The Victorino conundrum

drtooth

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I will always relish the GS in game 6 of the ALCS and the contributions he made to the 2013 championship.  That now seems light years away.  Farrell wants to seemingly give every opportunity to be in the everyday lineup but Victorino can't stay on the field ( has playing in 50 of the last 205 games).  With Betts and Castillo the likely future in CF and RF, what do the Sox do with Victorino?  Will he be a problem being the 4th OF'er ?  Do they DL or DFA  him?  What say ye, SoSH?
 

mfried

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drtooth said:
I will always relish the GS in game 6 of the ALCS and the contributions he made to the 2013 championship.  That now seems light years away.  Farrell wants to seemingly give every opportunity to be in the everyday lineup but Victorino can't stay on the field ( has playing in 50 of the last 205 games).  With Betts and Castillo the likely future in CF and RF, what do the Sox do with Victorino?  Will he be a problem being the 4th OF'er ?  Do they DL or DFA  him?  What say ye, SoSH?
The Victorino who played in his last few games is still probably our best right fielder (defense+offense) vs. lefty pitchers, esp. in Fenway Park.  His utility goes down in other parks both defensively and offensively.  All in all, when he's not hurt, he's worth keeping as part of a rotation involving Castillo and Betts.  He should be placed on a fairly short DL leash, and Bradley should be brought up when Vic is on the DL.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Farrell made a comment in his Pre-game the other day when Vic was scratched to the effect of "you come to the park expecting to have 25 men available and it's disappointing when you don't."

Farrell's tone sounded as though he was sick and tired of the runaround with Vic. It almost sounded to me that the Vic call was made by powers higher than the managerial chair. That's the sense I took from his words.
 

aron7awol

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Ignoring the calf injury and talking about a healthy Victorino, I see the ideal fit for him on this roster in a platoon role with Sandoval (Hanley as the middle-man) along with giving the regular OF days off:
 
Regular lineup vs. LHP
LF Castillo
CF Betts
RF Victorino
3B Hanley
BN Sandoval
 
Sprinkle in some starts against RHP to give Hanley, Betts, Castillo days off and you end up with:
LF Hanley 60% Castillo 40%
CF Betts 90% Castillo 10%
RF Castillo 40% Victorino 60%
3B Sandoval (RHP) 70% Hanley (LHP) 30%
 
Total
Hanley 90%
Betts 90%
Castillo 90%
Sandoval 70%
Victorino 60%
 
This maximizes Sandoval and Victorino, while giving guys appropriate amounts of rest and spreading the PT around fairly well.  Hanley may not even be a defensive downgrade going from LF to 3B, and his bat vs. LHP as a 3B is MVP caliber.  The only guy who may be upset is Sandoval, but you can bump him to 80% and Victorino down to 50% if you feel it's prudent.
 

mfried

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aron7awol said:
Ignoring the calf injury and talking about a healthy Victorino, I see the ideal fit for him on this roster in a platoon role with Sandoval (Hanley as the middle-man) along with giving the regular OF days off:
 
Regular lineup vs. LHP
LF Castillo
CF Betts
RF Victorino
3B Hanley
BN Sandoval
 
Sprinkle in some starts against RHP to give Hanley, Betts, Castillo days off and you end up with:
LF Hanley 60% Castillo 40%
CF Betts 90% Castillo 10%
RF Castillo 40% Victorino 60%
3B Sandoval (RHP) 70% Hanley (LHP) 30%
 
Total
Hanley 90%
Betts 90%
Castillo 90%
Sandoval 70%
Victorino 60%
 
This maximizes Sandoval and Victorino, while giving guys appropriate amounts of rest and spreading the PT around fairly well.  Hanley may not even be a defensive downgrade going from LF to 3B, and his bat vs. LHP as a 3B is MVP caliber.  The only guy who may be upset is Sandoval, but you can bump him to 80% and Victorino down to 50% if you feel it's prudent.
Hanley on 3rd: what prevents every opponent from bunting his way?
 

