Tito

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I was out tonight, and missed some of the early innings, picking it up in the 5th. A fantastic game to be sure-- the 2 run wild pitch, Ross' HR, Guyer and Davis schooling Chapman (Santa Maria!!), then the 10th inning rally. Without having followed the game thread, I wanted to see what people thought of Tito. I think he deserves his own, updated thread.
The Cubs won the World Series, and I'm very happy for them, especially their fans. Forget the suffering of the players, Joe Maddon or Theo. They were playing with house money. But for the legion of lifetime fans out there: congratulations. This is for you.
That said, I feel Tito needs to be congratulated, praised, for being an excellent manager and human being. There was talk of whether he will make the HOF or not; I really don't care, but I suspect he will. But what I took from these playoffs is that he was the best team manager on display.
Really, no one thought the Indians would do much. They had one solid but not awesome starter, another who performed better than expected until the end, and not much else. Their lineup was spotty, batting under .200 in the LCS, and not much better the rest of the way. Lindor was a revelation, but few others were reliable contributors. Still, they did enough. From the moment he brought Miller in the 5th inning in game 1 against the Red Sox, Tito seemingly redefined playoff managing in the modern era. And even then, he got consistently excellent performances from Miller and Allen, while Shaw and the rest were marginal, at least in my assessment. And the Indians came within inches of winning it all.
As Red Sox manager, I was always fond of and grateful to Tito. He seemed reasonably astute as a manager, if not a top notch tactician. It appears he may be one now. Maddon has been professed as the best, but he was clearly overthinking things this fall, and I feel like it took his team's superior talent to win in the end. I saw references to Tito having a bad game tonight, perhaps for leaving Kluber in too long, but he didn't call a stupid squeeze or take out effective pitchers and roll the dice.
And then, whenever I hear Tito speak, or read what he says, he tells it exactly like it is. He is deep, human, intelligent and caring. He is a "player's manager", as are Maddon and Farrell, but with a good edge. Think trash-talking Pedroia about cribbage to the press. He is a down to earth, sensitive man, who both realizes the privilege he has to play baseball for a living, yet treats his people like family in an effort to get the most from them, and himself. He is definitely growing as a manager. He is better now than he was with the Sox, more at ease with himself and his job.
So I wanted to give a shout out to Tito for being among the best in his profession. Thanks for teaching me more about baseball, and life.
 

spiritof1967

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Jul 14, 2012
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... That said, I feel Tito needs to be congratulated, praised, for being an excellent manager and human being. There was talk of whether he will make the HOF or not; I really don't care, but I suspect he will. But what I took from these playoffs is that he was the best team manager on display... And then, whenever I hear Tito speak, or read what he says, he tells it exactly like it is. He is deep, human, intelligent and caring. He is a "player's manager", as are Maddon and Farrell, but with a good edge. Think trash-talking Pedroia about cribbage to the press. He is a down to earth, sensitive man, who both realizes the privilege he has to play baseball for a living, yet treats his people like family in an effort to get the most from them, and himself. He is definitely growing as a manager. He is better now than he was with the Sox, more at ease with himself and his job... So I wanted to give a shout out to Tito for being among the best in his profession. Thanks for teaching me more about baseball, and life.
Well said! His deadpan sense of humor is matchless. Best MLB quote of the year has to be "...We've all at some point had a drone-related problem."
 

lexrageorge

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I agree with all of the above. The criticism of Tito's handling of the Indians' playoff run is clearly uninformed; Tito did not "blow" Game 7 by any stretch of the imagination.
 

simplicio

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If this postseason doesn't give him a lock on the HOF I don't know what will. Guiding that team all the way to game 7 extras against the juggernaut Cubs without his #2 & 3 starters is completely insane. It's been a joy to watch Cleveland over the last month, even through their demolition of the Sox.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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If this postseason doesn't give him a lock on the HOF I don't know what will. Guiding that team all the way to game 7 extras against the juggernaut Cubs without his #2 & 3 starters is completely insane. It's been a joy to watch Cleveland over the last month, even through their demolition of the Sox.
Winning the WS would have helped.

Yeah, in current sight he did a helluva job with that team and Red Sox fans all love him. But when the BBWAA looks back on his career when he's eligible, many of them will see "won 2 WS in Boston, lost 1 WS in Cleveland" and will go on to the next name on the list.
 

