Top Players under 25

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Pretty accurate tiering of youngsters by @Cesar Crespo

feels like Desmond Bane is jumping up a tier

throw Kuminga on there, and punt Wiseman, since we don't know what he is other than a BIG that is injured (Tier BIG?)
I could see moving Bane up a tier. I almost did. Almost put JJJ in tier 2 but decided against it. He's younger than Ja. If they can keep the Ja/JJJ/Bane core together, they are going to be good for a long time.

On another note: Putting Isaac in Tier BIG is probably unfair to him. But he hasn't played in some time so he's lucky I named him at all. He's probably right there with JJJ if/when he's ever healthy.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Jul 19, 2005
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Poole scoring last 12 games: 23, 23, 32, 20, 21, 30, 20, 29, 28, 26, 30. Youngest Warrior with that many straight 20+ point games since Rick Barry.

Averaging 24.5 PPG on .697 TS in March. 4.8 APG, including nine dimes tonight filling for Steph at starting PG.

On the season: 17.8 ppg in 29.4 minutes on .604 true shooting

Better than half the guys on tier three, imo.
 

RorschachsMask

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Aug 23, 2011
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ESPN just released their new one.


ESPN's 25 Under 25 List

2. Jayson Tatum | SF | Boston Celtics

Age: 24.1
2021-22 stats: 26.9 PPG | 8.0 RPG | 4.4 APG
Last year's ranking: 5

We can write an entire article on why Tatum is a franchise player. The forward has elevated himself from a perennial All-Star to now a player who will see his name on the All-NBA team this year, while also receiving votes for MVP. Since the All-Star break, Tatum is one of three players -- Kevin Durant and Devin Booker the others -- to average 30 points while shooting 50% from the field and 40% on 3s.

-- Marks

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/33687272/nba-25-25-ranking-anthony-edwards-evan-mobley-top-young-stars-based-future-potential
 

ugmo33

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May 6, 2016
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ESPN just released their new one.


ESPN's 25 Under 25 List

2. Jayson Tatum | SF | Boston Celtics

Age: 24.1
2021-22 stats: 26.9 PPG | 8.0 RPG | 4.4 APG
Last year's ranking: 5

We can write an entire article on why Tatum is a franchise player. The forward has elevated himself from a perennial All-Star to now a player who will see his name on the All-NBA team this year, while also receiving votes for MVP. Since the All-Star break, Tatum is one of three players -- Kevin Durant and Devin Booker the others -- to average 30 points while shooting 50% from the field and 40% on 3s.

-- Marks

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/insider/story/_/id/33687272/nba-25-25-ranking-anthony-edwards-evan-mobley-top-young-stars-based-future-potential
And Time Lord essentially at #26 since he's on two of the three ballots
 

RG33

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Nov 28, 2005
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For whatever reason (gambling), I’ve watched a lot of Anthony Edwards this year. I think the dude is going to be an absolute superstar. I don’t think you can argue too much with Luka / JT / Ja / Trae on that list — but I think Edwards should be somewhere in the 5-8 range in lieu of Lamelo / Cade / Zion (come on). He is fun to watch — has a complete game (aside from defense) and just feels special.
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
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Tatum is better on both sides of the ball. And defensively this isn't even a contest as one's a sieve.
 

Auger34

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For whatever reason (gambling), I’ve watched a lot of Anthony Edwards this year. I think the dude is going to be an absolute superstar. I don’t think you can argue too much with Luka / JT / Ja / Trae on that list — but I think Edwards should be somewhere in the 5-8 range in lieu of Lamelo / Cade / Zion (come on). He is fun to watch — has a complete game (aside from defense) and just feels special.
In that ESPN poll, two of the 3 voters had Edwards 6….and then one had him 24 which bumped him down a good amount
 

benhogan

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Nov 2, 2007
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Tatum is better on both sides of the ball. And defensively this isn't even a contest as one's a sieve.
for whatever reason, these morons can't get their heads around defense & versatility

these lists are so subjective but I guess watching/assessing their defense is a bridge too far...lazy
 

Auger34

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Apr 23, 2010
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The voters in this were Kevin Pelton, Bobby Marks and Mike Schmitz
1. Doncic
2. Tatum
3. Ja
4. Trae
5. LaMelo
6. Cade
7. Zion
8. Bam
9. Garland
10. SGA
11. Anthony Edwards
12. Brandon Ingram
13. Scottie Barnes
14. Haliburton
15. Evan Mobley
16. Miles Bridges
17. Desmond Bane
18. Jarrett Allen
19. Ayton
20. Herro
21. Jalen Green
22. DeAaron Fox
23. John collins
24. Maxey
25. JJJ
 

the moops

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The top of that list looks exactly right to me.