In my lifetime

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It was 2 months ago that I was bashed for being Chicken Little when I suggested that the hamstring tightness Victorino experienced in spring training was an extremely bad sign.  I think people, even those involved professionally in sports, minimize the potential severity of pulled muscles especially hamstring pulls and tears.  In certain cases, including oblique muscles for baseball players and hamstrings for almost any athlete, these injuries can be devastating. Hamstring injuries especially can be a recurring problem which an athlete feels fine for weeks or months and then re-injures the hamstring.   You never get to choose your injuries, but hamstrings are a problem.  Note --- the calf injury obviously is a different injury although the hamstring problems can contribute to other injuries. 
 

aron7awol

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With Hanley's defense in LF as bad as it is, he's either a DH or he's a below average fielder somewhere (other than maybe 1B?), so you might as well use him where he's needed to maximize the rest of the lineup, keep the 4th OF fresh, and get guys appropriate rest while still managing egos.
 

trekfan55

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Coachster said:
Bradley can't come back anyway. He was just optioned a couple days ago.
In case of a DL, the rule is waived. So Bradley could come back.

For me, the issue is giving Nava his last possible shot. Bradley as a 4th OF could get enough playing time, sharing those duties with Nava he would not.

Edit: Typed too slow on my Ipad
 

Coachster

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trekfan55 said:
In case of a DL, the rule is waived. So Bradley could come back.

For me, the issue is giving Nava his last possible shot. Bradley as a 4th OF could get enough playing time, sharing those duties with Nava he would not.
Sorry. My bad. I misunderstood the rule.

So, does this mean Brock Holt becomes the primary defensive replacement outfielder?
 

mauf

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Coachster said:
Sorry. My bad. I misunderstood the rule.

So, does this mean Brock Holt becomes the primary defensive replacement outfielder?
I think it means Holt is an everyday player for the foreseeable future (though not at a fixed position), and Bianchi is filling the utility IF role.

I don't think JBJ needing regular ABs is a factor in the decision. Sadly, his star has dimmed to the point where you wouldn't worry about him sitting on the bench if that was best for the club. They just don't need an OF who isn't as good at Holt.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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maufman said:
I think it means Holt is an everyday player for the foreseeable future (though not at a fixed position), and Bianchi is filling the utility IF role.
I don't think JBJ needing regular ABs is a factor in the decision. Sadly, his star has dimmed to the point where you wouldn't worry about him sitting on the bench if that was best for the club. They just don't need an OF who isn't as good at Holt.
I couldnt possible overstate how much I disagree with this. I think there's a better than 50% chance Bradley's the starting CF next year. His job this year is to re-establish his hitting strike at Pawtucket. He can't do that sitting on the bench in Boston.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
I couldnt possible overstate how much I disagree with this. I think there's a better than 50% chance Bradley's the starting CF next year. His job this year is to re-establish his hitting strike at Pawtucket. He can't do that sitting on the bench in Boston.
I think there's a better than 50% he's A starting CF next year, just not in Boston. So yes, he needs to go back down, play every day and rake in AAA so that his trade value goes back up.
 

Rasputin

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maufman said:
Sadly, his star has dimmed to the point where you wouldn't worry about him sitting on the bench if that was best for the club. 
 
I don't think that's remotely true.
 

glennhoffmania

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I think this is very simple now.  When Victorino gets over his latest ouchy they sit him down and tell him he's now the fourth OF.  Conundrum solved.
 

rembrat

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glennhoffmania said:
I think this is very simple now.  When Victorino gets over his latest ouchy they sit him down and tell him he's now the fourth OF.  Conundrum solved.
 
This only happens if Rusney runs away with the position. If he struggles, we're back to playing musical chairs with RF.
 

glennhoffmania

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Victorino clearly can't play on a daily basis and stay healthy.  I don't think performance is even an issue to consider at this point.  
 

genoasalami

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Victorino is a walking medical experiment - How do you get hurt so often running around a bit - throwing a ball on occasion and swinging a boat 20 times a game? Hockey players are not impressed.
 

MikeM

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
I think there's a better than 50% he's A starting CF next year, just not in Boston. So yes, he needs to go back down, play every day and rake in AAA so that his trade value goes back up.
 
This. 
 
Victorino dilemma aside (the "rotational" talk is kinda silly imo. Unless we potentially start thinking about sending Betts down, Vic is either going to be the 4th OF'er or needs to be released), i'll be fairly shocked to see Bradley make it through the trade deadline. Probably the first player Ben puts on the table when talking deals. 
 