Cumberland Blues

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Besides Tito, there are 12 other managers with 2 WS titles. Half of those are in the HOF, and Tito has a better W% than 4 of the 6 HOFers. The Tribe winning last night would've moved Tito's HOF chances from 90% to 100% (all managers w/ 3+ rings are in except for the still active Bochy), but Tito is still very likely to get in. And he may well get another shot at #3, as this should not be a one and done run for the Tribe, they should be contenders for the next couple years anyhow.
 

wiffleballhero

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In the simulacrum
Obviously Theo goes to the hall of fame. The number of executive who have such distinct, signature events that they are vital to is pretty small. Most of them, even the great ones, are pretty hard to pinpoint in terms of their particular impact, or where they have impact it has to be behind the scenes. But the unique 'curse buster' thing makes for as good a narrative as possible. And in the dual-curse breaker bit, he is alone. Maybe if David Ortiz had gone to the Cubs for 2016 Theo might take a bit more of a back seat in his own story.

As for Tito, it is hard to get my Tito-lovin'-glasses off. He clearly out managed Maddon with an almost painfully thin staff. I would imagine that one more World Series win gets him in (although it all seems like a crap shoot to me. I still want Dwight Evans in).
 

grimshaw

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On his side, 15 of the 23 managers who have won at least 2 world series are in the HoF. All who have won at least 3 are.

Also on his side, Whitey Herzog is in with one world series and 6 playoff appearances in 18 years. Tito is at 7 playoff appearances for 16 seasons. Weirdly, his winning percentage is only 69th all time which seems hard to do given the post season success.

Most managers who are in have at least 20 years on the job, so I think he'll need about 5 more to cement it, but I think he'd have a so so shot right now.
 

mauf

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Three more seasons of .500 managing would put Tito in the top 20 all-time for managerial wins. Of those 20, 14 are Hall of Famers. The 6 who aren't:

Gene Mauch
Lou Piniella
Bruce Bochy
Jim Leyland
Dusty Baker
Ralph Houk

The only two of those six with multiple championships as managers are Bochy and Houk; Bochy will be inducted as soon as he's eligible, and Houk is a special case. Tito has a better winning percentage than all six, and he's highly likely to finish ahead of all of them except Baker.

A win last night definitely would've punched Tito's ticket, but I think he'll make it anyway.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Then it's a pity they couldn't be bothered to watch the games.
You don't know the terrible workload most BBWAA members toil under.
It's not that they didn't watch the games, nor the workload (I laughed), but it's looking at the options up for election 5 or 10 years from now (frankly, I can't figure out the managerial eligibility rules and I just spent 10 minutes with Lord Google trying to find out) and seeing that "this guy won 2 World Series" and that guy had a .595 winning percentage, etc. These are the same guys who pick the MVP and Cy Young winners -- you think they're going to spend more time sussing out the best candidates for the HoF when they do such an awesome job on annual awards?
 

mauf

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How so? I'm curious.
Houk succeeded Casey Stengel as MFY manager and won three pennants and two World Series from 1961-63. After that, he was a sub-.500 manager for 17 years, making no postseason appearances during those years. To my recollection, he wasn't regarded as a terribly good manager -- just someone who was in the right place at the right time early in his career.
 

Average Reds

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Houk succeeded Casey Stengel as MFY manager and won three pennants and two World Series from 1961-63. After that, he was a sub-.500 manager for 17 years, making no postseason appearances during those years. To my recollection, he wasn't regarded as a terribly good manager -- just someone who was in the right place at the right time early in his career.
This is accurate.

There's also the issue that anyone who grew up reading Ball Four would not be positively inclined to vote for Houk.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Also on his side, Whitey Herzog is in with one world series and 6 playoff appearances in 18 years. Tito is at 7 playoff appearances for 16 seasons. Weirdly, his winning percentage is only 69th all time which seems hard to do given the post season success.
Don't forget the era in which Tito is managing...that of the wildcard. Herzog's teams won six division titles. Francona has had the benefit of the wildcard spot(s) to earn five of his seven postseason appearances, though obviously one of those wildcard years led to a championship.

As to his career winning percentage...he's still hampered in that department by those four years in Philly. He's won at a .564 clip with Boston and Cleveland, which would place him 21st all time.
 

JimD

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I agree with all of the above. The criticism of Tito's handling of the Indians' playoff run is clearly uninformed; Tito did not "blow" Game 7 by any stretch of the imagination.
He didn't 'blow' the game but he did have a slow hook Wednesday night. It was obvious pretty early that Kluber was not the dominating pitcher we had seen all month and did not have it that night, yet Francona seemed determined to stick to his new formula and ride him as long as possible, then go to an equally gassed Miller for a multi-inning save. Between the two of them they gave up six runs in six innings - I think it's arguable that after riding both guys so hard all month to get there, a better option may have been to go to the bullpen early and use guys like Bauer and Merritt for an inning or so each and try to save Miller for a key situation instead of trying to get one more multi-inning save out of him. I also question bringing Shaw back after the rain delay and leaving him in there instead of having someone like Bauer ready to go once play resumed. He still managed better than Maddon did in this game but it was not vintage Playoff Tito in my opinion, and it doesn't take away from his Cooperstown credentials to acknowledge this.
 

grimshaw

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Don't forget the era in which Tito is managing...that of the wildcard. Herzog's teams won six division titles. Francona has had the benefit of the wildcard spot(s) to earn five of his seven postseason appearances, though obviously one of those wildcard years led to a championship.

