Time-killing Challenge: HOF Peak Team v. the Bright Shiners Peak-ish Team

bob burda

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Jul 15, 2005
1,549
Bright Shiners:

Vida Blue, 1976: 18-13 2.35 ERA, 298 IP, 166K, 63BB, 1.109 WHIP, 7.6 BBRef WAR (led the league with a 2.56 FIP)
Frank Tanana 1976 19-10 2.43 ERA, 288 IP, 261K, 73BB, .998 WHIP, 7.5 BBRef WAR (2nd best WAR year, best FIP year)

...either one is.better than Guidry's 2nd best year, and I would say a lot better. Tanana left the scene as the junk ballers' junk baller - it is forgotten how dominant he was for 3 to 4 yrs.
 
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rockchalkredsox

New Member
Oct 31, 2013
28
1B Bright Shiner Mo Vaughn 1998

.337/.402/.591/.993 40 HR, 115 RBI 5.6 WAR

Mo's MVP season was his 3rd or 4th best it seems
Not sure where Giambi fits into the PED spectrum - but his 2000 MVP season (7.8 bWAR) was second to his 9.2 bWAR the following year.

.333/.476/.647/1.123 43 HR, 137 RBI

Now I feel gross.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
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Jul 14, 2005
23,721
Miami (oh, Miami!)
New page - so reposting with a few updates, sorts and strikes of those who seem not to make the starting squad. Argue 'em back on if you wish.

***

HOF: the best actual season, at the actual position.

Bright Shiners: the second best season of a player, at the actual position. WAR/OPS+/ERA+ all useful for comparisons of nominees. No active or recently retired players: PED passes will form an alternate squad of second-best seasons.

I'm just going to put in nominees for now. (Or someone can do that for me!!! Just copy the format) and we can decide who to strike.

HOF
SP: Pedro Martinez 2000 18-6 1.74 ERA 217 IP 248 K 32 BB 128 H .737 WHIP 291 ERA+
SP: Bob Gibson 1968 22-9 1.12 ERA 304.2 IP 268 K 62 BB 198 H .853 WHIP 258 ERA+
SP:
SP:
SP:
SP:
RP:
RP:
RP:
RP:

C:
1B:
2B:
3B:
SS:
OF: Hack Wilson, 1930: .356, .454, .723, 1.177. 56 HR, 191 RBI. 7.4 bWAR
OF:
OF:
DH: David Ortiz, 2007 .332, .445, .621, 1.066. (341TB) 6.4 bWAR


Bright Shiners
SP: Wilbur Wood, 1972: 27-17, 2.51 ERA, 1.059 WHIP, 10.7 bWAR
SP: Curt Schilling, 2002: 23-7, 3.23 ERA, 316 K, 33 BB, 9.58 K/BB, 0.968 WHIP, 8.6 WAR
SP: Kevin Brown, 1996: 233 IP, 1.89 ERA, 215 ERA+, 2.88 FIP, 159Ks, 33B. 0.944 WHIP, 7.9 bWAR
SP: Louie Tiant, 1974: 33-13, 2.92 ERA, 133 ERA+ 1.166 WHIP, 7.7 bWAR.
SP: Vida Blue, 1976: 18-13 2.35 ERA, 166K, 63BB, 1.109 WHIP, 7.6 BBRef WAR (led the league with a 2.56 FIP)
SP: Tim Lincecum, 2009: 15-7, 2.48 ERA, 261K, 68BB, 1.047 WHIP, 7.4 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Johan Santana, 2006: 19-6, 2.77 ERA, 245K, 47BB, .997 WHIP, 7.2 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Brett Saberhagen, 1985: 20-6, ERA 2.87, K 158, BB 38, WHIP 1.015. 7.1 bWAR
SP: Ron Guidry, 1979: 18-8, 2.78 era, 201 k, 1.16 whip, 7.7 k/9, 6.5 bWAR


RP: 2002 Eric Gagne, 2002: 52 SV, 1.97 ERA, 180 FIP, 0.862 WHIP 2.9 WAR4th in Cy, 12th in MVP
RP:
RP:
RP:

C: Bill Freehan, 1968: 145 OPS+, led league in HBP with 24. 25 HR, 84 RBI (good for the era, as noted by his MVP finish and OPS+, last year of high mound, "year of the pitcher") 2nd in MVP, Gold Glove.

1B: Olerud, 1998: .354/.447/.551/.998, 163 OPS+ stellar defense. 7.6 bWAR
1B: Giambi, 2000: .333/.476/.647/1.123 43 HR, 137 RBI, 7.8 bWAR
1B: Mo Vaughn, 1998: 337/.402/.591, 153 OPS+ 40 hrs, 115 rbi, 5.6 WAR

2B: Dustin Pedroia, 1998: .326/.376/.493, 123 OPS+, 17 hr, 83 rbi, 7.0 WAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1975: .260/.389/.399/.787,130 OPS+, 7.4 bWAR

3B: Dick Allen, 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+, 7.5 bWAR
SS: Nomar, 1995: .357/.418/.603/1.022 27 HR 104 RBI, 7.5 WAR

OF: Roger Maris, 1960: 98 runs, 39 HRs, 112 RBIs (league leader), .283/.371/581, Gold Glove, MVP 7.5 bWAR (his highest by WAR)
OF: Fred Lynn, 1979: .331/.406/.566, .967 OPS, 162 OPS+, good CF defense, 7.4 bWAR, ROY+MVP
OF: Dave Parker, 1978: 102 runs, 30 HRs, 117 RBIs, .334/.394/.585, Gold Glove, MVP 7.0 WAR
OF: Albert Belle, 1995: 121 runs, 50 HR, 126 RB, .317/.401/.690, Douchenozzle Extraordinare, 7.0 bWAR
OF: Dale Murphy, 1982: 113 runs, 36 HRs, 109 RBIs (league leader), .281/.378/.507, Gold Glove, MVP 6.1 bWar (4th best season)
OF: Juan Gonzalez, 1996: 89 runs, 47 HRs, 144 RBIs, .314/.368/.643, MVP 3.8 bWAR (5th best season)

