Tottenham Hotspur 2019-20: Jose can you see?

Zososoxfan

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All fair points--the Coutinho sale gave Liverpool the ability to do a lot of things and they spent that kitty very wisely.

Most of you know Spurs' recent history better than me, so maybe you can help determine if there is something though to the Podcast's argument about Spurs not wanting to move on from the golden era cycle. If so, I think it follows that this decision led in part to the current decline/malaise (injuries to Kane and Dier and other factors are also relevant) and it's very apparent that the Summer of 2018 was the inflection point. The reason I've homed in on Summer 18 is because Spurs were clearly going for it in 17-18 and had a great season by most metrics, and the performance really fell off in the back half of last season (18-19). So with the caveat that having hindsight is 20-20, it's pretty clear that Summer 2018 was the genesis of the current slide.

Taking a quick step back to Summer 2017, the club tried to keep their best players and the only major loss was Walker. The club did well to get 20M each (!) for Wimmer (Stoke) and Bentaleb (Schalke), and potentially could've done better with Fazio (Roma - only 3M). The club also invested very heavily that summer and into the season, by bringing in Dav from Ajax (40M (!!)), Moura from PSG (29M - ugh), Serge from PSG (25M - quadruple ALL CAPS UGHHHHHH), Llorente (15M), and Foyth (13M). Net -18M on the transfer year.

Back to Summer 18: No notable acquisitions, and the only notable sale was Dembele (5M). That's it. The club rolled the dice that the band was going to kill it in 18-19 (and it almost did on a fortunate run to the UCL Final), but keeping Eriksen, Rose, Lamela, Dele, Toby, Jan, Trippier, Kane, Wanyama, Dier, Sissoko, and Kane to a degree seems insane with hindsight. Going off memory and probability, it's likely that Lamela and Dier were both injured to some degree and that was depressing their value. But not turning over at least part of the squad at that point set the club back substantially.

One other relevant point in this discussion (also raised on the podcast) is the stadium and its financing. More specifically, the Pod noted how Arsenal stopped investing as much in the squad when they were renovating the stadium and it's not clear if that will help the club long term. Kroenke is also the worst kind of owner, but whether ENIC is any better is a scary thought. I don't know enough to say one way or the other.

I've rambled and there's a lot of different things to look at here, but I think there's definitely fair criticisms to be made of Poch for not realizing he had to turn over this squad and Levy for not recognizing the importance of the same for financial reasons.
 

slamminsammya

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All fair points--the Coutinho sale gave Liverpool the ability to do a lot of things and they spent that kitty very wisely.

Most of you know Spurs' recent history better than me, so maybe you can help determine if there is something though to the Podcast's argument about Spurs not wanting to move on from the golden era cycle. If so, I think it follows that this decision led in part to the current decline/malaise (injuries to Kane and Dier and other factors are also relevant) and it's very apparent that the Summer of 2018 was the inflection point. The reason I've homed in on Summer 18 is because Spurs were clearly going for it in 17-18 and had a great season by most metrics, and the performance really fell off in the back half of last season (18-19). So with the caveat that having hindsight is 20-20, it's pretty clear that Summer 2018 was the genesis of the current slide.

Taking a quick step back to Summer 2017, the club tried to keep their best players and the only major loss was Walker. The club did well to get 20M each (!) for Wimmer (Stoke) and Bentaleb (Schalke), and potentially could've done better with Fazio (Roma - only 3M). The club also invested very heavily that summer and into the season, by bringing in Dav from Ajax (40M (!!)), Moura from PSG (29M - ugh), Serge from PSG (25M - quadruple ALL CAPS UGHHHHHH), Llorente (15M), and Foyth (13M). Net -18M on the transfer year.

Back to Summer 18: No notable acquisitions, and the only notable sale was Dembele (5M). That's it. The club rolled the dice that the band was going to kill it in 18-19 (and it almost did on a fortunate run to the UCL Final), but keeping Eriksen, Rose, Lamela, Dele, Toby, Jan, Trippier, Kane, Wanyama, Dier, Sissoko, and Kane to a degree seems insane with hindsight. Going off memory and probability, it's likely that Lamela and Dier were both injured to some degree and that was depressing their value. But not turning over at least part of the squad at that point set the club back substantially.

One other relevant point in this discussion (also raised on the podcast) is the stadium and its financing. More specifically, the Pod noted how Arsenal stopped investing as much in the squad when they were renovating the stadium and it's not clear if that will help the club long term. Kroenke is also the worst kind of owner, but whether ENIC is any better is a scary thought. I don't know enough to say one way or the other.

I've rambled and there's a lot of different things to look at here, but I think there's definitely fair criticisms to be made of Poch for not realizing he had to turn over this squad and Levy for not recognizing the importance of the same for financial reasons.
If there is one thing I've learned from Football Manager, it's that considering net transfer spend doesn't tell you a whole lot, since you must also consider wages and sign on bonuses. What was the net wage impact of the summer you've focused in on? Are those numbers available?
 

