The WNBA: Thread II

amh03

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What a fun game that was…sure hope more WNBA finds its way to Boston!!

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Really wish I could have brought my regular camera into the Garden!)
 
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amh03

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Haha! I saw the first pic resolution and scrolled back to double check the username.
Yea…the Garden doesn’t allow cameras w detachable lenses, so I borrowed a friend’s point & shoot. Definitely not my thing…too small, ISO not as forgiving, lens lag…argh…if anyone knows how one can bring a better camera into these venues, let me know. I have September tickets to Sun/Sky in Connecticut and would really love to bring my regular camera.
 

DJnVa

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Compared to her getting leveled vs Chicago by a seriously dirty play and nobody helping her up, this looks like an absolute nothing.
I wasn't claiming it was violent, but it's clear she went out of her way to bump her. It's funny and petty.
 

BaseballJones

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My wife was at TD Garden on Tuesday. Sat right behind Jrue Holiday and his family. His little girl said to my wife, "I like your shoes." "Oh, you like sparkles?" "Yeah."

So cute!

She said it was an absolutely electric environment and a total blast. Glad she made the trip up.
 

amh03

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My wife was at TD Garden on Tuesday. Sat right behind Jrue Holiday and his family. His little girl said to my wife, "I like your shoes." "Oh, you like sparkles?" "Yeah."

So cute!

She said it was an absolutely electric environment and a total blast. Glad she made the trip up.
It was great that Holiday & his family were there!! Tatum was there too, though I didn’t see him during the game…just posts w Thomas and Holiday (the Olympians) afterwards.

It won’t be high quality, but I might have a pic w your wife in it, as I did zoom in over to where Holiday was sitting (I was in Loge 21/row 11). Send me an email and I’ll send it off to you, if you’d like, @BaseballJones.
 

LA_33

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I know people here are more Sun/EC focused for the W, but Aces/Lynx yesterday was a great game, and Minnesota continues to stay in the top-4 mix, despite not having a strong MVP candidate like the Liberty, Aces (A’ja is still the best player in the W, imo), and Sun (Thomas is a fascinatingly unique MVP-level star I can never quite pin down an NBA comp for).

Collier is the best wing in the league right now, though, and the depth and 5-out roster construction the Lynx have around her is lots of fun.
 

BaseballJones

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Collier is definitely an MVP candidate. She won't win, but she's a top 4 player in the WNBA right now.
 

reggiecleveland

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It was an ill timed to continue complaining after the game. They had a sellout an incredible event, but all the headlines are about her complaints. Her comments are thinly veiled complaints about Caitlin Clark and the Fever being on national TV more than her team.

The WNBA players seem determined to blow this surge. While ML Carr recalls NBA players cashing their 'Larry and Magic' cheques when licensing money was shared and then saying how big they hoped the "Michael" cheques were going to be WNBA players resent their cash cow. Pat Riley once joked at the height of the Lakers Celtic rivalry he told his players not to fight back against the Celtics "except Larry I have plans for the money he is making us all." Even when having an unprecedented event first and foremost Carrington complains. Oscar Robinson, Curt Flood, Ted Lindsay, never got the cash in on the progrerss they made. Canadace Parker, Lisa Liselie, et al will be eternally underpaid and under appreciated, A'ja Wilson is the Kareem or Dr J, who for reasons of chance almost inexplicably were not the face of basketball's popularity explosion.

Perhaps the biggest problem is while teams, veteran players, David Stern, controlled the narrative during the NBA boom, today;s media allows every disgruntled players to be heard. NBA is lucky Rick Barry, Norm Nixon, didn't have twitter
 

amh03

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Anyone have any insight on why Mabrey was available for the Sun? She’s so good!!
 

InstaFace

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BaseballJones

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Might've had something to do with this:

View: https://twitter.com/WNBARookieWatch/status/1827131554813845761



Between that hit and the gratuitous, non-basketball flagrant on Caitlin Clark back in June, Chennedy Carter has got a lot of chatter calling for her to be suspended. That's 4 flagrants for her this season.
She’s always kind of been known for that.

Mabrey was a huge pickup for the Sun but I still don’t think they’ll have enough to win it all, and their window is juuuuust about closed.
 