Doncic has improved his defense, so calling him a sieve is incorrect. He is also a full year younger than Tatum.
 

nighthob

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He’s a sieve. There’s a reason Dallas takes pains to hide him. Something you never have to do with Tatum.
 

JakeRae

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The top of that list looks exactly right to me.

Doncic has improved his defense, so calling him a sieve is incorrect. He is also a full year younger than Tatum.
I don’t think the list is age-adjusted so being a year younger shouldn’t matter. One can debate who will end up better, but Tatum is a better overall player right now.
 

Auger34

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My main take away from that list is that Desmond Bane is too high….
 

Jimbodandy

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He’s a sieve. There’s a reason Dallas takes pains to hide him. Something you never have to do with Tatum.
Per D-DPM Doncic is in a group with the likes of Donovan Mitchell and Evan Fournier. Also Josh Giddey. It's not Trae Young bad, but it's pretty bad.

Not sure if we know whether some of these guys can play defense and just don't.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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I don't really understand the criteria of the list; is it supposed to be for players who you THINK are going to be the best/people you would want to start a franchise with; or is it for players based on their skill level right now?

For instance; I certainly think John Collins is a better player today than Jalen Green, so perhaps it's based on potential and less on current effectiveness. But I also think that I'd much rather have Evan Mobley than Brandon Ingram if I was starting a franchise. So which is it?
 

DGreenwood

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I don’t think the list is age-adjusted so being a year younger shouldn’t matter. One can debate who will end up better, but Tatum is a better overall player right now.
I don't really understand the criteria of the list; is it supposed to be for players who you THINK are going to be the best/people you would want to start a franchise with; or is it for players based on their skill level right now?

For instance; I certainly think John Collins is a better player today than Jalen Green, so perhaps it's based on potential and less on current effectiveness. But I also think that I'd much rather have Evan Mobley than Brandon Ingram if I was starting a franchise. So which is it?

The list is about potential, not how good they are right now. From the article:
ESPN NBA Insiders Bobby Marks, Kevin Pelton and Mike Schmitz are ranking their top 25 under 25 based on future potential...
 

Kliq

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The list is about potential, not how good they are right now. From the article:
So I understand they had an idea; I just don't think everyone followed it. I guess it's possible to think that Ingram has a higher ceiling than the players beneath him; but he seems pretty close to being a finished product as a borderline-All-Star guy.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
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Also, Luka over Tatum? With this defense? I don't think so.
you make it sound like he's Trae or Mitchell. He's not particularly bad on defense, he's great on offense can carry a ridiculous load and he's a year younger than Tatum, he's one of the only guys that it's reasonable to put over Tatum
 

lovegtm

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you make it sound like he's Trae or Mitchell. He's not particularly bad on defense, he's great on offense can carry a ridiculous load and he's a year younger than Tatum, he's one of the only guys that it's reasonable to put over Tatum
He might mean with Tatum's defense. Luka is fine defensively, better than I thought he'd be, and can clearly be a supporting piece on a good defense.

But at a certain point, after what we've seen against the Nets, you have to start giving Tatum credit for being one of the better perimeter+help defenders in the game (when he fully turns it on, as he seems able to do in the playoffs.)

We tend to use defense as just a tiebreaker in these rankings, but when you're as good at it as Tatum is, it needs to be more than that.
 

nighthob

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Dallas takes takes pains to hide Doncic on defense to minimize his impact. Boston takes pains to unleash Tatum on the other team’s best wing. The two aren’t comparable on that end of the floor.
 

lovegtm

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Dallas takes takes pains to hide Doncic on defense to minimize his impact. Boston takes pains to unleash Tatum on the other team’s best wing. The two aren’t comparable on that end of the floor.
It's also far from obvious that Tatum is much behind Luka offensively, with the passing level-up he's made this year.