67YAZ

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I don't think anyone here has mentioned the new White Hart Lane, which surely impacted budgets (maybe still does?). Moreso than the Countinho windfall, FSG benefitted from getting a great deal when acquiring Liverpool and then made a seemingly wise decision to continually upgrade sections of Anfield instead of seeking a whole new stadium. This dynamic might flip in the future - WHL comes a massive revenue generator and Anfield hits its limits, but the past 5 years have definitely been shaped by these projects.
 

teddykgb

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Liverpool also were allowed to fail FFP without punishment. But realistically the story of Liverpool is their gems at FB. By finding two stars at their position purchased for little or no money they were able to spend big in other places. They also purchased Gomez cheap and have been able to use him as a top level CB and FB. Meanwhile everyone else in Europe has been dropping all kinds of transfer fees trying to find good fullbacks. If they had dropped a hundred million on these other defenders they probably couldn’t have done both Alisson and VVD even with the bottomless pit of Coutinho money.

Spurs just had bad luck that their young English player’s didn’t make the same leap. Dele didn’t blossom and struggled with injuries and Kane has been injured non stop. Once you’re forced into the transfer market just to maintain your quality you’re probably falling behind especially in a FFP world
 

coremiller

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All fair points--the Coutinho sale gave Liverpool the ability to do a lot of things and they spent that kitty very wisely.

Most of you know Spurs' recent history better than me, so maybe you can help determine if there is something though to the Podcast's argument about Spurs not wanting to move on from the golden era cycle. If so, I think it follows that this decision led in part to the current decline/malaise (injuries to Kane and Dier and other factors are also relevant) and it's very apparent that the Summer of 2018 was the inflection point. The reason I've homed in on Summer 18 is because Spurs were clearly going for it in 17-18 and had a great season by most metrics, and the performance really fell off in the back half of last season (18-19). So with the caveat that having hindsight is 20-20, it's pretty clear that Summer 2018 was the genesis of the current slide.

Taking a quick step back to Summer 2017, the club tried to keep their best players and the only major loss was Walker. The club did well to get 20M each (!) for Wimmer (Stoke) and Bentaleb (Schalke), and potentially could've done better with Fazio (Roma - only 3M). The club also invested very heavily that summer and into the season, by bringing in Dav from Ajax (40M (!!)), Moura from PSG (29M - ugh), Serge from PSG (25M - quadruple ALL CAPS UGHHHHHH), Llorente (15M), and Foyth (13M). Net -18M on the transfer year.

Back to Summer 18: No notable acquisitions, and the only notable sale was Dembele (5M). That's it. The club rolled the dice that the band was going to kill it in 18-19 (and it almost did on a fortunate run to the UCL Final), but keeping Eriksen, Rose, Lamela, Dele, Toby, Jan, Trippier, Kane, Wanyama, Dier, Sissoko, and Kane to a degree seems insane with hindsight. Going off memory and probability, it's likely that Lamela and Dier were both injured to some degree and that was depressing their value. But not turning over at least part of the squad at that point set the club back substantially.

One other relevant point in this discussion (also raised on the podcast) is the stadium and its financing. More specifically, the Pod noted how Arsenal stopped investing as much in the squad when they were renovating the stadium and it's not clear if that will help the club long term. Kroenke is also the worst kind of owner, but whether ENIC is any better is a scary thought. I don't know enough to say one way or the other.

I've rambled and there's a lot of different things to look at here, but I think there's definitely fair criticisms to be made of Poch for not realizing he had to turn over this squad and Levy for not recognizing the importance of the same for financial reasons.
To be fair to Poch, supposedly he did realize the squad needed refreshing and he was very frustrated with Spurs' transfer business in 2018-19. Apparently part of the problem was that Levy insists on controlling all transfer business himself, but all his attention was consumed by the stadium construction, so Spurs couldn't get any deals done.
 

Kliq

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I don't really like the LP/Spurs comparison based on philosophy, because while you could argue that the clubs were in a similar position two years ago, so much has changed that I don't think it is just philosophical differences, or how they spent their money that led to changes.

For starters, for whatever reason, things went south between Poch and Spurs really, really fast and he was quickly dismissed, something that was unthinkable at the start of the 2018/19 season. Then they brought in Jose whose relationship with the team is tedious at best and stands to grow worse as the bad results pile up. Liverpool has had the same manager the entire time and is beloved by everyone, especially his players.

Perhaps that is the key link, because LFC has seen remarkably good player development over that time span, but Spurs have been remarkably worse. I think over the last two seasons, Son is better than he was then and so is Harry Winks. Everyone else is either worse or the same. I'd argue that for Liverpool, Mane took a leap forward (probably similar in terms of gains to Son), Robertson and TAA, two cheap FBs as Teddy points out, took massive leaps forward. Throw in clear upgrades via transfers at CB, GK and CM, and Liverpool is just a much better team than they were two years ago.

