Trade deadline

Red(s)HawksFan

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Re: Sale

Is he going to be fully stretched out when he comes or are we looking at a bunch of 5 IP starts for a few turns?
They've stated repeatedly that he's not done with rehab until his pitch count is above 80, so yes, in the context of today's starting pitchers, he's going to be stretched out when he comes back. His first couple starts back will probably be an 85-90 pitch limit, then probably 100ish. How deep he gets into a game will be determined by how efficient he is, just like any other pitcher.

There are only four pitchers in MLB who are averaging more than 100 pitches per start: Bauer, Bieber, Wheeler, and Cole. There are only another 20 that average 94 pitches or more.

FWIW, Pivetta averages 96 pitches per start, Eovaldi 92, then Richards and ERod at 87.
 

Detts

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If Sale isn’t 80+% of his former self and EDro doesn’t figure shit out, none of this matters. It seems likely that Chaim knows that, knows that it is a pretty big bet, and therefore did not want to mortgage top 10 propsects in a rebuilding system when the team needs everything to go right to be legit WS contenders.
I don’t mean this in a bad way….Edro had
Myocarditis. It is no freaking joke. It wasn’t his fault.

COVID messed him up big time.
 

Detts

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I mean, it’s always nice to go into the postseason feeling like you’re a clear favorite but if the playoffs started today, would the Sox - even without Sale and Schwarber - really be that big of an underdog? I get the 1B and the rotation are weak spots, but people seem to be forgetting that they’ve managed to acquire the second best record in the AL even with those weak spots.
Post of the day
 

Detts

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Yup. Schwarber deal turned the tide for me. He could easily be a top 3-4 deadline bat down the stretch. His June run was about as good as it gets. Just have to hope he can get his timing back (and health).
AND THE SOX GOT HIM FOR NOTHING.
 

World's Fair

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It's the lack of a first baseman that bothers me. I think it's possible they really did have their eyes on Scherzer, but the price was too high and they couldn't match it. Short of that there wasn't any pitching that really attracted them.

I'm very frustrated that we're looking at another 60 games of Dalbec at first. The guy is an automatic out, and it seems impossible there weren't players out there that could have been acquired
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It's the lack of a first baseman that bothers me. I think it's possible they really did have their eyes on Scherzer, but the price was too high and they couldn't match it. Short of that there wasn't any pitching that really attracted them.

I'm very frustrated that we're looking at another 60 games of Dalbec at first. The guy is an automatic out, and it seems impossible there weren't players out there that could have been acquired
We're not, though. Franchy's going to get some of those starts. It sounds like Schwarber is going to get a chance as well. Maybe they try Arroyo again there. Maybe Gonzalez finds his stroke on the IL. What it won't be is 58 more games of Dalbec.
 

BigSoxFan

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It's the lack of a first baseman that bothers me. I think it's possible they really did have their eyes on Scherzer, but the price was too high and they couldn't match it. Short of that there wasn't any pitching that really attracted them.

I'm very frustrated that we're looking at another 60 games of Dalbec at first. The guy is an automatic out, and it seems impossible there weren't players out there that could have been acquired
Dalbec won’t be the 1B. He’s done. I think we can confidently say someone else will be starting there come playoff time. No idea who but it won’t be him for much longer.
 

RG33

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It's the lack of a first baseman that bothers me. I think it's possible they really did have their eyes on Scherzer, but the price was too high and they couldn't match it. Short of that there wasn't any pitching that really attracted them.

I'm very frustrated that we're looking at another 60 games of Dalbec at first. The guy is an automatic out, and it seems impossible there weren't players out there that could have been acquired
Did you miss the part earlier where the President of Baseball Operations said they were going to play Schwarber at 1st base and to “not count him out” ?

They weighed the options. And felt Schwarber was the best option/value. It was a choice. It may not be correct, but it was the decision they made. Dalbec will not be at 1st base for another 60 games.
 

MFYankees

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I'm not being lazy - Is there a stat that projects how many additional "wins" some of these trades translate to? Particularly Tampa, NYY and Toronto...