DH: Travis "Pronk" Hafner, 2005: .305/.408/.595/1.003 168 OPS+ 5.4 WAR (5th MVP voting)
 
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Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
72,567
Bright Shiner C candidate

Bill Freehan 1968
2nd in MVP, Gold Glove, 145 OPS+, led league in HBP with 24. 25 HR, 84 RBI (good for the era, as noted by his MVP finish and OPS+, last year of high mound, "year of the pitcher")
 

Ralphwiggum

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Two nominations for HOF:

Pedro Martinez 2000 18-6 1.74 ERA 217 IP 248 K 32 BB 128 H .737 WHIP 291 ERA+
Bob Gibson 1968 22-9 1.12 ERA 304.2 IP 268 K 62 BB 198 H .853 WHIP 258 ERA+

Edit: 258 ERA+ for Gibson, not 158
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Aug 23, 2008
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The Bright Shiners' staff is going to need a relief ace, someone who can go multiple innings across a 7 game series given the offense they will be facing. Dick "The Monster" Radatz is one man for the job. He had three seasons as an elite multi-inning reliever before his career faded, here is the 2nd best of those 3 in 1963, when he finished 5th in the MVP voting just ahead of Yaz:

132.1 IP over 66 appearances (58 games finished)
162k to 51bb, only 9HRA
2.18 FIP
11.02 K/9
192 ERA+
*Only* 25 saves for a bad Red Sox team but who cares
Had a 30+ inning scoreless streak including June 11when he pitched the final 8.2 innings of a 15 inning win. Eat your heart out Eovaldi.

You can quibble that this was a better season than his '64 campaign but I'm favoring the extra 13 appearances and 25 IP he threw that year without a significant difference in his stats, and his strikeout total from '64 stands as a relief record to this day.
 

nayrbrey

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Jul 20, 2005
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Driving somewhere most likely
Not sure how far back we can go, but if we can do early 20th century:
Walter Johnson’s 1913 for HOFers:
36-7, 1.14 era, 346 IP, 29 CG, 11 SHO, 243 K, 38 BB, .780 WHIP, 259 era+

Edit: Damn Pedro’s year is better than that in whip and era+
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
72,567
Bright Shiners 2B candidate

Bobby Grich, 1979

.294/.365/.537/.903
30 HR, 101 RBI, All-Star, 8th in MVP

I'm using 1981 strike year as best year (led league in HR, SLG and OPS+) but either one works.
 

rockchalkredsox

New Member
Oct 31, 2013
28
Bright Shiners Closers

Keith Foulke
2003 - 3.5 bWAR, 43 saves (led league), 2.08 ERA, .888 WHIP, 9.1 K/9, 215 ERA+, top 7 CYA (best season was 4.5 bWAR in 1999)

Joe Nathan
2006 - 3.3 bWAR, 36 saves, 1.58 ERA, .790 WHIP, 12.5 K/9, 284 ERA+, top 5 CYA (best season was 3.9 bWAR in 2004)

Papelbon
2009 - 3.5 bWAR, 38 saves, 1.85 ERA, 1.147 WHIP, 10.1 K/9, 252 ERA+ OR
2007 - 3.1 bWAR, 37 saves, 1.85 ERA, .771 WHIP, 13.0 K/9, 257 ERA+ (best season was a filthy 5.0 bWAR in 2006)
 

Brand Name

make hers mark
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Moving the Line
Bright Shiners best options by bWAR. Must have played 51% of games at listed position to qualify. Normally I’d include qualified for batting title as well but given WAR is a cumulative/counting stat, that kind of takes care of itself. This composition will include players who were on ballot but not elected.

C: Thurman Munson, 1975, 6.6
1B: Todd Helton, 2004, 8.3
2B: Snuffy Stirnweiss, 1944, 8.7
3B: Alex Rodriguez, 2005, 9.4
SS: Alex Rodriguez, 1996, 9.4 (not a typo)
LF: Barry Bonds, 2002, 11.7
CF: César Cedeño, 1973, 7.4
RF: Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1911, 9.2
DH: Travis Hafner, 2005, 5.4

Pitching staff, relievers and starters had to appear in their proper role as designated below for at least 90% of their appearances that season.

SP1: Tommy Bond, 1878, 13.9
SP2: Jim Devlin, 1877, 13.2
SP3: Silver King, 1890, 13.2
SP4: Charlie Buffinton, 1888, 12.1
SP5: Jim McCormick, 1882, 11.2
RP1: Jeff Montgomery, 1993, 4.4
RP2: Ellis Kinder, 1953, 4.4
RP3: Ron Perranoski, 1963, 4.5
CL: Dick Radatz, 1963, 5.7

Sum of batting 76.1 bWAR, 82.6 bWAR pitching, net of 158.7 bWAR. By career total, only Ruth and Bonds exceed this team’s number; each at 162.7.

HOF peak team has the same rules applying to its members.

C: Mike Piazza, 1997, 8.7
1B: Lou Gehrig, 1927, 11.9
2B: Rogers Hornsby, 1924, 12.3
3B: Mike Schmidt 1974/Ron Santo 1967, 9.8
SS: Cal Ripken Jr. 1991/Honus Wagner 1908, 11.5
LF: Babe Ruth, 1921, 12.9
CF: Mickey Mantle 1957/Ty Cobb 1917, 11.3
RF: Babe Ruth, 1927, 12.6
DH: Edgar Martinez 1995/Frank Thomas 1991, 7.0

SP1: Pud Galvin, 1884, 20.5(!)
SP2: Tim Keefe, 1883, 19.9
SP3: Old Hoss Radbourn, 1884, 19.2
SP4: John Clarkson, 1889, 16.7
SP5: Cy Young, 1892, 13.9
RP: Lee Smith, 1983, 4.8
RP: Mariano Rivera, 1996, 5.0
RP: Bruce Sutter, 1977, 6.5
CL: Rich Gossage, 1975, 8.2

Batter bWAR is 98.0, pitchers are 114.7, for a sum of 212.7, or 54 more bWAR than their Bright Shiners counterparts. This difference is also the career total bWAR of Tony Perez.
 

nvalvo

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Jul 16, 2005
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Seems like the obvious place to start would be the second best seasons of two time MVPs who are not in the HOF.