Kane is worse than he was two years ago, probably do to injuries. Toby and Jan are worse than they were two years ago. Downgrades at FB, or at least depreciation at FB, have been massive. Dele should be a world class player but is much worse/injury prone than he was two years ago. They lost Eriksen and haven't replaced him. Lamela is worse than he was two years ago. Sissoko is better, but I'm assuming it was really just because he was dreadful and injured when he first got here, but eventually turned into the player Spurs expected when he was bought.

I know Trippier was a flawed player and he took a lot of shit because he wasn't that quick and struggled to play defense, but the downgrade in service from him to Aurier is a huge reason why this team doesn't score like they used too.
 

Zososoxfan

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[snip]

I know Trippier was a flawed player and he took a lot of shit because he wasn't that quick and struggled to play defense, but the downgrade in service from him to Aurier is a huge reason why this team doesn't score like they used too.
I shit on Trippier a lot when he was here, but I was oh so wrong about the drop off from him to Serge. Granted, I still don't think Trippier is all that good, but Serge has been terrible and Tripper is certainly at least above average in the EPL.
 

coremiller

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I shit on Trippier a lot when he was here, but I was oh so wrong about the drop off from him to Serge. Granted, I still don't think Trippier is all that good, but Serge has been terrible and Tripper is certainly at least above average in the EPL.
Yeah, getting rid of Trippier wasn't the problem, it was not buying a replacement. Even if during the summer Spurs thought Foyth or KWP could grow into the role, by January it was clear that wasn't happening.
 

Kliq

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Getting rid of Trippier and Eriksen also created a void when it came to free kicks. Kane has been taking most of them and he is really bad at them. I assume he must be good in practice, or maybe it is in an ego thing, but he let Eriksen take them all the time. Last few games Spurs have had some juicy free kick chances but haven't even come close. Eriksen and Trippier were both really good set piece takers, both at delivering the ball and in taking shots, and a team as big as Tottenham should have a bunch of different good options to take each kick.
 

teddykgb

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Because they missed out on European play that season, so they didn’t have to submit accounts for review. Typical City fan.
They were eventually reviewed when Liverpool again qualified but they successfully argued that costs for Stanley Park were able to be excluded. This is the Spurs thread so I’m not interested in dragging it down on what was a bit of accounting permissiveness—my point in raising it is that a team like Spurs may end up better served falling out of CL and using that time to invest as remaking your squad is very difficult while trying to remain compliant. A year out can serve as a very useful reset if your overall revenue streams are strong.
 

DJnVa

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Lamela and Lucas are both useful subs. Neither should ever start (or at least play 90).
Today was awful. Everton match was awful. Sunday is terrifying, but our only hope for spirit.
After that, like Zsf says, play Skipp, Cirkin, Sessegnon and Tanganga. Lo Celso and Ndombele in every match.
This is painful to watch.
Tanganga is out until next season.

With no Europe next year, they have no excuses.
 

Kliq

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I thought today was very frustrating for large portions of the game, but ultimately beating Arsenal and remaining in contention for Europe make it a good day.

The team is clearly at its best with Toby Alderweireld on the field. He is their best defender by a country mile it was crazy that he hasn't been a fixture in every game since the restart. Not only is he the best defender, his long balls over the top of the defense add some much needed creativity on offense. Spurs were a bit fortunate that PEA had an off day and missed some chances, but the one Arsenal goal was a screamer from Lacazette, but everything else was kept in check.

Not much new to say about Aurier other than that today was a typical performance.

I feel like Spurs offensively are getting overlooked in favor of discussing Arsenal's disastrous defense, and while that certainly was a factor, overall I thought the team performed much better than against Bournemouth, which is a very low bar. Going from 0 shots on target to 9 is a solid improvement, and Spurs could have easily scored like 4 goals if it wasn't for an outstanding game by Martinez between the posts.

Lucas had a really good game, he worked really hard on both ends and made some key defensive plays. Even if his dribbling can be maddening, his skill and tenacity, along with his pace, are needed and his conditioning since the restart has been outstanding.

Kane probably should have scored today, but he looked better than against Bournemouth which is again, a low bar. He still seems very frustrated at the lack of service and I can't blame him.

GLC-Sissoko-Winks are not a clear midfield pairing. GLC has shown decent ability and has some clear skill on the ball, but I have found his passing and vision lacking since the restart. He'll get plenty of chances though, especially if Dele remains out.

Jose's lack of substitutions was baffling. Especially around the 70 minute mark, when it was clear Spurs were tiring and Arsenal was dominating possession; yet Mourinho did nothing despite plenty of available talent on the bench. Then they scrape together a goal off a set piece and he made some of those changes, but it wasn't very fun up until that point.