People are biased against Tatum in rankings because his career had a strange trajectory relative to that of a lot of stars, so the narratives about what he is good at haven't caught up.
 

ragnarok725

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He might mean with Tatum's defense. Luka is fine defensively, better than I thought he'd be, and can clearly be a supporting piece on a good defense.

But at a certain point, after what we've seen against the Nets, you have to start giving Tatum credit for being one of the better perimeter+help defenders in the game (when he fully turns it on, as he seems able to do in the playoffs.)

We tend to use defense as just a tiebreaker in these rankings, but when you're as good at it as Tatum is, it needs to be more than that.
Kawhi and Giannis are the two superstars who get meaningful rating recognition bumps from their defense. I think Tatum needs to join them on that list if he keeps up this play in the playoffs.
 

benhogan

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disclaimer: there are many adv metrics to look at a player's skill/impact (on both sides of the floor). BUT I'm always surprised that the NBA media will cite +/- over the course of a game or a week and then completely ignore it over multiple seasons.

Over five seasons, Tatum's worst on-off season (+4.6) is still better than Luka's best on-off season (+3.0), by a large margin. That's not the end-all, but does tell you something. AND its not like the Celtics roster is packed full of chumps that would alter that stat.

When Tatum is on the floor he is a massive game-changer for the Celtics and its only getting more extreme.
.
 

Ed Hillel

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you make it sound like he's Trae or Mitchell. He's not particularly bad on defense, he's great on offense can carry a ridiculous load and he's a year younger than Tatum, he's one of the only guys that it's reasonable to put over Tatum
I did mean Tatum’s, but really I suppose is just the delta between Tatum’s and Luka’s. I find it very difficult to argue Luka is a better player when you look at their entire games.
 

lovegtm

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disclaimer: there are many adv metrics to look at a player's skill/impact (on both sides of the floor). BUT I'm always surprised that the NBA media will cite +/- over the course of a game or a week and then completely ignore it over multiple seasons.

Over five seasons, Tatum's worst on-off season (+4.6) is still better than Luka's best on-off season (+3.0), by a large margin. That's not the end-all, but does tell you something. AND its not like the Celtics roster is packed full of chumps that would alter that stat.

When Tatum is on the floor he is a massive game-changer for the Celtics and its only getting more extreme.
.
Aside from the covid period, Tatum's on-off has been insane for awhile. I think DARKO has him better than Luka on offense.

It would be one thing if that was crazy and didn't match the eye test, but he looks great out there.

The only thing you can really ding him for vs Luka is raw assist numbers. However the way assists are scored is very biased towards PGs, since they get a few cheapies a game just from dumping the ball in.

Honestly, I think Luka over Tatum is the contrarian position that requires justification.
 

Jimbodandy

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Aside from the covid period, Tatum's on-off has been insane for awhile. I think DARKO has him better than Luka on offense.

It would be one thing if that was crazy and didn't match the eye test, but he looks great out there.

The only thing you can really ding him for vs Luka is raw assist numbers. However the way assists are scored is very biased towards PGs, since they get a few cheapies a game just from dumping the ball in.

Honestly, I think Luka over Tatum is the contrarian position that requires justification.
This.
 

nighthob

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It's also far from obvious that Tatum is much behind Luka offensively, with the passing level-up he's made this year.
I mean the blitz data that someone posted a couple of weeks ago make it clear that NBA coaches consider him better than Luka offensively. I’m with you, if someone thinks that Doncic’s better, they better come armed with data.
 

Cellar-Door

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I mean the blitz data that someone posted a couple of weeks ago make it clear that NBA coaches consider him better than Luka offensively. I’m with you, if someone thinks that Doncic’s better, they better come armed with data.
In a future projecting it's quite reasonable. LEBRON had them as similar players outside this year, with Luka as the significantly better offensive player the 3 years before this one. DARKO had him well ahead through game 200, a bit behind after, by age he was ahead until age 22, slumped, then came back late to be around even (DARKO likes his offense a lot more throughout). RAPTOR has Luka as the better offensive player throughout, but Tatum the better overall this year.

That's to me a fair assessment. Tatum had a better year this year, Luka is younger and was better in previous years.

Blitz data tells you very little other than that coaches would rather Tatum pass. You blitz guys you think won't hurt you with their passing, a big part of Tatum's improvement is that he can punish the blitz better now.