Roger Maris, 1960 - 98 runs, 39 HRs, 112 RBIs (league leader), .283/.371/581, Gold Glove, MVP
Dale Murphy, 1982 - 113 runs, 36 HRs, 109 RBIs (league leader), .281/.378/.507, Gold Glove, MVP
Juan Gonzalez, 1996 - 89 runs, 47 HRs, 144 RBIs, .314/.368/.643, MVP
Well, the obvious place to start is the second best season of the one seven-time MVP who is not in the HOF.

Barry Bonds, 2002. 11.7 rWAR, a tick behind his 2001 and ahead of his 2004: .370/.582/.799/1.381. Of course, this is a player who has eight 9+ WAR seasons (and only 7 MVPs!). It'll be hard for the HOF team to beat that in the corner outfield, although one of Yaz' non-1967 seasons isn't far off.
 

nvalvo

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Jul 16, 2005
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Rogers Park
Bright Shiners best options by bWAR. Must have played 51% of games at listed position to qualify. Normally I’d include qualified for batting title as well but given WAR is a cumulative/counting stat, that kind of takes care of itself. This composition will include players who were on ballot but not elected.

C: Thurman Munson, 1975, 6.6
1B: Todd Helton, 2004, 8.3
2B: Snuffy Stirnweiss, 1944, 8.7
3B: Alex Rodriguez, 2005, 9.4
SS: Alex Rodriguez, 1996, 9.4 (not a typo)
LF: Barry Bonds, 2002, 11.7
CF: César Cedeño, 1973, 7.4
RF: Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1911, 9.2
DH: Travis Hafner, 2005, 5.4

Pitching staff, relievers and starters had to appear in their proper role as designated below for at least 90% of their appearances that season.

SP1: Tommy Bond, 1878, 13.9
SP2: Jim Devlin, 1877, 13.2
SP3: Silver King, 1890, 13.2
SP4: Charlie Buffinton, 1888, 12.1
SP5: Jim McCormick, 1882, 11.2
RP1: Jeff Montgomery, 1993, 4.4
RP2: Ellis Kinder, 1953, 4.4
RP3: Ron Perranoski, 1963, 4.5
CL: Dick Radatz, 1963, 5.7

Sum of batting 76.1 bWAR, 82.6 bWAR pitching, net of 158.7 bWAR. By career total, only Ruth and Bonds exceed this team’s number; each at 162.7.

HOF peak team has the same rules applying to its members.

C: Mike Piazza, 1997, 8.7
1B: Lou Gehrig, 1927, 11.9
2B: Rogers Hornsby, 1924, 12.3
3B: Mike Schmidt 1974/Ron Santo 1967, 9.8
SS: Cal Ripken Jr. 1991/Honus Wagner 1908, 11.5
LF: Babe Ruth, 1921, 12.9
CF: Mickey Mantle 1957/Ty Cobb 1917, 11.3
RF: Babe Ruth, 1927, 12.6
DH: Edgar Martinez 1995/Frank Thomas 1991, 7.0

SP1: Pud Galvin, 1884, 20.5(!)
SP2: Tim Keefe, 1883, 19.9
SP3: Old Hoss Radbourn, 1884, 19.2
SP4: John Clarkson, 1889, 16.7
SP5: Cy Young, 1892, 13.9
RP: Lee Smith, 1983, 4.8
RP: Mariano Rivera, 1996, 5.0
RP: Bruce Sutter, 1977, 6.5
CL: Rich Gossage, 1975, 8.2

Batter bWAR is 98.0, pitchers are 114.7, for a sum of 212.7, or 54 more bWAR than their Bright Shiners counterparts. This difference is also the career total bWAR of Tony Perez.
Eyeballing this, it would get waaaay closer if we limited the periodization to 20c/post-deadball/integration era — I mean, "SP5: Cy Young" is pretty hilarious.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
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HOF: the best actual season, at the actual position.

Bright Shiners: the second best season of a player, at the actual position. WAR/OPS+/ERA+ all useful for comparisons of nominees. No active or recently retired players: PED passes will form an alternate squad of second-best seasons.

I'm just going to put in nominees for now. (Or someone can do that for me!!! Just copy the format) and we can decide who to strike.

HOF
SP: Pedro Martinez, 2000: 18-6 1.74 ERA 217 IP 248 K 32 BB 128 H .737 WHIP 291 ERA+
SP: Bob Gibson, 1968: 22-9 1.12 ERA 304.2 IP 268 K 62 BB 198 H .853 WHIP 258 ERA+
SP: Walter Johnson, 1913: 36-7, 1.14 era, 346 IP, 29 CG, 11 SHO, 243 K, 38 BB, .780 WHIP, 259 era+
SP: Randy Johnson, 2001: 21-6, 2.49 ERA, 372 Ks, 188 ERA+, 213 FIP, 1.009 WHIP, 13.4 K/9 .WAR of 10.1
SP:
SP:
RP: Lee Smith, 1983, 4.8
RP: Mariano Rivera, 1996, 5.0
RP: Bruce Sutter, 1977, 6.5
CL: Rich Gossage, 1975, 8.2

C: Mike Piazza, 1997, 8.7
1B: Lou Gehrig, 1927, 11.9
2B: Rogers Hornsby, 1924, 12.3
3B: Mike Schmidt 1974/Ron Santo 1967, 9.8
SS: Cal Ripken Jr. 1991/Honus Wagner 1908, 11.5
LF: Babe Ruth, 1921, 12.9
CF: Mickey Mantle 1957/Ty Cobb 1917, 11.3
RF: Babe Ruth, 1927, 12.6
OF: Hack Wilson, 1930: .356, .454, .723, 1.177. 56 HR, 191 RBI. 7.4 bWAR
DH: Edgar Martinez 1995/Frank Thomas 1991, 7.0
but we are still going with:
DH: David Ortiz, 2007 .332, .445, .621, 1.066. (341TB) 6.4 bWAR