Spurs finish with Newcastle, Leicester and Crystal Palace. I have no idea how many points they can expect to get out of that, but a strong finish would be really promising.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Not much new to say about Aurier other than that today was a typical performance.
Lucas had a really good game, he worked really hard on both ends and made some key defensive plays. Even if his dribbling can be maddening, his skill and tenacity, along with his pace, are needed and his conditioning since the restart has been outstanding.
On the Serge point, yes time to move on.
On the Lucas point, agree, I found him especially threatening and combative today.

Something I read on social media (haven't verified), but seems to pass muster
Lucas Moura
made 10 (TEN) tackles against Arsenal, the most any Tottenham Hotspur player has made in a Premier League game across the past four seasons.
Lucas Moura made as many tackles in the NLD
1️⃣
0️⃣
as the whole Arsenal team in today’s game
 

Zososoxfan

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I thought today was very frustrating for large portions of the game, but ultimately beating Arsenal and remaining in contention for Europe make it a good day.

The team is clearly at its best with Toby Alderweireld on the field. He is their best defender by a country mile it was crazy that he hasn't been a fixture in every game since the restart. Not only is he the best defender, his long balls over the top of the defense add some much needed creativity on offense. Spurs were a bit fortunate that PEA had an off day and missed some chances, but the one Arsenal goal was a screamer from Lacazette, but everything else was kept in check.

Not much new to say about Aurier other than that today was a typical performance.

I feel like Spurs offensively are getting overlooked in favor of discussing Arsenal's disastrous defense, and while that certainly was a factor, overall I thought the team performed much better than against Bournemouth, which is a very low bar. Going from 0 shots on target to 9 is a solid improvement, and Spurs could have easily scored like 4 goals if it wasn't for an outstanding game by Martinez between the posts.

Lucas had a really good game, he worked really hard on both ends and made some key defensive plays. Even if his dribbling can be maddening, his skill and tenacity, along with his pace, are needed and his conditioning since the restart has been outstanding.

Kane probably should have scored today, but he looked better than against Bournemouth which is again, a low bar. He still seems very frustrated at the lack of service and I can't blame him.

GLC-Sissoko-Winks are not a clear midfield pairing. GLC has shown decent ability and has some clear skill on the ball, but I have found his passing and vision lacking since the restart. He'll get plenty of chances though, especially if Dele remains out.

Jose's lack of substitutions was baffling. Especially around the 70 minute mark, when it was clear Spurs were tiring and Arsenal was dominating possession; yet Mourinho did nothing despite plenty of available talent on the bench. Then they scrape together a goal off a set piece and he made some of those changes, but it wasn't very fun up until that point.

Spurs finish with Newcastle, Leicester and Crystal Palace. I have no idea how many points they can expect to get out of that, but a strong finish would be really promising.
The headline is absolutely right. Despite what has not been a fun month or two, winning today in a match that matters feels good. However, I'm still pretty discouraged by the overall team performance. As you said, the MF 3 that played is not good. It's better than some of the other lineups Jose's trotted out and it can be a good decision depending on the opponent/setup, but Winks just isn't good enough at the moment. Combine that with GLC and Sissoko looking totally gassed and Tanguy twiddling his thumbs on the bench and it's infuriating. Glad that Skipp got some minutes. But Arsenal created many chances today and Auba buries that chance more often than not. He was not on his game today.

The FBs remain shitty (but my word what a shot by Davies), and Kane and Son both had bad games by their standards, although Son's finish was class. I like Lucas and think he's a great guy to have to play against weaker sides like Arsenal (gigglesnort). But in all seriousness, I don't think the scoreline was representative of the match. I thought Arsenal were slightly better today but their CBs are not only bad, but basically a huge negative since it seems like they giveaway at least one goal every match. The set piece defending on the corner was abhorrent--Tierney on Toby??!? Toby is the best defender by a lot, so it's time to see if Toby-Dav-Dier is the rotation of the future with Tang rotating in there and FB.

Aurier’s brother was found shot this morning in Toulouse. Absolutely awful.
Fuck, that's terrible.
 

coremiller

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I disagree, i think Spurs played pretty well yesterday, easily their best performance in months. Arsenal were poor defensively and a better team would have ripped the Gunners to shreds, but except for a 10-15 spurt early in the second half leading to Auba's shot off the cross bar, Spurs did an excellent job of limiting Arsenal's attacking chances while exposing Arsenal's defensive weaknesses. Spurs were consistently dangerous on the counter, regularly getting runners/numbers in space attacking the penalty area, but a combo of poor finishing, good goalkeeping, and terrible on-ball decision-making they didn't get goals out of those chances.

The big story today though was how well the team played defensively. Toby in particular was fantastic, but the whole team did very well at preventing Arsenal from converting possession into chances.