As to his career winning percentage...he's still hampered in that department by those four years in Philly. He's won at a .564 clip with Boston and Cleveland, which would place him 21st all time.
Your first point is good, and I'd even add that divisions were 6 teams during his era with much less payroll disparity so it was even tougher.
Point 2, I guess doesn't really hurt or harm his case since there are quite a few Hall of Famers with lower percentages. And Bochy is barely over .500 himself due to his .493 in 12 seasons in SD.
 

Average Reds

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I read Ball Four years ago, probably have it around somewhere, but what did Bouton say about Houk?
Unsurprisingly, Bouton did not like his old school approach.

He did think Houk was a smart manager, but he held petty, personal grudges and allowed that to affect both the way he managed and his input into the construction of the team's roster, which exacerbated the decline of the Yankees in the late 60s.
 

Al Zarilla

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Unsurprisingly, Bouton did not like his old school approach.

He did think Houk was a smart manager, but he held petty, personal grudges and allowed that to affect both the way he managed and his input into the construction of the team's roster, which exacerbated the decline of the Yankees in the late 60s.
That's interesting, like for when we get into the discussions about Farrell and how can we even tell if he is a good manager or not. If a manager drags his likes or dislikes of players into it and it affects who stays and who leaves the team, that's bad managing. I don't think Farrell would ever pull that crap and no way would Francona.
 

glasspusher

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Houk succeeded Casey Stengel as MFY manager and won three pennants and two World Series from 1961-63. After that, he was a sub-.500 manager for 17 years, making no postseason appearances during those years. To my recollection, he wasn't regarded as a terribly good manager -- just someone who was in the right place at the right time early in his career.
Ahh, of course. Thank you.
 

TheYaz67

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Bumpity Bump to note Tito winning his second Manager of the Year award from the BBWA. His last win was in 2013 - so this is his second with the Indians.

Remember that he finished 5th in Manager of the Year voting in 2004, the year that Buck Showalter won for guiding the Rangers to a 89 and 73 finish - good for 3rd place of 4 teams in the AL West that year....
 

Plympton91

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Winning the WS would have helped.

Yeah, in current sight he did a helluva job with that team and Red Sox fans all love him. But when the BBWAA looks back on his career when he's eligible, many of them will see "won 2 WS in Boston, lost 1 WS in Cleveland" and will go on to the next name on the list.
They have their entire rotation back next year as well as Miller and Allen. Lindor and Ramirez are not Even arbitration eligible yet. I don't think Francona's post-season resume is qiuite complete.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Had I been answering the question "will Tito make the HoF?" then you're right, my answer would be shortsighted. But that's not the question I was answering it was "is he a lock for the HoF right now?" and the answer is NO.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Remember that he finished 5th in Manager of the Year voting in 2004, the year that Buck Showalter won for guiding the Rangers to a 89 and 73 finish - good for 3rd place of 4 teams in the AL West that year....
He was also viewed much differently back then. His managing ability wasn't truly appreciated until after 2004. He probably deserved it most in 2008 (losing Schilling before the season, coming off a title, weathering the Manny trade/Bay introduction, Colón quitting on the team Beckett regressing, Julián Tavárez, etc.) but, like in 2005, the guy who ended up knocking him out in October did something even more impressive.

I'm sure the two rings he won make up for not winning the awards, though.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Had I been answering the question "will Tito make the HoF?" then you're right, my answer would be shortsighted. But that's not the question I was answering it was "is he a lock for the HoF right now?" and the answer is NO.
You wrote about how he'll look to people in the future with his current record as the only accomplishments. He's probably not done, so considering what the people of the future think and not taking into consideration that he's got a few more cracks at it is odd, and not convincing.

And as for "NO"--he's 3-1 in the LCS, 2-1 in the World Series--with both losses coming in Game 7s, and the WS loss against a clearly superior team with half his rotation hurt or on limited use. Only 9 of the 22 managers currently in the HoF won more than two World Series.

We're just arguing the definition of "lock." He's getting in.