Bright Shiners
SP: Wilbur Wood, 1972: 27-17, 2.51 ERA, 1.059 WHIP, 10.7 bWAR
SP: Curt Schilling, 2002: 23-7, 3.23 ERA, 316 K, 33 BB, 9.58 K/BB, 0.968 WHIP, 8.6 WAR
SP: Kevin Appier, 1992: 2.46 ERA, 164 ERA+, 2.98 FIP, 150 Ks, 8.0 bWAR
SP: Kevin Brown, 1996: 233 IP, 1.89 ERA, 215 ERA+, 2.88 FIP, 159Ks, 33B. 0.944 WHIP, 7.9 bWAR
SP: Louie Tiant, 1974: 33-13, 2.92 ERA, 133 ERA+ 1.166 WHIP, 7.7 bWAR.
SP: Vida Blue, 1976: 18-13 2.35 ERA, 166K, 63BB, 1.109 WHIP, 7.6 BBRef WAR (led the league with a 2.56 FIP)
SP: Tim Lincecum, 2009: 15-7, 2.48 ERA, 261K, 68BB, 1.047 WHIP, 7.4 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Johan Santana, 2006: 19-6, 2.77 ERA, 245K, 47BB, .997 WHIP, 7.2 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Brett Saberhagen, 1985: 20-6, ERA 2.87, K 158, BB 38, WHIP 1.015. 7.1 bWAR
SP: Ron Guidry, 1979: 18-8, 2.78 era, 201 k, 1.16 whip, 7.7 k/9, 6.5 bWAR


RP: Eric Gagne, 2002: 52 SV, 1.97 ERA, 180 FIP, 0.862 WHIP 2.9 WAR4th in Cy, 12th in MVP
RP: Dick "The Monster" Radatz, 1963: 162k to 51bb, only 9HRA 2.18 FIP, 11.02 K/9, 192 ERA+, (30+ inning scoreless streak)
RP: Keith Foulke, 2003: 3.5 bWAR, 43 saves (led league), 2.08 ERA, .888 WHIP, 9.1 K/9, 215 ERA+, top 7 CYA
RP: Joe Nathan, 2006: 3.3 bWAR, 36 saves, 1.58 ERA, .790 WHIP, 12.5 K/9, 284 ERA+, top 5 CYA
RP: Papelbon, 2007: 3.1 bWAR, 37 saves, 1.85 ERA, .771 WHIP, 13.0 K/9, 257 ERA+
RP: Dan Quisenberry, 1985: 37 saves, 2.37 ERA, 4.2 WAR, only 55 Ks!

C: Bill Freehan, 1968: 145 OPS+, led league in HBP with 24. 25 HR, 84 RBI (good for the era, as noted by his MVP finish and OPS+, last year of high mound, "year of the pitcher") 2nd in MVP, Gold Glove.
C: Elston Howard, 1961: .348/.387/.549 with an OPS+ of 153.
C: Munson.
C: Jorge Posada, 2000: .287/.417/.527, 139 OPS+, 28 HR, 5.4 bWAR

1B: Olerud, 1998: .354/.447/.551/.998, 163 OPS+ stellar defense. 7.6 bWAR
1B: Giambi, 2000: .333/.476/.647/1.123 43 HR, 137 RBI, 7.8 bWAR
1B: Mark McGwire, 1996: .312/.467/.730 , 196 OPS+, 52 HR (in 130 games!), 6.4 WAR
1B: Mo Vaughn, 1998: 337/.402/.591, 153 OPS+ 40 hrs, 115 rbi, 5.6 WAR

2B: Dustin Pedroia, 1998: .326/.376/.493, 123 OPS+, 17 hr, 83 rbi, 7.0 WAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1975: .260/.389/.399/.787,130 OPS+, 7.4 bWAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1979: .294/.365/.537/.903, 30 HR, 101 RBI, All-Star, 8th in MVP
2B: Snuffy Stirnweiss, 1944, 8.7 bWAR.

3B: Dick Allen, 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+, 7.5 bWAR
3B: Eric Chavez, 2003: .282/.350/.514, 127 OPS+, 34 HR, 5.3 WAR (his 3rd best season by WAR!)

SS: Nomar, 1995: .357/.418/.603/1.022 27 HR 104 RBI, 7.5 WAR

OF: Roger Maris, 1960: 98 runs, 39 HRs, 112 RBIs (league leader), .283/.371/581, Gold Glove, MVP 7.5 bWAR (his highest by WAR)
OF: Fred Lynn, 1979: .331/.406/.566, .967 OPS, 162 OPS+, good CF defense, 7.4 bWAR, ROY+MVP
OF: César Cedeño, 1973, 7.4 bWAR
OF: Kenny Lofton, 1994: .349/.412/.536, 145 OPS+, 60 SB (83% success rate), 12 HR, 7.2 WAR
OF: Dave Parker, 1978: 102 runs, 30 HRs, 117 RBIs, .334/.394/.585, Gold Glove, MVP 7.0 WAR
OF: Albert Belle, 1995: 121 runs, 50 HR, 126 RB, .317/.401/.690, Douchenozzle Extraordinare, 7.0 bWAR
OF - Jim Edmonds, 2000: .295/.411/.583, 147 OPS+, 42 HR, 6.2 WAR
OF: Dale Murphy, 1982: 113 runs, 36 HRs, 109 RBIs (league leader), .281/.378/.507, Gold Glove, MVP 6.1 bWar (4th best season)
OF: Juan Gonzalez, 1996: 89 runs, 47 HRs, 144 RBIs, .314/.368/.643, MVP 3.8 bWAR (5th best season)

DH: Travis "Pronk" Hafner, 2005: .305/.408/.595/1.003 168 OPS+ 5.4 WAR (5th MVP voting)




The Alternate Squad we strongly hinted not to dwell on:
Shithead: Barry Bonds, 2002: 11.7 of HgH.
Gamethrower: Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1911: 9.2 of paid-off dollars and cents.
 