The team effort and commitment was also at a level we haven't seen in a while. Maybe because it was the derby, but all of the attackers helped out defensively and kept the shape, everyone ran themselves into the ground, and it showed.

This was really a classic Mourinho performance.
 

DJnVa

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So with Man City NOT getting banned, this is what Spurs need to make it to Europe:

Champions League: Not going to happen.
Europa League: Root for Chelsea and Man City to FA Cup and that would get top 7 to Europa (right?). Right now Spurs are 2 back of Sheffield (that loss might kill them) and 3 back of Wolves.

Spurs (+9 GD): Newcastle, Leicester, Crystal Palace. Leicester is now in danger of missing out on CL and this game will be meaningful to them.
Wolves (+11 GD): Burnley, Crystal Palace, Chelsea
Sheffield (+5): Leicester, Everton, Southampton

I would think 9 points would do it, but it's the Spurs, and there's NO WAY we can count on that. If it comes down to the last game, that has chance to be a gut punch of a day.
 

veritas

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Looking at next year, the back line needs some serious help. As others have mentioned, the fullbacks are bad and their best defender (Toby) seems like he's not coming back. They're clearly broke so I don't see them acquiring an impact player at either position.

It's not what Mourinho does, but this team really seems better suited to a back three. They have a bunch of decent CBs who are mostly good on the ball and can step into midfield, even ignoring Toby. And a bunch of players who are capable wingbacks. Aurier is awful but can be valuable if he doesn't have to defend much. Sessegnon is a wingback. Sissoko is more than capable. I think Lucas could be very effective there. And I think it's a lot easier and cheaper to find someone to play that role than to find a traditional fullback. It's also not *that* different from the super unbalanced 4-4-2 they've been playing with a lot since Mourinho took over.
 

coremiller

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Looking at next year, the back line needs some serious help. As others have mentioned, the fullbacks are bad and their best defender (Toby) seems like he's not coming back. They're clearly broke so I don't see them acquiring an impact player at either position.

It's not what Mourinho does, but this team really seems better suited to a back three. They have a bunch of decent CBs who are mostly good on the ball and can step into midfield, even ignoring Toby. And a bunch of players who are capable wingbacks. Aurier is awful but can be valuable if he doesn't have to defend much. Sessegnon is a wingback. Sissoko is more than capable. I think Lucas could be very effective there. And I think it's a lot easier and cheaper to find someone to play that role than to find a traditional fullback. It's also not *that* different from the super unbalanced 4-4-2 they've been playing with a lot since Mourinho took over.
Toby signed a new contract in December through 2023, so he'll be around. I think Alderwerield/Sanchez is a quality CB pair, Sanchez generally seems to be much better with a calm/steady organizer type next to him like Vertonghen or Alderweireld. I'm not a big Dier fan as a first XI guy but he's a quality squad option.

I think if they improve the FBs they defense could be solid. As bad as the team has been the last 12-18 months or so, there's still a lot of talent here and with the right tweaks this could still be a really good team. It's part of what's made this season so frustrating.
 

Zososoxfan

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Toby signed a new contract in December through 2023, so he'll be around. I think Alderwerield/Sanchez is a quality CB pair, Sanchez generally seems to be much better with a calm/steady organizer type next to him like Vertonghen or Alderweireld. I'm not a big Dier fan as a first XI guy but he's a quality squad option.

I think if they improve the FBs they defense could be solid. As bad as the team has been the last 12-18 months or so, there's still a lot of talent here and with the right tweaks this could still be a really good team. It's part of what's made this season so frustrating.
I have many issues with Jose, but I did like that he was trying to establish some continuity and chemistry for awhile. Even if I don't like the Dier-Dav pair, he gave them several opportunities. Similarly, I think once GLC and Sissoko get some rest they will benefit from having played so much together.

As for the squad, Tang likely has a role in the rotation next year as well. However, Spurs would do well to move on from some players and invest in youth (i.e. academy, because the squad list below is actually quite young). See below:

Player Age Contract End Date (June 30th, [YEAR]) Market Value (in MM Euros) Wages (Annualized in GBP)
Dier 26 2021 $20M (lol) $3.12M
CCV 22 2021 $2M N/A
Tanganga 21 2021 $7M N/A
Serge 27 2022 $16M (lol) $3.64M
Foyth 22 2022 $14M $1.20M
Toby 31 2023 $24M $4.16M
Davies 27 2024 $18M (lol) $3.12M
Sanchez 24 2024 $48M $3.38M
Sessegnon 20 2025 $32M N/A


https://sillyseason.com/salary/tottenham-hotspur-players-salaries-69471/
 

Zososoxfan

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Looking at the free agent market for DMF, it's pretty damn bleak even for just a stopgap. The only names that interest me even at a superficial level are:

Nampalys Mendy (LCFC). Only 6 appearances this year, 28 years old. Don't know much about him, but he's almost certainly expendable provided Ndidi is still around.
Renato Tapia (Feyenoord). Peruvian 24 year old that got some decent PT in the Eredivisie this year.
Mikel San Jose (Bilbao). 31 years old, under 10 appearances in La Liga. Would he consider leaving the Basques even for just a season or 2?
Ander Iturraspe (Espanyol). 31 years old, under 10 appearances in La Liga.
Matthew Longstaff (Newcastle). 20 year old, with under 10 appearances in the Prem.