(Dodgers could be interesting also)
Since MFY and Toronto traded away mostly prospects, one thing you can try is to look at the 2021 WAR of the new player, subtract the WAR of the MLB player being replaced at the new player's position, and then divide the difference by 3 (since there's roughly a third of a season left). It's just a "finger in the wind" kind of approach, but it's something you can try.
 

Detts

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Since MFY and Toronto traded away mostly prospects, one thing you can try is to look at the 2021 WAR of the new player, subtract the WAR of the MLB player being replaced at the new player's position, and then divide the difference by 3 (since there's roughly a third of a season left). It's just a "finger in the wind" kind of approach, but it's something you can try.
Translation: it’s a crap shoot.

You can’t predict injury.
 

cornwalls@6

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It's the lack of a first baseman that bothers me. I think it's possible they really did have their eyes on Scherzer, but the price was too high and they couldn't match it. Short of that there wasn't any pitching that really attracted them.

I'm very frustrated that we're looking at another 60 games of Dalbec at first. The guy is an automatic out, and it seems impossible there weren't players out there that could have been acquired
Schoop seemed like the perfect target once Rizzo went off the board, but by all accounts it seems like Detroit wasn't interested in moving him. Can't force interest where there is none. I'm a little surprised they couldn't make Bryant happen, if they even tried, based on what SF gave up for him. Otherwise, just don't think the market for a 1B beyond Rizzo was really there. KC sitting on Santana being another example.
 

MFYankees

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Translation: it’s a crap shoot.

You can’t predict injury.
True, and I'm not a stat-head, but isn't "you can't predict injury" an equally valid response to any tool you try to use to measure talent? Is it all a crap shoot?
 

cornwalls@6

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On macro, beyond Red Sox level, what a wild, interesting, deadline this year. Kind of nice to see Baseball in the spotlight, and be the biggest sports story in the country the last couple of days.
 

YTF

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Nobody doubts his success here so far! But I'm talking about one specific part of the job, which is what this thread is about - a pressure trade deadline as a buyer. It's not something he's had to do and may have been overmatched..just my opinion.
Ever hear the expression, "Chips are power"? Bloom was short stacked. I'm very disappointed that the total result of this deadline netted Schwarber, Robles and Davis, but I get it. It was a total sellers market and most teams that sold did well. It's sort of like the housing market. Whoever thought it would be commonplace for sellers to all of a sudden find themselves getting tens of thousands of dollars over asking price? And because of this practice how many owners have been continually out priced or outbid.
 

YTF

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It's the lack of a first baseman that bothers me. I think it's possible they really did have their eyes on Scherzer, but the price was too high and they couldn't match it. Short of that there wasn't any pitching that really attracted them.

I'm very frustrated that we're looking at another 60 games of Dalbec at first. The guy is an automatic out, and it seems impossible there weren't players out there that could have been acquired
We're looking at 60 games of uncertainty at first, but I'm certain we're not looking at 60 games of Dalbec at first.
 

RobertS975

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I lived through a lot of players who were on the "can't be traded" list, and most fizzled... Donny Sadler and Casey Fossum come to mind. Just like some FA signings don't work out... Lugo, Panda. Maybe it's really a crapshoot.
 

sean1562

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There is a possibility that Cordero doesn't totally suck. I remember reading something that he had fairly elite speed? He has loud tools, there is a reason we acquired him. I think next year looks pretty bright, full year of Sale plus Houck(who I am really excited about) and Whitlock in the rotation. Eovaldi has been the pitcher we all hoped he could be this season. Sale/Eovaldi/Houck/Whitlock has the potential to be a pretty dominant top 4 with Pivetta and Perez as our 5/6 guys. Casas is a year closer, a full year of Duran in CF, Groome could finally turn into something, and we just drafted the top prospect in this year's draft. Bloom has a long term strategy and didn't feel the need to push in all the chips just because the Yankees and Blue Jays are desperate. Our surprise success this season forced our top rivals to dip into their farm systems for rentals to try and compete with us and we are only getting better. Verdugo is only 25, same with Devers. We have a young, solid core and Bloom is working to maintain it while fielding a product that is very fun to watch. I thought this was a third/fourth place team at the beginning of the year.
 