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Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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Bright Shiners nominee: 1961 Elston Howard

21 homers, 77 RBI sound pedestrian but a slashline of .348/.387/.549 with an OPS+ of 153 is pretty good for a catcher.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
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Jul 14, 2005
23,721
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Bright Shiners best options by bWAR. Must have played 51% of games at listed position to qualify. Normally I’d include qualified for batting title as well but given WAR is a cumulative/counting stat, that kind of takes care of itself. This composition will include players who were on ballot but not elected.

C: Thurman Munson, 1975, 6.6
1B: Todd Helton, 2004, 8.3
2B: Snuffy Stirnweiss, 1944, 8.7
3B: Alex Rodriguez, 2005, 9.4
SS: Alex Rodriguez, 1996, 9.4 (not a typo)
LF: Barry Bonds, 2002, 11.7
CF: César Cedeño, 1973, 7.4
RF: Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1911, 9.2
DH: Travis Hafner, 2005, 5.4

Pitching staff, relievers and starters had to appear in their proper role as designated below for at least 90% of their appearances that season.

SP1: Tommy Bond, 1878, 13.9
SP2: Jim Devlin, 1877, 13.2
SP3: Silver King, 1890, 13.2
SP4: Charlie Buffinton, 1888, 12.1
SP5: Jim McCormick, 1882, 11.2
RP1: Jeff Montgomery, 1993, 4.4
RP2: Ellis Kinder, 1953, 4.4
RP3: Ron Perranoski, 1963, 4.5
CL: Dick Radatz, 1963, 5.7

Sum of batting 76.1 bWAR, 82.6 bWAR pitching, net of 158.7 bWAR. By career total, only Ruth and Bonds exceed this team’s number; each at 162.7.

HOF peak team has the same rules applying to its members.

C: Mike Piazza, 1997, 8.7
1B: Lou Gehrig, 1927, 11.9
2B: Rogers Hornsby, 1924, 12.3
3B: Mike Schmidt 1974/Ron Santo 1967, 9.8
SS: Cal Ripken Jr. 1991/Honus Wagner 1908, 11.5
LF: Babe Ruth, 1921, 12.9
CF: Mickey Mantle 1957/Ty Cobb 1917, 11.3
RF: Babe Ruth, 1927, 12.6
DH: Edgar Martinez 1995/Frank Thomas 1991, 7.0

SP1: Pud Galvin, 1884, 20.5(!)
SP2: Tim Keefe, 1883, 19.9
SP3: Old Hoss Radbourn, 1884, 19.2
SP4: John Clarkson, 1889, 16.7
SP5: Cy Young, 1892, 13.9
RP: Lee Smith, 1983, 4.8
RP: Mariano Rivera, 1996, 5.0
RP: Bruce Sutter, 1977, 6.5
CL: Rich Gossage, 1975, 8.2

Batter bWAR is 98.0, pitchers are 114.7, for a sum of 212.7, or 54 more bWAR than their Bright Shiners counterparts. This difference is also the career total bWAR of Tony Perez.
Two thoughts:
1) the HOF team is very helpful - can you limit it to modern era players?
2) the Bright Shiner team cannot include Helton, Arod, Bonds, et. al. See upthread. Any way to limit that to the modern era?
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I don't know that I've ever had such a visceral "Oh yeah, that guy existed and I totally forgot about him" reaction as I did upon seeing Travis Hafner's name.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
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Well, the obvious place to start is the second best season of the one seven-time MVP who is not in the HOF.

Barry Bonds, 2002. 11.7 rWAR, a tick behind his 2001 and ahead of his 2004: .370/.582/.799/1.381. Of course, this is a player who has eight 9+ WAR seasons (and only 7 MVPs!). It'll be hard for the HOF team to beat that in the corner outfield, although one of Yaz' non-1967 seasons isn't far off.
Read the thread. I will put him on the alternate staff with any other stats you'd care to provide.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
22,673
Hall of Fame nominee: 2001 Randy Johnson

21-6, 2.49 ERA, 372 Ks, ERA+ of 188, FIP of 213, WHIP of 1.009, 13.4 K/9 over 249 innings. WAR of 10.1

You could argue his 2002 season was even better, but I'm a sucker for those 372 Ks.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
22,673
How do we feel about active players? I'd like to nominate Zack Britton for the Bright Shiners, given that he is extremely unlikely to make the HoF.

2016 Zack Britton

0.54 ERA, 47 saves, ERA+ of 803, 1.94 FIP, WHIP of 0.836.
 

Brand Name

make hers mark
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Moving the Line
Two thoughts:
1) the HOF team is very helpful - can you limit it to modern era players?
2) the Bright Shiner team cannot include Helton, Arod, Bonds, et. al. See upthread. Any way to limit that to the modern era?
Sure can do. I know most people say modern era begins in 1901. Some people feel differently, like I know Jon Abbey feels to only start post-integration. What’s your stance here? I ask because that way it can be researched properly.

As for second point, thanks, was trying to find anything about such a clause to no avail. I take it this means no Hall and also not on most recent ballot? Any other specifications to look for?
 