All of these guys have market values under $5M--there not only needs to be a potential starting DMF on the squad next season, but also some competition.

If WHU somehow drop, I wouldn't mind Spurs going after Declan Rice. Although he's almost certainly going to be too expensive. There's other intriguing established DMF options, but they will cost more and we'll hear about those soon enough (I hope?!?).
 

DJnVa

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Burnley equalized in 96th minute to yank back 2 points from Wolves. Spurs now 1 back of Wolves and even on GD.
 

Zososoxfan

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Looking at the table, Spurs need some help but there is a plausible path to qualify for UEL. The pertinent table (N.B. that SHU plays LCFC tomorrow - COYFoxes!!) and July date in parentheses:

Position Club Points GD Week 37 Week 38 (26)
3. Chelsea 63 +15 @Pool (22) Wolves
4. LCFC 59* +29 @Spurs (19) MAN U
5. MAN U 59* +26 WHU (21) @LCFC
6. Wolves 56 +11 Palace (20) @Chelsea
7. Spurs (COYS!!) 55 +11 LCFC (19) Palace
8. SHU 54* +5 Everton (20) @Southampton
11. Everton 45* -11 @SHU (20)
12. Southampton 45* -13 [shrug] SHU
14. Palace 42* -15 @wolves (20) @Spurs


*Indicates match in hand (35 played).

If Spurs earn 6 points against LCFC and Palace and still miss out, I will find it hard to be disappointed. That would mean SHU beat LCFC, Everton, and Southampton and/or (likely) Wolves beat Chelsea on the 26th. Very fun run to the finish here.
 

coremiller

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As long as Arsenal don't win the FA Cup, 7th place will get a Europa League spot, because the other three teams left in the FA Cup (City, Utd, Chelsea) will all qualify for Europe through the league.
 

Zososoxfan

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As long as Arsenal don't win the FA Cup, 7th place will get a Europa League spot, because the other three teams left in the FA Cup (City, Utd, Chelsea) will all qualify for Europe through the league.
Oh god, I have to watch the FA cup?!?? And potentially root for Chelsea?? Gross. But I guess that's good. I wonder how UEFA handles prize money in this case. Does the FA basically get a pool of money for its participants and everyone just gets a smaller share, or does 7th not get a participation trophy (read: prize money) since they get in on a 'technicality'.

Edit: I also now predict Spurs will finish a close 8th.
 

DJnVa

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Sheffield lost today. Spurs control their own destiny as long as Arsenal does not win the FA Cup.
 

Royal Reader

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Oh god, I have to watch the FA cup?!?? And potentially root for Chelsea?? Gross. But I guess that's good. I wonder how UEFA handles prize money in this case. Does the FA basically get a pool of money for its participants and everyone just gets a smaller share, or does 7th not get a participation trophy (read: prize money) since they get in on a 'technicality'.

Edit: I also now predict Spurs will finish a close 8th.
Well, if you think of it as rooting against Arsenal, it should be easy enough.
 

Zososoxfan

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Well, if you think of it as rooting against Arsenal, it should be easy enough.
It's somewhat pro forma. Unlike previous iterations, I really like some of Chelsea's players like PULISIC, Abraham, Kante, Pedro, and Mount. They also play exciting football. I still can't stand Alonso, Azpi, and Kepa, but that's child's play compared to the heyday of Costa, Terry, and yes, Mou.
 

Zososoxfan

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Maddison, Chilwell, Fuchs, and potentially Albrighton are out for Sunday's match. Those are big losses and with Soyuncu out as well, LCFC's depth is getting tested. Nevertheless, any side with Vardy, Barnes, Perez, Ndidi, and Tielemans will likely be formidable and LCFC have shown a lot of cohesion when I've watched them. They're also very much fighting for UCL and are going to be up for it. Should be fun, or a Spurs shitshow--ya never know with this club #COYS.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/leicester-city/story/4138651/leicester-city-face-injury-woes-ahead-of-spursmanchester-united-matches
 

Zososoxfan

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Fookin' Mourinho masterclass when we needed it most. If the intent here is really to get the most results from this current crop (Kane, Son, Lucas, Toby, Sissoko, Davies), aesthetics be damned, then Mou is probably as good as you can get. Wish we weren't in the position of relying on other results, but Wolves still need to take care of business against Palace and then will need to tangle with a soaring Chelsea squad with hopefully something to play for in MW 38. Call me petty, but I wouldn't mind Spurs finishing 7th if Arse then shit themselves in the final--not only costing them a trophy, but getting us into UEL as an indirect consequence.
 