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genoasalami said:
Victorino is a walking medical experiment - How do you get hurt so often running around a bit - throwing a ball on occasion and swinging a boat 20 times a game? Hockey players are not impressed.
Well, I mean...the boat part has to be pretty tough on the back.
 

radsoxfan

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genoasalami said:
Victorino is a walking medical experiment - How do you get hurt so often running around a bit - throwing a ball on occasion and swinging a boat 20 times a game? Hockey players are not impressed.
 
 
We don't really need an experiment on this issue….It's well established that a significant risk factor for a muscle injury is a previous strain of that muscle.  Just an unfortunate positive feedback cycle. 
 
Shane probably has a lot of scar tissue and abnormal muscle thats being asked to function at a level it's not capable of anymore.  Hopefully he still can provide some value in a more limited role this season, but it seems he is nearing the point of no return, at least as far as high level professional athletics goes. 
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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genoasalami said:
Victorino is a walking medical experiment - How do you get hurt so often running around a bit - throwing a ball on occasion and swinging a boat 20 times a game? Hockey players are not impressed.
 
You might want to pay attention a little more. "running around a bit" does not accurately describe what an outfielder does during a game. Between backing up plays and tracking down balls hit to his area of the field, he does quite a bit of running. He also is often going from standing to a full on sprint multiple times a day, and that kind of running is a good way to cause injuries or re-inflame tissue. Then add in the fact that he tends to crash into walls, dive and slide a lot and we can move on to his base running which also tends to be fairly intense on his body. Is he injury prone? Absolutely. Is it a mystery that he gets hurt as often as he does? Not even a little bit.
 
Also, if you think he's only swinging a bat 10-20 times in a day you probably haven't played baseball beyond a little league level. He's very likely swinging the bat 10-20 times during the course of a game just at the plate, When you consider warm up swings in the on deck circle and add in batting practice and time in the cage the number climbs quickly. It amuses me when people describe baseball as a sport that doesn't require a lot of physical activity. Players move on every play and have to endure the stop and go for 3-4 hours around 6 times a week. There's a reason they call the season a grind. It takes an incredible level of physical fitness to be able to endure that, and when a guy like Victorino (who has spent his career always pushing himself to 100%, crashing into walls, diving and sliding all over the place) gets into his mid-30's it should surprise no one that he's breaking down and just can't do it anymore.
 
I know the joke is that baseball players aren't tough, but when I see that posted I can't help but wonder if the person posting it doesn't really understand the game of baseball.
 

joe dokes

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Other than the "I'm crapping my pants because I'ma scared that Farrell's gonna play him even if he sucks" crowd, wasn't "this will sort itself out by mid-May" the prevailing consensus around here in Mid-March?
 
 
HomeRunBaker said:
Farrell made a comment in his Pre-game the other day when Vic was scratched to the effect of "you come to the park expecting to have 25 men available and it's disappointing when you don't."

Farrell's tone sounded as though he was sick and tired of the runaround with Vic. It almost sounded to me that the Vic call was made by powers higher than the managerial chair. That's the sense I took from his words.
 
I think "runaround" is way too loaded here. So is "sick and tired."  I'm sure its frustrating for all involved, especially when his performance is pretty good in those too-rare times he can actually play.
Farrell likes him and is disappointed that he can't play. And I think Victorino did everything he could to play, knows that another DL trip is another nail in his professional coffin, and tried to put it off as long as he could. I think when Farrell said "disappointed" that's what he meant. As for the higher powers....I dont think Farrelll has any power other than to make suggestions.
 

AB in DC

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I'm not sure this is really a conundrum any more.  If he's healthy, he should play.  If not, he should stay on the DL.  This is not an even an issue unless Betts, Castillo, and Ortiz start bashing the ball again; otherwise, give them each a game or two off each week (sitting Ortiz against LHPs for example) until they show more consistency
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
Well, I mean...the boat part has to be pretty tough on the back.
Would account for his poor batting average. Clearly needs to swing a lighter boat.
 

soxhop411

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Tim Britton ‏@TimBritton 18m18 minutes ago
Jeff Bianchi cleared waivers but has elected free agency.
 

AB in DC

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If/when Victorino comes back, what about putting him in LF for a few games?  Should be less wear-and-tear on his legs, especially at Fenway.