Yelling At Clouds

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I made a whole lineup out of players who haven't been mentioned that I saw as of when I started this (about 4pm EST). I tried to keep it to "players I remember." I broke the rules a few times, but I'm comfortable saying these players won't make it in anytime soon.
C - Jorge Posada, 2000: .287/.417/.527, 139 OPS+, 28 HR, 5.4 bWAR (they're all bWAR)
1B - Mark McGwire, 1996: .312/.467/.730 , 196 OPS+, 52 HR (in 130 games!), 6.4 WAR
2B - Ian Kinsler, 2009: .255/.355/.477, 32 HR, 30 SB (88% success rate!), 6.0 WAR
SS - Hanley Ramirez, 2008: .301/.400/.540, 143 OPS+, 33 HR, 35 SB, 6.7 WAR
3B - Eric Chavez, 2003: .282/.350/.514, 127 OPS+, 34 HR, 5.3 WAR (his 3rd best season by WAR!)
OF - Kenny Lofton, 1994: .349/.412/.536, 145 OPS+, 60 SB (83% success rate), 12 HR, 7.2 WAR (maybe should get an asterisk because it would have been higher if not for the strike)
OF - Jim Edmonds, 2000: .295/.411/.583, 147 OPS+, 42 HR, 6.2 WAR (also his third-best season by WAR)
OF - Jose Bautista, 2010: .260/.378/.617, 164 OPS+, 54 HR, 7.0 WAR
DH - still active, but probably (?) not going to make it into the Hall - Nelson Cruz, 2019: .311/.392/.639, 168 OPS+, 41 HRs, 4.4 WAR (this might be his best *as a DH* but I think it fits)
SP - Kevin Appier, 1992: 2.46 ERA, 164 ERA+, 2.98 FIP, 150 Ks, 8.0 WAR
CL - Dan Quisenberry, 1985: 37 saves, 2.37 ERA, 4.2 WAR, only 55 Ks!
 

Rovin Romine

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Sure can do. I know most people say modern era begins in 1901. Some people feel differently, like I know Jon Abbey feels to only start post-integration. What’s your stance here? I ask because that way it can be researched properly.
I think that's a question for the thread. I usually go with 1901, knowing that the game changes with time (e.g., a pitcher from the pitcher's era is just that, compared to Pedro). . .but let's see what the group thinks.

It's more of a fun challenge than a fact-correct research thing I think.

As for second point, thanks, was trying to find anything about such a clause to no avail. I take it this means no Hall and also not on most recent ballot? Any other specifications to look for?
Yep. We're only considering people in or out of the hall, not currently being voted on or up for future consideration by the writers. Due to the obvious censure for drug-use, we're putting guys like Clemens and Bonds on the Alt list, should anyone A) care, and B) choose to nominate them and provide stats.

Otherwise, if they fell off the most recent ballot like Paps, they're eligible.
 

Rovin Romine

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I made a whole lineup out of players who haven't been mentioned that I saw as of when I started this (about 4pm EST). I tried to keep it to "players I remember." I broke the rules a few times, but I'm comfortable saying these players won't make it in anytime soon.
Nice work, and a very nice find on Appier! I added those who qualified.
 

Rovin Romine

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HOF: the best actual season, at the actual position.

Bright Shiners: the second best season of a player, at the actual position. WAR/OPS+/ERA+ all useful for comparisons of nominees. No active or recently retired players: PED passes will form an alternate squad of second-best seasons.

I have tried to sort in rough bWAR order, but that only goes so far. For example, we might not choose to weigh Snuffy Stirnweiss' 1944, campaign - pre-integration and missing players due to the war, on the same footing as other candidates.

For nominees who seem clearly a notch below other nominees, I have added a strikethrough line, but not removed them. You can argue for someone to be unstruck or moved up onto the starter's list. I have left close calls alone.

HOF
SP: Pedro Martinez, 2000: 18-6 1.74 ERA 217 IP 248 K 32 BB 128 H .737 WHIP 291 ERA+
SP: Bob Gibson, 1968: 22-9 1.12 ERA 304.2 IP 268 K 62 BB 198 H .853 WHIP 258 ERA+
SP: Walter Johnson, 1913: 36-7, 1.14 era, 346 IP, 29 CG, 11 SHO, 243 K, 38 BB, .780 WHIP, 259 era+
SP: Randy Johnson, 2001: 21-6, 2.49 ERA, 372 Ks, 188 ERA+, 213 FIP, 1.009 WHIP, 13.4 K/9 .WAR of 10.1
SP:
SP:
RP: Lee Smith, 1983, 4.8
RP: Mariano Rivera, 1996, 5.0
RP: Bruce Sutter, 1977, 6.5
CL: Rich Gossage, 1975, 8.2

C: Mike Piazza, 1997, 8.7
1B: Lou Gehrig, 1927, 11.9
2B: Rogers Hornsby, 1924, 12.3
3B: Mike Schmidt 1974/Ron Santo 1967, 9.8
SS: Cal Ripken Jr. 1991/Honus Wagner 1908, 11.5
LF: Babe Ruth, 1921, 12.9
CF: Mickey Mantle 1957/Ty Cobb 1917, 11.3
RF: Babe Ruth, 1927, 12.6
OF: Hack Wilson, 1930: .356, .454, .723, 1.177. 56 HR, 191 RBI. 7.4 bWAR
DH: Edgar Martinez 1995/Frank Thomas 1991, 7.0
but we are still going with:
DH: David Ortiz, 2007 .332, .445, .621, 1.066. (341TB) 6.4 bWAR


Bright Shiners
SP: Wilbur Wood, 1972: 27-17, 2.51 ERA, 1.059 WHIP, 10.7 bWAR
SP: Curt Schilling, 2002: 23-7, 3.23 ERA, 316 K, 33 BB, 9.58 K/BB, 0.968 WHIP, 8.6 WAR
SP: Kevin Appier, 1992: 2.46 ERA, 164 ERA+, 2.98 FIP, 150 Ks, 8.0 bWAR
SP: Kevin Brown, 1996: 233 IP, 1.89 ERA, 215 ERA+, 2.88 FIP, 159Ks, 33B. 0.944 WHIP, 7.9 bWAR
SP: Louie Tiant, 1974: 33-13, 2.92 ERA, 133 ERA+ 1.166 WHIP, 7.7 bWAR.
SP: Vida Blue, 1976: 18-13 2.35 ERA, 166K, 63BB, 1.109 WHIP, 7.6 BBRef WAR (led the league with a 2.56 FIP)
SP: Tim Lincecum, 2009: 15-7, 2.48 ERA, 261K, 68BB, 1.047 WHIP, 7.4 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Johan Santana, 2006: 19-6, 2.77 ERA, 245K, 47BB, .997 WHIP, 7.2 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Brett Saberhagen, 1985: 20-6, ERA 2.87, K 158, BB 38, WHIP 1.015. 7.1 bWAR
SP: Ron Guidry, 1979: 18-8, 2.78 era, 201 k, 1.16 whip, 7.7 k/9, 6.5 bWAR