DJnVa

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So as long as Chelsea wins at least once against Wolves or Arsenal (FA), Spurs just need to beat Crystal Palace.
 

Kliq

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Don't look now, but that is three straight wins for Spurs and Jose, with a healthy 8-2 goal ratio. A little bit of help and they will be playing European Football next season, which would be a pleasant surprise after the Sheffield loss.

Earlier upthread there was speculation that Kane lacked the burst to get into the play and make key runs the way he used too, but he seems to have recovered mostly from his injury and returned to form this week, scoring four classic Kane goals, and making some great runs and covering a lot of ground, especially the first goal today. Son has also been in good form, and they seem to be playing more a dual-striker lineup, and the difference in skills between Kane and Son can compliment each other nicely. Kane can drop further back and hold up play and has good vision to try and find Son on the break. Kane's ball to Son that led to the first goal was (chef's kiss).

Moura, or Lamela or Bergwijn, is being used further back, and Moura has been playing a lot of good defense on the wing under Jose.

One thing they didn't do much of over the last two games is run Aurier down the wing a million times and ask him to cross the ball in. Instead they settled for balls coming in from the corner of the 18-yard box, which come in at more of an angle and make it easier for Kane to get free for a header, as opposed to passing the ball down to Aurier, have him run towards the touch line and then try and cut the cross back into a crowded box. They have also been killing it on the counter attack, and Leicester were thin at CB today and Spurs really punished them for it.

In that same vein, Aurier and Davies have been more traditional FBs the last two games, and Aurier today I thought was pretty good defensively, by his standards.Davies is unheralded and perhaps not a starting-caliber player for a team with Tottenham's aspirations, but I think he has been pretty solid since the restart, and a lot has been asked of him.

I wish we saw more of Gedson, Sessegnon and Skipp, just to get an idea of what we have there with those young guys. Almost no EPL run from them this year.

The team really needs Dele back, or just a real CAM that can make key passes and pick out the Sons and Lucas' on the wing, as well as Kane in the middle. Spurs still lack creativity when they get the ball in the attacking third and the game slows down. They really miss Eriksen and a healthy Dele to have that kind of vision.

Hugo has been the team's best player since the restart and has made a few key stops in almost every game. He is world class.
 

Zososoxfan

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Don't look now, but that is three straight wins for Spurs and Jose, with a healthy 8-2 goal ratio. A little bit of help and they will be playing European Football next season, which would be a pleasant surprise after the Sheffield loss.

Earlier upthread there was speculation that Kane lacked the burst to get into the play and make key runs the way he used too, but he seems to have recovered mostly from his injury and returned to form this week, scoring four classic Kane goals, and making some great runs and covering a lot of ground, especially the first goal today. Son has also been in good form, and they seem to be playing more a dual-striker lineup, and the difference in skills between Kane and Son can compliment each other nicely. Kane can drop further back and hold up play and has good vision to try and find Son on the break. Kane's ball to Son that led to the first goal was (chef's kiss).

Moura, or Lamela or Bergwijn, is being used further back, and Moura has been playing a lot of good defense on the wing under Jose.

One thing they didn't do much of over the last two games is run Aurier down the wing a million times and ask him to cross the ball in. Instead they settled for balls coming in from the corner of the 18-yard box, which come in at more of an angle and make it easier for Kane to get free for a header, as opposed to passing the ball down to Aurier, have him run towards the touch line and then try and cut the cross back into a crowded box. They have also been killing it on the counter attack, and Leicester were thin at CB today and Spurs really punished them for it.

In that same vein, Aurier and Davies have been more traditional FBs the last two games, and Aurier today I thought was pretty good defensively, by his standards.Davies is unheralded and perhaps not a starting-caliber player for a team with Tottenham's aspirations, but I think he has been pretty solid since the restart, and a lot has been asked of him.

I wish we saw more of Gedson, Sessegnon and Skipp, just to get an idea of what we have there with those young guys. Almost no EPL run from them this year.

The team really needs Dele back, or just a real CAM that can make key passes and pick out the Sons and Lucas' on the wing, as well as Kane in the middle. Spurs still lack creativity when they get the ball in the attacking third and the game slows down. They really miss Eriksen and a healthy Dele to have that kind of vision.

Hugo has been the team's best player since the restart and has made a few key stops in almost every game. He is world class.
While the results are encouraging, I'd still like to know why Mou insisted on starting Dier at CB for those few games. The team's defense has improved immensely since Toby took back his starting role.