OCST

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Got Aces-Sky on while I'm working.

One thing I've noticed in my first year of closely following this league - the small league allows a fan to know the players and stories. It's my 3rd or 4th time watching these teams. Not only do I know the players and their styles by now, I also know the subplots - like Hamby's discrimination case against the Aces, Carter's George The Animal Steele impersonations, Wilson the queen vs Reese her protege, etc etc.

Reminds me of following the Sox in the 12-team AL as a kid, or UConn hoops in the classic Big East, when players stayed for four years - and it's a plus, as far as my enjoyment goes. Familiarity breeds repeat viewing.

In today's 30-32 team pro leagues, even a committed fan doesn't know the fringe teams that well and it's a lot more anonymous. As a neutral, I'm less likely to watch a game involving one team I don't know well, and vanishingly unlikely to watch a game between two teams I don't know at all.
 

OCST

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Wow, what a finish. Chicago closes a 10-point deficit in the last two minutes to draw even, but Wilson hits a buzzer beater - didn't see who it was but someone set a brick-wall screen on Reese to spring Wilson for the layup.
 

Cellar-Door

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BaseballJones

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She’s the worst shooter for a really good player that I’ve ever seen. It’s not that she’s 39% from 15 feet. She’s like 39% from point blank range. And she’s 6’3” tall. She’s not outsized in there. She just can’t shoot at all.

But man can she rebound. And she doesn’t just rebound her own misses. She eats off the glass.
 

Cellar-Door

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Drummond shot over 60% as a rookie, and has never shot under 50% from 2. Reese is currently shooting about 39% from 2.

It's really something else. Maybe Jayson Williams?
He can dunk, I think it's a good comp, elite rebounders but basically nonexistent offensive skill sets, somewhat overrated defenders based on blocks
 

OCST

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Reese could/should have done better on Wilson’s layup at the buzzer, but Wilson was held to 29% for the game (8 for 28) and Reese was a big part of that.
 

Eastchop

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Napheesa Collier is on an absolute heater. A’ja seems to have it locked up, but she has to be a top MVP contender- I’d have her second behind Wilson easily ahead of the rest. She’s made MIN must watch for me.
 

amh03

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Wow, what a finish. Chicago closes a 10-point deficit in the last two minutes to draw even, but Wilson hits a buzzer beater - didn't see who it was but someone set a brick-wall screen on Reese to spring Wilson for the layup.
It was Plum who had the screen on Reese taking her out of the play to do anything. Well done by the Aces.
 

reggiecleveland

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It was Plum who had the screen on Reese taking her out of the play to do anything. Well done by the Aces.
Angel's job is to stay attached to A'ja. She turned her back, ball watched and was surprised by the pick. It is better to turn your back on the ball, I mean it's an OOB play, you know where it it and stay with your check. A big can't get picked off. She needed to body A'ja over or under the screen and contest the lob. That's bad d. If she plays good D Plum probably gets the ball for a tough turn around. Plusm's defender was fooled into thinking she was going to the coorner, so didn't bump the pick, good play design, but still unforgivable for Angel to be unaware and get drilled.

She is a weird player. Abysmal touch. Also pretty bad defensive instincts. Other pure rebounders Rodman, Larry Smith, Silas, etc were all good, instinctive defenders too.
 
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Jimbodandy

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Angel's job is to stay attached to A'ja. She turned her back, ball watched and was surprised by the pick. It is better to turn your back on the ball, I mean it's an OOB play, you know where it it and stay with your check. A big can't get picked off. She needed to body A'ja over or under the screen and contest the lob. That's bad d. If she plays good D Plum probably gets the ball for a tough turn around. Plusm's defender was fooled into thinking she was going to the coorner, so didn't bump the pick, good play design, but still unforgivable for Angel to be unaware and get drilled.