RP: Eric Gagne, 2002: 52 SV, 1.97 ERA, 180 FIP, 0.862 WHIP 2.9 WAR4th in Cy, 12th in MVP
RP: Dick "The Monster" Radatz, 1963: 162k to 51bb, only 9HRA 2.18 FIP, 11.02 K/9, 192 ERA+, (30+ inning scoreless streak)
RP: Keith Foulke, 2003: 3.5 bWAR, 43 saves (led league), 2.08 ERA, .888 WHIP, 9.1 K/9, 215 ERA+, top 7 CYA
RP: Joe Nathan, 2006: 3.3 bWAR, 36 saves, 1.58 ERA, .790 WHIP, 12.5 K/9, 284 ERA+, top 5 CYA
RP: Papelbon, 2007: 3.1 bWAR, 37 saves, 1.85 ERA, .771 WHIP, 13.0 K/9, 257 ERA+
RP: Dan Quisenberry, 1985: 37 saves, 2.37 ERA, 4.2 WAR, only 55 Ks!

C: Bill Freehan, 1968: 145 OPS+, led league in HBP with 24. 25 HR, 84 RBI (good for the era, as noted by his MVP finish and OPS+, last year of high mound, "year of the pitcher") 2nd in MVP, Gold Glove.
C: Elston Howard, 1961: .348/.387/.549 with an OPS+ of 153.
C: Munson.
C: Jorge Posada, 2000: .287/.417/.527, 139 OPS+, 28 HR, 5.4 bWAR

1B: Olerud, 1998: .354/.447/.551/.998, 163 OPS+ stellar defense. 7.6 bWAR
1B: Giambi, 2000: .333/.476/.647/1.123 43 HR, 137 RBI, 7.8 bWAR
1B: Mark McGwire, 1996: .312/.467/.730 , 196 OPS+, 52 HR (in 130 games!), 6.4 WAR
1B: Mo Vaughn, 1998: 337/.402/.591, 153 OPS+ 40 hrs, 115 rbi, 5.6 WAR

2B: Dustin Pedroia, 1998: .326/.376/.493, 123 OPS+, 17 hr, 83 rbi, 7.0 WAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1975: .260/.389/.399/.787,130 OPS+, 7.4 bWAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1979: .294/.365/.537/.903, 30 HR, 101 RBI, All-Star, 8th in MVP
2B: Snuffy Stirnweiss, 1944, 8.7 bWAR.

3B: Dick Allen, 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+, 7.5 bWAR
3B: Eric Chavez, 2003: .282/.350/.514, 127 OPS+, 34 HR, 5.3 WAR (his 3rd best season by WAR!)

SS: Nomar, 1995: .357/.418/.603/1.022 27 HR 104 RBI, 7.5 WAR

OF: Roger Maris, 1960: 98 runs, 39 HRs, 112 RBIs (league leader), .283/.371/581, Gold Glove, MVP 7.5 bWAR (his highest by WAR)
OF: Fred Lynn, 1979: .331/.406/.566, .967 OPS, 162 OPS+, good CF defense, 7.4 bWAR, ROY+MVP
OF: César Cedeño, 1973, 7.4 bWAR
OF: Kenny Lofton, 1994: .349/.412/.536, 145 OPS+, 60 SB (83% success rate), 12 HR, 7.2 WAR
OF: Dave Parker, 1978: 102 runs, 30 HRs, 117 RBIs, .334/.394/.585, Gold Glove, MVP 7.0 WAR
OF: Albert Belle, 1995: 121 runs, 50 HR, 126 RB, .317/.401/.690, Douchenozzle Extraordinare, 7.0 bWAR
OF Jim Edmonds, 2000: .295/.411/.583, 147 OPS+, 42 HR, 6.2 WAR
OF: Dale Murphy, 1982: 113 runs, 36 HRs, 109 RBIs (league leader), .281/.378/.507, Gold Glove, MVP 6.1 bWar (4th best season)
OF: Juan Gonzalez, 1996: 89 runs, 47 HRs, 144 RBIs, .314/.368/.643, MVP 3.8 bWAR (5th best season)


DH: Travis "Pronk" Hafner, 2005: .305/.408/.595/1.003 168 OPS+ 5.4 WAR (5th MVP voting)




The Alternate Squad we strongly hinted not to dwell on:
Shithead: Barry Bonds, 2002: 11.7 of HgH.
Gamethrower: Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1911: 9.2 of paid-off dollars and cents.
 
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coremiller

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For HOF SP:

Steve Carlton 1972: 346.1 IP, 1.97 ERA, 188 ERA+, 2.01 FIP, 310 Ks, .993 WHIP, 12.1 bWAR.
Greg Maddux 1995: 209.2 IP, 1.63 ERA, 260 ERA+, 2.26 FIP, 0.811 WHIP, 181 Ks vs. only 23 BBs, 9.7 bWAR (would have been higher but Maddux lost 3-4 starts due to the strike-shortened season).

For HOF catcher, I would take Johnny Bench's 1972 over Piazza's 1997. They come out about the same in WAR (8.7 vs. 8.6), but catcher is a defense-first position and everything we know about them suggests Bench was a much better defensive catcher than Piazza.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Nice work, and a very nice find on Appier! I added those who qualified.
Thanks. For whatever reason, he's stuck out in my mind as a go-to example of a pitcher who was way better than everyone remembers. I will admit, though, that I don't precisely get how Appier's season was worth that much?
Another one who might make the cut for you is Dave Stieb, who had a few years in that 7.0 WAR range. 1982 was technically his second-best year at 7.6 WAR, but 1983 looks more impressive - 2.83 ERA (142 ERA+), 187 Ks, kind of a lot of walks, I guess (93).
 

coremiller

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For the Bright Shiners, Munson's second best year by WAR was 1975 (6.6), when he hit .318/.366/.429/.795, 126 OPS+.
 