I disagree about Lucas' D against LCFC. He was a mixed bag--some excellent D work, but also some examples of not tracking and just plain bad defending. The whole right side with Aurier, Sissoko, and Lucas was attacked mercilessly in the first half and LCFC created plenty of chances in the first half.

I agree that Dele will be needed, but not necessarily to the extent you're calling for. He will be a helpful player when playing against sides that are less open (i.e. to break down defenses as you've said), but as part of a 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 when things are even, I don't think Dele's quite as important. Lucas and GLC have been pretty damn good at starting the counters and getting the ball to Kane and Son in space.

Hugo has been immense and has been a huge part of the clean sheets recently, but I don't think he can ever be considered world class with how bad he is with his feet and how he gets a little nervy 1-2 times per match. That's just not something that happens with MATS or Allison. I'd say he's among the best in the world as a shot stopper (in the vein of Oblak), but not quite as consistent as Jan and not as well rounded as MATS or Allison.
 

DJnVa

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With some help today, Spurs could really be in a sweet spot. Big Crystal Palace fan today...

Also, it's amazing that had we beaten Sheffield, CL would still be in play. Crazy.

EDIT: If Everton grabs points in this game versus Sheffield then Spurs will finish no lower than 7th (outside some crazy GD flip).
 
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SeoulSoxFan

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If Arsenal wins the FA Cup but Wolves wins the Europa League, what happens? 8 Europe spots, 5C + 3E?
Here's the complete breakdown. Thank god it's not as complicated as figuring out WC seeds for the NFL:

https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/huts2a/the_breakdown_for_europa_as_it_stands_now/
The nutshell from the post:

Route 1 - If Wolves lose to Chelsea on the final day of the season, then their GD will be below +13. This means that all we would have to do to get Europa is secure at least a draw against Palace whom are on a seven game losing streak. This will put us above Wolves on GD.

Route 2 - If Wolves draw to Chelsea, then a win in the final game against Palace is required.

Route 3 - If Wolves win/draw against Chelsea/or if Spurs fail to win their final game against Palace, then we require Chelsea to put the Scum to the sword in the FA cup final. (This scenario only works if the Scum do not overtake Spurs in their final two games in the PL)
 

DJnVa

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So we need Chelsea to beat either the Wolves (or a draw) or Arsenal in FA Cup and with a win Spurs qualify for Europa.

That means we want Chelsea to do no better than a draw today to Liverpool, as 3 points would clinch top 3 and the Wolves game will be meaningless.
 

Zososoxfan

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Not sure what happened to the earlier posts, but @Gunfighter 09 has bingo. I think it was @DJnVa who said that the last T-Day was in 2017 (I looked it up, 30 April 2017 to be exact). The wait continues for the Gooners, although if they qualify for UEL and Spurs don't, I'd make the trade of having T-Day this year for Spurs to qualify for UEL.

Today's matches have big implications for setting up the stakes for MW 38 on Sunday. More specifically, I'm rooting for a Chelsea draw or loss to keep their UCL hopes dependent on their Wolves result. If Chelsea beat the Reds today, they'll be 4 points clear of LCFC and would be guaranteed UCL regardless of MANU's result. If Chelsea do win today, Frankie might be inclined to rest some starters for the FA Final. Although having 6 days between matches probably lessens the concerns for rest.

Edit: Beaten by mere minutes! Well played @DJnVa
 

coremiller

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I’m not sure what he could be talking about, certainly nothing important.
I strongly disagree with this approach. What's the point of having a bitter rival if you can't rub it in their faces when you finish above them? Part of the fun of sports fandom is harmless petty banter nonsense like this. It was clever trolling by gooners to invent their dumb holiday in the first place when they finished above Spurs for a billion years in a row but now that the tables have turned they should have to eat it.

Four more years! Four more years!
 

Zososoxfan

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I strongly disagree with this approach. What's the point of having a bitter rival if you can't rub it in their faces when you finish above them? Part of the fun of sports fandom is harmless petty banter nonsense like this. It was clever trolling by gooners to invent their dumb holiday in the first place when they finished above Spurs for a billion years in a row but now that the tables have turned they should have to eat it.

Four more years! Four more years!
+1. Gooners came up with a good jab, and Spurs have countered with a series of dong punches, although a snappier retort is needed. Even in a shite EPL year for both clubs, our club is slightly less shitty and a top 6 finish would be a nice consolation prize in the season that marked the ignominious end of the Poch era.
 

Gunfighter 09

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I think not acknowledging their fake holiday is much better than matching the pettiness. Tottenham should have much bigger goals than being better than Stan Kroenke’s least favorite plaything.

That’s not to say I didn’t text my brother and friends who root for the other North London team to ask them how their day was going yesterday, but a team worthy of the things Spurs want to achieve is happy to beat their rival, always wants to finish above them, but doesn’t let it define them.