She is a weird player. Abysmal touch. Also pretty bad defensive instincts. Other pure rebounders Rodman, Larry Smith, Silas, etc were all good, instinctive defenders too.
Her defense on that play was Doncician. It's one thing to space out and allow yourself to get backscreened by a smurf, but she just gave up and let the switch smurf try to defend that shot. Gotta try to get back into that play.
 

reggiecleveland

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If the Fever made half the layups CC set them up for today she has 12+ assists. But, man she has to stop turning the ball over. She seems to feel she has to create offence every time she touches the ball. Thgey said to day she is the player who scores the most points without an assists in the WNBA. The announcers saw this as a positive since she was creating almost of her own points and leading the league in assists, but to me it is also a product of her feast or famine approach.
But ROY should not be close

https://x.com/BricksCenter/status/1828144351375175684
 

BaseballJones

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Clark and Reese are like two of the most opposite players I’ve ever seen or that you could ever conceive of.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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So Clark set the record for most 3's in a season by a rookie. Front page on ESPN.com. Cool moment, but it also shows why some players are upset at the coverage she is getting. She broke Rhyne Howard's record set 2 years ago. Looking at a few google search pages, the only website I could find that had an article on this was something from a site called on3.com. ClutchSports.com and Swishappeal.com (a site devoted to WNBA) mentioned she was the fasted to 100 3's. I understand the WNBA's popularity is bigger now that it was even 2 years ago, but I just thought the coverage of these 2 events to be interesting. For those that aren't aware, Howard was also a #1 pick in the draft, so it isn't like she didn't have hype coming into the league.

I also, of course, could be missing some articles about Howard's accomplishment.
 

GreyisGone

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So Clark set the record for most 3's in a season by a rookie. Front page on ESPN.com. Cool moment, but it also shows why some players are upset at the coverage she is getting. She broke Rhyne Howard's record set 2 years ago. Looking at a few google search pages, the only website I could find that had an article on this was something from a site called on3.com. ClutchSports.com and Swishappeal.com (a site devoted to WNBA) mentioned she was the fasted to 100 3's. I understand the WNBA's popularity is bigger now that it was even 2 years ago, but I just thought the coverage of these 2 events to be interesting. For those that aren't aware, Howard was also a #1 pick in the draft, so it isn't like she didn't have hype coming into the league.

I also, of course, could be missing some articles about Howard's accomplishment.
Ratings are up 400% in two years and attendance is up 150% in one year. There’s no doubt it’s driven by Clark. Why would anyone expect there wouldn’t be a heck of a lot more articles about easily the most popular player in WNBA history? Howard didn’t have hype because no one in the WNBA had hype until Clark showed up.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Ratings are up 400% in two years and attendance is up 150% in one year. There’s no doubt it’s driven by Clark. Why would anyone expect there wouldn’t be a heck of a lot more articles about easily the most popular player in WNBA history? Howard didn’t have hype because no one in the WNBA had hype until Clark showed up.
I understand that, but I also think it is understandable for some players to hold the coverage clark gets it against her.
 

luckiestman

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I’m sure some musicians get mad about Swift coverage but the people want what they want
 

riboflav

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ESPN has an article up today showing that Reese is still the best rookie though Clark has been making up ground of late. It’s perhaps a good case of how limited advanced metrics are for basketball or at least the ones used and interpreted by ESPN.
 

amh03

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ESPN has an article up today showing that Reese is still the best rookie though Clark has been making up ground of late. It’s perhaps a good case of how limited advanced metrics are for basketball or at least the ones used and interpreted by ESPN.
Thought it might be helpful to share the methodology behind ESPN’s rankings -
As always, we'll be ranking the first-year phenoms based on their total consensus wins added, using an average of the following advanced value metrics: Basketball-Reference's win shares (WS), estimated wins added from player efficiency rating(PER) and wins generated via estimated RAPTOR, a plus/minus-style stat that accounts for both a player's individual production and her effect on her team's net rating during a game.

Since each metric has its own points of emphasis -- PER likes volume scoring and WS likes efficiency, while RAPTOR prizes on-court impact -- a blend of the three should give us a holistic view of which players have been producing the most so far this season.