coremiller

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Thanks. For whatever reason, he's stuck out in my mind as a go-to example of a pitcher who was way better than everyone remembers. I will admit, though, that I don't precisely get how Appier's season was worth that much?
Another one who might make the cut for you is Dave Stieb, who had a few years in that 7.0 WAR range. 1982 was technically his second-best year at 7.6 WAR, but 1983 looks more impressive - 2.83 ERA (142 ERA+), 187 Ks, kind of a lot of walks, I guess (93).
This is one of those cases where WAR method makes a big difference. bWAR likes Appier's 1992 a lot because he had a good ERA and it thinks he played in front of a bad defense in a hitters' park. fWAR looks at his mediocre K/BB totals (150 Ks/68 BBs) and is unimpressed, giving Appier only 4.8 WAR.
 

rockchalkredsox

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Oct 31, 2013
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SS Bright Shiner 1995 Nomar
.357/.418/.603/1.022 27 HR 104 RBI, 7.5 WAR

(Best was 2000 8.2 WAR, .372, 1.033)
Slight point of order - Nomar didn't play in 1995, those are the figures from his 1999 season but the WAR is off (6.3 fWAR (his 4th highest season) or 6.6 bWAR (tied for 4th highest season)). 2000 was definitely his best season by WAR regardless of the source (7.6 fWAR, 7.4 bWAR). I think Fregosi is the only other SS not in the HOF with at least two seasons over 7 WAR but his counting stats are nowhere near Nomar's.
 

semsox

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Bright Shiner SP: Denny McLain 1968, 31-6, 1.96 ERA, 336 IP, 2.53 FIP, 0.905 WHIP, Cy Young, MVP, 7.4 bWAR (stats despite leading league in HR allowed - 31)
 

Yelling At Clouds

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I present to you the case of one Clifton Phifer Lee, whose best season by BBRef WAR is his second-best by the FG version.
P - Cliff Lee, 2011: 2.40 ERA, 160 ERA+, 238 Ks in 232.2 innings, 42 BB is kind of a lot for him, though. 7.1 fWAR, 8.5bWAR.
 

teddywingman

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I present to you the case of one Clifton Phifer Lee, whose best season by BBRef WAR is his second-best by the FG version.
P - Cliff Lee, 2011: 2.40 ERA, 160 ERA+, 238 Ks in 232.2 innings, 42 BB is kind of a lot for him, though. 7.1 fWAR, 8.5bWAR.
I was just looking at Cliff Lee. He also had 6 shutouts in 2011, including 3 starts in a row in the second half of June. His June numbers were insane. 1 earned run in 42 innings.

By bWAR, his 2nd best season is 2008, when he went 22-3, won the CYA, and led the league in ERA, ERA+, SHO, FIP, HR9, BB9, and of course wins and W/L%
 

EpsteinsGorillaSuit

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Bright shiner:
1B Mark McGwire 2nd best season was 1992: 6.4 WAR, Lead league in OPS+.
Edit: deleted table, but looks like Giambi's 2nd best season is better.

2010 Robinson Cano is unfortunately better (8.1 WAR) than any of the 2nd best 2B seasons suggested.
2008 and 2010 Joe Mauer are both candidates for bright shiner 2nd best seasons at C. 2009 was his best year.
 
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Tokyo Sox

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I have to think current HoF SP4 will eventually get bounced: Randy Johnson, 2001: 21-6, 2.49 ERA, 372 Ks, 188 ERA+, 213 FIP, 1.009 WHIP, 13.4 K/9 .WAR of 10.1

by either this:
Steve Carlton 1972: 346.1 IP, 1.97 ERA, 188 ERA+, 2.01 FIP, 310 Ks, .993 WHIP, 12.1 bWAR.
and/or Sandy Koufax's 1963 or 1966:
1963: 311 IP, 306 K, 1.88 ERA (159 ERA+), 0.875 WHIP, 10.7 bWAR, CY, MVP (plus 11 SHO)
1966: 323 IP, 317 K, 1.73 ERA (190 ERA+), 0.985 WHIP, 10.3 bWAR, CY (plus 27(!) CG)
 

trs

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Pete Rose? I know he's out of the Hall for "technical" reasons just like the steroids guys, and I think I saw earlier that Shoeless Joe was off the list, so perhaps Rose is just as easily disqualified.

If he were eligible for the Bright Shiners, he could go at many different positions, and picking a second-best season at a given position requires a bit more coffee than I've had this morning, BUT as an OF:

1968: .335/.391/.470/.861 152 OPS+, 5.7 BWAR in a year when the league slash line was .243/.300/.341/.641 and an OPS+ of 93.
 

mauf

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There’s a whole discussion to be had about defense, but no one had a better offensive season as a catcher in MLB than Mike Piazza in 1997

362/431/638
40 HR, 124 RBI
8.7 WAR

The phrase “in MLB” is key, because Josh Gibson is hands-down the best catcher ever. I’ll nominate his 1936 season, but you could make a case for 2 or 3 others.

389/478/783
18 HR. 66 RBI in 50 games
 
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Didot Fromager

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Apr 23, 2010
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The rules don't prohibit this but it is not logical to have Babe Ruth in two different places in the same time. If you accept that a player can only be on this list once, then something interesting happens. The best season by a HOF LF not named Baby Ruth is 1967 Carl Yastrzemski with a 12.4 WAR, only 0.5 behind Ruth's 1921 season. The best seasons for a HOF RF not named Babe Ruth is Larry Walker at 9.8 WAR, 3.4 behind Ruth.

So should we leave Ruth in right and have Captain Carl in left?

PS - the best season of any RF not named Ruth is 2018 Mookie Betts, but that doesn't qualify under these rules.
 

BaseballJones

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Why aren't we adding Koji's 2013 season? Oh wait, that was his best season, and we're still using the "second best season" rule? Because his 2013 season was beyond ridiculous:

74.1 ip, 1.09 era, 379 era+, 21 sv, 0.57 whip, 12.2 k/9, 3.5 bWAR

But I guess that doesn't qualify.