RedOctober3829

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I respect what bloom did or didn’t do today but am still disappointed. I’m glad he didn’t give up the farm, but there are major holes that he did not address and that may cost them down the road. This starting staff is not good enough.
 

soxhop411

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I respect what bloom did or didn’t do today but am still disappointed. I’m glad he didn’t give up the farm, but there are major holes that he did not address and that may cost them down the road. This starting staff is not good enough.
I know this is a very gamethready thing to say but I do wonder if Bloom just knows this team is way over performing and actually isn’t that good and that’s why he didn’t feel the need to make any major moves.
Again the problem is that it takes two to tango. The team we are trading with may not like the players we are offering in a trade. That’s on top of the fact that our farm system is not as good as it once was. Of the “impact” players that were traded today I have hard time seeing the Sox being able to beat the package they went for without blowing up our farm for a second straight time.
 

Remagellan

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If Sale isn’t 80+% of his former self and EDro doesn’t figure shit out, none of this matters. It seems likely that Chaim knows that, knows that it is a pretty big bet, and therefore did not want to mortgage top 10 propsects in a rebuilding system when the team needs everything to go right to be legit WS contenders.
This is where I am as well. When you look at how the rotation has pitched the past month, it's like they need three or four new starters, not one or two. You don't go all in on a hand in which you're looking to discard three or four cards.

If the guys on hand don't start pitching better, we're not going far in the playoffs (assuming we hold on to a playoff spot). And Scherzer and (plug in your preferred first baseman trade target) would not have changed that.
 

YTF

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Uh. Did the Rockies think the trade deadline was tomorrow?
View: https://twitter.com/nickgroke/status/1421262159401480195
Probably some last minute paperwork that got submitted to MLB offices just under the deadline. Could be something related to Story questioning the way the Rockies treated the deadline. He told them he wasn't coming back and didn't seem happy that they made no effort to move him, Gray and Bard, questioning the motive for not getting a return (especially in this market) for players who will become FAs.
 

Otis Foster

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I respect what bloom did or didn’t do today but am still disappointed. I’m glad he didn’t give up the farm, but there are major holes that he did not address and that may cost them down the road. This starting staff is not good enough.
I fully understand the disappointment. I share the sentiment - it would be a pity to waste this totally unforeseen season. The question is always what’s the cost?

I’m like Mister Micawber when it comes to first base - something will turn up. Maybe Cordero will do a complete 180 and show enough to stay in the line-up. Schwaber, who developed initially as a catcher will give it a shot, and Arroyo has played well there when he’s healthy. It’s the pitching.

They were never going to pay what the Jays paid for Berrios. But there were certainly candidates to buttress the middle relief. If I feel disappointment, its at the last minute patchwork that brought them 2 mediocre relievers who hardly represent an improvement over some of what’s in the system now.
 

mikeford

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I respect what bloom did or didn’t do today but am still disappointed. I’m glad he didn’t give up the farm, but there are major holes that he did not address and that may cost them down the road. This starting staff is not good enough.
Tonight is Exhibit A

Cant even get 5 innings out of anyone other than Eovaldi. This team is in deep shit.
 

soxhop411

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This is where I am as well. When you look at how the rotation has pitched the past month, it's like they need three or four new starters, not one or two. You don't go all in on a hand in which you're looking to discard three or four cards.

If the guys on hand don't start pitching better, we're not going far in the playoffs (assuming we hold on to a playoff spot). And Scherzer and (plug in your preferred first baseman trade target) would not have changed that.
I respect what bloom did or didn’t do today but am still disappointed. I’m glad he didn’t give up the farm, but there are major holes that he did not address and that may cost them down the road. This starting staff is not good enough.
I fully understand the disappointment. I share the sentiment - it would be a pity to waste this totally unforeseen season. The question is always what’s the cost?