And to see what each player has been good (or bad) at, we'll also list her 0-100 percentile ratings relative to the league in scoring (based on points per 100 possessions), true shooting percentage, passing (based on assist rate), rebounding rate and defensive impact (based on both RAPTOR and defensive rating).
 

scottyno

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ESPN has an article up today showing that Reese is still the best rookie though Clark has been making up ground of late. It’s perhaps a good case of how limited advanced metrics are for basketball or at least the ones used and interpreted by ESPN.
Reese also probably kind of breaks advanced metrics by getting so many offensive rebounds simply because she gets her own rebounds because she can't shoot
 

amh03

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Reese definitely falls short and goes after her own misses, but stats are always good (especially in SoSH) -
Critics will point to Reese's poor finishing, and claim she's padding her stats by recovering her own misses. To be sure, she needs to be better than 47.5% in the restricted area, but only 44 of her 135 offensive rebounds (33%) have come in that fashion. Reese creates far more second chances by getting to balls that no one else would have gotten to, or, in some instances, even tried to get.
Article
 

reggiecleveland

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She has by far the fewest assists of any of the top offensive rebounders, which is one of the best times to find somebody for an open three. In fact it is really difficult to find a clip of her getting and o-board where she doesn't shoot it. It seems pretty clear getting her double double is her concern, and the ten points are the hardest part. She could be much more valuable player if she shot half as much, but then she wouldn't be getting double doubles.
 

amh03

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She’s been playing in the W for less than 4 months….give her a chance. The stats in the ESPN rankings show she’s doing some things right.

Clark is setting records on assists but also on turnovers. They’re rookies. Give ‘em some time.
 
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amh03

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Well, yea...here are the comparisons, if you're interested:

Player - Offensive rebounds - Total season rebounds:
Clark - 12 - 178
Wilson - 67 - 351
Thomas - 80 - 270
Boston - 96 - 283
Reese - 156 - 388

Who's more effective at rebounding then her right now?
 

Spelunker

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Well, yea...here are the comparisons, if you're interested:

Player - Offensive rebounds - Total season rebounds:
Clark - 12 - 178
Wilson - 67 - 351
Thomas - 80 - 270
Boston - 96 - 283
Reese - 156 - 388

Who's more effective at rebounding then her right now?
"Only" was used in describing how many of her O rebounds were from her own misses. 33% seems really high to me- certainly well past calling it 'only'- but that's just a gut reaction with no actual numbers: maybe it *is* actually low.
 
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riboflav

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Only was used in describing how many of her O rebounds were from her own misses. 33% seems really high to me- certainly well past calling it 'only'- but that's just a gut reaction with no actual numbers: maybe it *is* actually low.
You are correct. That is a ton of rebounding your own misses. She is probably the W’s most overrated player right now and mainly bc people love a gaudy counting stat.
 

amh03

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I think "only" is relative and given the high number she's succeeding with, it's perfectly useful in describing it that way. Perhaps percentages of total offensive rebounds would be a more reflective comparison, but without doing the same calculation for other players, it's hard to really get a sense.

Bottom line, it seems that some are quick to criticize Reese on things she clearly needs to improve (and I'd imagine is something she's working hard to do), but at the same time, there isn't much credit given to what she is contributing. Again, going back to the ESPN rookie ranking methodology...I can't imagine those calculations are biased in her favor, so somehow she's doing something right. Just think it's only fair to recognize that.
 

reggiecleveland

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If Rickea Jackson had a personal beef with Caitlin Clark, she would be in the hunt. She is better than Angel Reese. I am not sure she won't end up a better player than Clark. Shoots the 3, switchable all over on D, will be really good defender, can score multiple ways.
 

amh03

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I like Jackson a lot but not sure she’s better than Reese.

She certainly attempts more 3s - 34 made in 90 attempts compared to 2 of 11 for Reese.

But her rebounding is substantially less - 188 vs 388. She’s had fewer assists - 43 vs 53. She’s had a few more turnovers - 60 vs 58 (though both combined still don’t get close to Clark’s 171).

Jackson also has fewer steals (19 vs 38) and blocks (8 vs 16).
 

riboflav

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Just a total meltdown by the Sky. An embarrassing second half and these teams are moving fast in two different directions.
 

riboflav

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Reese got to work with just over 3 minutes left after Boston and Clark checked out and down 27 scoring the majority of her points and securing her usual inconsequential double double.
 

pantsparty

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Yeah I had to laugh at the blatant stat padding. But whatever, pretty sure any record involving double/triple doubles involved stat padding along the way.

Also, lol: