildered. Maybe he didn't realize what he did? Maybe he didn't care? Holt seemed surprised that he didn't apologize and probably, rightfully, said WTF?

The emptying of the bullpens and benches does need to stop. I think CC might be suspended for being on the field while on the DL, and he should be. I'd be fine with fining/suspending everyone who leaves the dugout/bullpen. Let the guys on the field fight it out, why does a bench coach with bad knees need to get involved?

At the same time, unwritten rules are crap, because my thought is the unwritten rule of not admiring home runs is lame, and creates heroes and villains (Manny Ramirez post season admiration - so good, Carlos Gomes admiring a homer in spring training - so bad)...but the rule of Joe Kelly retaliating is fine.. but then my thought is if you're retaliating, you do it with your first pitch, and not give the impression the at bat will be a normal one. This entire paragraph summarizes why unwritten rules are both hilariously awesome and entirely idiotic.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

I think the 'unwritten rules' exist for young hyped up players like Tyler Austin. His slide into Brock Holt wasn't great. Everybody knows sliding cleat up into a guy trying to make a double play is inappropriate, to the point MLB has spoken on it. I forget who was involved, but an inning or two later there was a bang bang play at second base, and the players sort of collapsed on each other. Both players seemed to acknowledge each other and probably said 'my bad' or checked that the other guy was fine. On TV it's when you see the players pat each other on the back or help each other up. When Austin slid in, he popped up right away, made no motion of apology, and stared at Brock Holt, slightly bewildered. Maybe he didn't realize what he did? Maybe he didn't care? Holt seemed surprised that he didn't apologize and probably, rightfully, said WTF?

The emptying of the bullpens and benches does need to stop. I think CC might be suspended for being on the field while on the DL, and he should be. I'd be fine with fining/suspending everyone who leaves the dugout/bullpen. Let the guys on the field fight it out, why does a bench coach with bad knees need to get involved?

At the same time, unwritten rules are crap, because my thought is the unwritten rule of not admiring home runs is lame, and creates heroes and villains (Manny Ramirez post season admiration - so good, Carlos Gomes admiring a homer in spring training - so bad)...but the rule of Joe Kelly retaliating is fine.. but then my thought is if you're retaliating, you do it with your first pitch, and not give the impression the at bat will be a normal one. This entire paragraph summarizes why unwritten rules are both hilariously awesome and entirely idiotic.

Much confusion and annoyance is created when unwritten rules are combined with vaguely enforced written rules. This is MLB's version of the catch rule. Spikes up is bad but not immediately toss-worthy. Throwing at a batter is bad but not immediately toss-worthy unless it's determined by a subjective third party that it was intentional, or if it occurs after the subjective third party has determined that both teams should be warned for the vaguely bad actions of one.

I suggested in the game thread that spikes up should be explicitly illegal and result in immediate ejection a la a red card, but of course you're still requiring the input of the subjective third party, who might be having a bad day or dislike a particular player for past interactions or simply be a grumpy old bastard.

The only real remedy is for the Red Sox not to allow any baserunners, and not allow any contact just to be safe and keep them off the base paths.

 

[Harry Hooper]

I do. If Holt wasn't upset enough to make it a thing immediately, he doesn't have to fight. I'm not advocating that he should have fought Austin right then and there. Just that if there's dirty work to do and Austin absolutely must be retaliated against, for the honor of the team or Holt or whatever macho bullshit they want to come up with, then Holt should be the one to do it.

That's not really fair to Holt. The team is already down a SS. If Holt starts a fight there, that would be putting himself ahead of the team.

Possibly the worst thing last night was Nevin charging back onto the field after everything had calmed down and the game was about to resume. The umps were way too indulgent with him for about 10 minutes in the cold. They should have had him removed instantly rather than standing there arguing with him.

 

[InsideTheParker]

I was very impressed by the way Aaron Judge handled himself on the field and when he was interviewed after the game. I have a new found respect for the man.

I thought he was being helpful also, but then I saw a close-up photo of him having Kelly in a head-lock. That was helpful exactly, how?

 

[Ale Xander]

I thought he was being helpful also, but then I saw a close-up photo of him having Kelly in a head-lock. That was helpful exactly, how?

Wanted to make sure his head stayed on, and didn't release the machine gun inside.

 

[Jerry’s Curl]

I thought he was being helpful also, but then I saw a close-up photo of him having Kelly in a head-lock. That was helpful exactly, how?

Missed that and that is not helpful.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

That's not really fair to Holt. The team is already down a SS. If Holt starts a fight there, that would be putting himself ahead of the team.

And in a game in which the starter lasted an inning and the bullpen was going to be stretched, it was a good idea for Kelly to throw at the second batter he faced and get himself ejected? All of this nonsense is players putting themselves ahead of the team.

 

[Bergs]

I don't think it's as clear as you are suggesting.

One, Holt was pissed about the spike but probably not pissed enough to want to fight Austin. He probably thought that saying something was sufficient and that Austin might even say something like "my bad" or more likely "hey, wasn't trying to hurt you, you OK?" or something else that showed a little bit of contrition. That Holt chose not to fight him for being douchey in response is also not remarkable.

So to me, Holt not doing the dirty work was not unexpected. That said, it's possible that you agree with that.

Where we might differ is regarding the beaning. For whatever reason, pitchers have been retaliating that way for many years so it's not as if this was an outlier. And to me, a lot depends on how the pitch is thrown. A pitch in the ribs or at the backside is a lot different than one at the noggin. Kelly had his teammate's back, just like many other pitchers will during the course of the season and many others have over time. Until that mode of response totally goes away, I think it's tough to single him out or give him an outsized suspension. If MLB wants to do away with this practice, they should make it clear before the season starts with some kind of rule change or at the least, a statement of policy.

Holt is also a concussion-history fringe MLB player who could literally have his career ended by a right hook...

I do. If Holt wasn't upset enough to make it a thing immediately, he doesn't have to fight. I'm not advocating that he should have fought Austin right then and there. Just that if there's dirty work to do and Austin absolutely must be retaliated against, for the honor of the team or Holt or whatever macho bullshit they want to come up with, then Holt should be the one to do it..

...which is why I vehemently disagree with the above.

Austin chose to take a bullshit slide on a play where there was nothing to be gained by taking out Holt. Austin then chose be an asshole after the slide rather than exhibit any human decency toward a fellow ballplayer he just spiked. Austin then got drilled, chose to be an asshole and start a brawl, and got punched in the head by Joe Kelly for his efforts. This all feels very karma-correct to me

 

[TheoShmeo]

I don't care what has been done in the past or that this isn't an outlier in the world of baseball. It's still beyond stupid and really should have no place in the game. And I don't think there needs to be a statement of policy. Throwing at players and charging the mound is already against the rules. Players already get ejected and suspended for it. Easy enough to say this is enough and escalate the punishments starting with what happened yesterday. Don't even have to single Kelly (or Austin) out. There was another brawl yesterday in Colorado between the Rockies and Padres...a worse one IMO. One that stemmed from a couple days worth of exchanging HBPs. Slap those two teams with some big fines and suspensions too.

Have to start somewhere, might as well be now as any other time.

Even if the pitcher was on the Hated Yankees, I would violently disagree with the bolded part.

It's a fundamental tenet of any system of justice that actors know about the potential consequences of their actions before they act. Regardless of how you view throwing at guys, if the convention in baseball is that pitchers who throw at the ribs get X penalty, giving them X plus 10 out of the blue because your sensibilities are affected is bizarre.

What if Kelly had done that in Game 161 and the Sox were headed to the playoffs? Or after Game 1 of the ALCS? Would you be OK with sending a message and re-writing the punishment code on the fly at that time?

I don't care if it's criminal justice, the NFL, college athletics or MLB, people have the right to know how their actions may be judged before they act. I don't see anything about beaning that is so extraordinary that it warrants a post hoc adjustment to the suspension/penalty regime.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

EXACTLY how I feel about it. If Holt is the one being endangered by a player on the opposing team, let him do the dirty work. If you want to have your teammate's back, grab an opponent during the brawl and make sure no one cheap shots anyone else. Pitchers throwing at hitters for slights (perceived or real) of their teammates is chicken shit, plain and simple. Kelly deserves the biggest suspension of anyone involved last night.

I dunno. I guess it would be interesting to see someone like Tzu Wei Lin get in a fight with Aaron Judge but there's a reason teammates do the dirty work.

 

[BigPapiMPD34]

My take:

The slide:
Austin slid 1) too late, going well past the bag and 2) cleats up, right into Holt's ankle. Holt had the right to bark at him for a relatively dirty slide. What should have happened next is Austin saying "my bad." But instead, he barked back. In my opinion, that's already two strikes on NYY (dirty slide, then refusing to apologize). Thus, he probably deserved to get beaned in the back at this point. Saying "my bad" later in the game probably would have gotten him out of a future HBP. However, he continued to act like a punk.

I didn't find it necessary for the dugouts and bullpens to empty after Holt/Austin barked at each other. Being at the game, it seemed like the NYY bullpen cleared well before the Sox bullpen. In fact, the NYY bullpen catcher was well ahead of everyone else, which seemed odd since he looked like some scrawny 20-year old who had nothing better to do.

The hit by pitch:
I personally don't care if it took two attempts to hit him. The player who deserved to get beaned shouldn't "get away with one" just because the pitcher has poor aim. The other thing I noticed is that the NYY dugout was already running out onto the field before Austin charged the mound. It seemed like he was going to charge anyway, but still, the NYY dugout was clearly nudging him on.

Vazquez probably should have grabbed Austin, but at least he pulled his jersey right before he got to Kelly. Who knows, maybe Kelly told him before the inning to let him charge so he could get a punch in. Nothing crazy happened in the brawl as only Kelly and Austin threw punches. Although, Phil Nevin was acting like a nut case and barking at Cora.

Post-game:
Kelly said the right things in the post game (cold weather, bad aim, ball slipped). Of course we know that is a lie, but he has to lie in order to avoid getting a lengthier suspension and fine.