I’m like Mister Micawber when it comes to first base - something will turn up. Maybe Cordero will do a complete 180 and show enough to stay in the line-up. Schwaber, who developed initially as a catcher will give it a shot, and Arroyo has played well there when he’s healthy. It’s the pitching.

They were never going to pay what the Jays paid for Berrios. But there were certainly candidates to buttress the middle relief. If I feel disappointment, its at the last minute patchwork that brought them 2 mediocre relievers who hardly represent an improvement over some of what’s in the system now.
Tonight is Exhibit A

Cant even get 5 innings out of anyone other than Eovaldi. This team is in deep shit.
@Remagellan makes a really good point as well. Say Sale comes back and does not pitch well and the rest of the rotation continues to struggle

We would have needed to trade for 3 different SP by the trade deadline along with a 1B. And we have nowhere near the capital to do that.
 

BaseballJones

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80% of SALE is still a good major league pitcher. Eovaldi is fine. Houck is good. Or at least he sure SEEMS to be good. It’s not a great rotation but it should be okay.

Lots can go wrong with this group. But also...it’s not hard to imagine Sale being really good, Pivetta being steady, the rotation as a whole being good enough, and the team winning 95+ games.
 

YTF

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I fully understand the disappointment. I share the sentiment - it would be a pity to waste this totally unforeseen season. The question is always what’s the cost?

I’m like Mister Micawber when it comes to first base - something will turn up. Maybe Cordero will do a complete 180 and show enough to stay in the line-up. Schwaber, who developed initially as a catcher will give it a shot, and Arroyo has played well there when he’s healthy. It’s the pitching.

They were never going to pay what the Jays paid for Berrios. But there were certainly candidates to buttress the middle relief. If I feel disappointment, its at the last minute patchwork that brought them 2 mediocre relievers who hardly represent an improvement over some of what’s in the system now.
It was a rather stellar 2.2 innings. ;) I wouldn't mind seeing him get some additional time at first, perhaps that's something that we'll see during spring training.
 

cantor44

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There is a possibility that Cordero doesn't totally suck. I remember reading something that he had fairly elite speed? He has loud tools, there is a reason we acquired him. I think next year looks pretty bright, full year of Sale plus Houck(who I am really excited about) and Whitlock in the rotation. Eovaldi has been the pitcher we all hoped he could be this season. Sale/Eovaldi/Houck/Whitlock has the potential to be a pretty dominant top 4 with Pivetta and Perez as our 5/6 guys. Casas is a year closer, a full year of Duran in CF, Groome could finally turn into something, and we just drafted the top prospect in this year's draft. Bloom has a long term strategy and didn't feel the need to push in all the chips just because the Yankees and Blue Jays are desperate. Our surprise success this season forced our top rivals to dip into their farm systems for rentals to try and compete with us and we are only getting better. Verdugo is only 25, same with Devers. We have a young, solid core and Bloom is working to maintain it while fielding a product that is very fun to watch. I thought this was a third/fourth place team at the beginning of the year.
I think you're right about 2022. If they remain healthy could be better than this year - exciting. Though you may have to subtract JD (opt out) from the 2022 roster. After 2022 there will likely be significant turnover (X, Sale, Eovaldi, Vazquez, Hernandez all might be gone, along with JD and Erod), and the farm isn't equipped to replace everyone they will lose. Now some may re-sign and some other FAs will replace, but a BIGGER transition than the transition out of 2018 is coming. The window for the All-star portion of this Red Sox core is coming to a close, so in that sense maybe it made sense to push in a few more chips now (not all of them, but a few more).
 

cantor44

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80% of SALE is still a good major league pitcher. Eovaldi is fine. Houck is good. Or at least he sure SEEMS to be good. It’s not a great rotation but it should be okay.

Lots can go wrong with this group. But also...it’s not hard to imagine Sale being really good, Pivetta being steady, the rotation as a whole being good enough, and the team winning 95+ games.
Meanwhile, before Sale and Schwarb even make an appearance of the ML team, the Sox play TB 5 times, Toronto 4 times, and the Yankees 3 times (after tonight's loss to TB) .... the Division lead will likely evaporate in that time, and that's big ... Sox have key players hurt for the first time, and the SP wheels keep flying further off the wagon every minute. It's not hyperbole to suggest the next 2-3 weeks might be determinative. Sox need those players now ... but alas.
 

Le Bastonois

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Davis is a weird addition. Feels like a response to the NYY adds
Davis is a weird addition. Feels like a response to the NYY adds
Davis probably had the misfortune of walking past Ben Cherington’s open office door when he was on the line with Chad. Cherington has a vested interest in Chavis succeeding since he was responsible for using a #1 pick to acquire him. Also, “If you’re going to juice, you’d better produce.” Chavis was persona non grata after his 80 game suspension. Ben and Michael can rekindle their bro-mance.
 
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Saints Rest

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Schwarber is already injured

JD is not.

Just my guess
I don't see how that impacts my question, other than the fact that maybe KS can try playing 1B on a rehab assignment? I guess so. But what's to hurt trying JD at 1B during BP or other fielding practice? And I know this is water under the bridge, but why didn't they try it during spring training? Moving aging vets to 1B is a time-honored baseball practice. This seems like it should have been a no-brainer a long time ago.
 

sean1562

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There is probably some hesitancy considering Arroyo just got hurt there, JDM is an incompetent fielder, and losing him for an extended stretch would really hurt our playoff chances.
 

Detts

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True, and I'm not a stat-head, but isn't "you can't predict injury" an equally valid response to any tool you try to use to measure talent? Is it all a crap shoot?
Yup

Welcome to the value of prospects. They are all lottery tickets no matter what level.

They are all one knee or elbow away from the end.

Except for Xander and Devers. Holy crap they tote up Greenvill
Yet you can’t come to a game with me, fucker?!

(I had mini monster seats the other day. Pro-tip, you can get Thursday $1 beers delivered via the app)
too freaking hot. 100 degrees sucks.
 

amRadio

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But what's to hurt trying JD at 1B during BP or other fielding practice?
I think he is saying that JD is what could possibly be hurt. If we lose Schwarber to an injury as he attempts to learn 1B, what did we really lose? A chance at a deeper lineup? If JD got hurt attempting to learn 1B mid-season we lose a key bat that we need to hold off the Rays for the division. It's tough. 1B is a blackhole for us and there aren't any good options there. I think the most likely scenario - depending on Arroyo's health - is they continue to play him at 1B when he returns and movie Kike to the infield with Schwarber in left. That would make the most of the talent they have available to them and get Dalbec out of the line up.
 

Jerry’s Curl

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80% of SALE is still a good major league pitcher. Eovaldi is fine. Houck is good. Or at least he sure SEEMS to be good. It’s not a great rotation but it should be okay.

Lots can go wrong with this group. But also...it’s not hard to imagine Sale being really good, Pivetta being steady, the rotation as a whole being good enough, and the team winning 95+ games.
The problem is Erod and Perez are dumpster fires right now. They will have Sale, Eovaldi, and Houck to rely on down the stretch.
 

Just a bit outside

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I'm sure there are very good reasons known to people smarter than I, but why can't they try JDM at 1B? How is Schwarber any more viable an option there than JD?
They have had all year to try JDM at first and have not done it. He is older and they clearly don’t want to change his routine. Schwarber was a catcher in college and I think he would have been a first baseman from the start if he went to a team without Rizzo. At least the catcher part makes me think he has decent hands and will get his body in the way of the ball. The report of him being moved off catcher was because of his arm strength not being good enough.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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They have had all year to try JDM at first and have not done it. He is older and they clearly don’t want to change his routine. Schwarber was a catcher in college and I think he would have been a first baseman from the start if he went to a team without Rizzo. At least the catcher part makes me think he has decent hands and will get his body in the way of the ball. The report of him being moved off catcher was because of his arm strength not being good enough.
Correction, they've had 3.5 years to try Martinez at 1B and haven't. Presumably he's not interested. Schwarber has played 1B (sure, in the Cape league but it's still experience) and he's saying he's willing to give it a shot. I think it's as simple as that.