Trading for Starting Pitching
- Thread starter ivanvamp
- Start date
I just believe if you acquire either pitcher it will be required to include Owens.
Cueto had a breakout last year and has so more upside and is 2 years younger. Hamels is what he is and his ERA against the AL East is not very good.
The Sox have to stop being stingy with their prospects,determine which ones they want to keep, and trade away the ones that will get a great SP return. Good Luck Ben you will need it!
Cueto had a breakout last year and has so more upside and is 2 years younger. Hamels is what he is and his ERA against the AL East is not very good.
The Sox have to stop being stingy with their prospects,determine which ones they want to keep, and trade away the ones that will get a great SP return. Good Luck Ben you will need it!
Heise3B said:
He didn't really have a "breakout" year last year. He's pretty much always been terrific.
2011: 156.0 ip, 2.31 era, 3.45 fip, 171 era+, 1.09 whip, 6.0 k/9, 3.7 bWAR
2012: 217.0 ip, 2.78 era, 3.27 fip, 148 era+, 1.17 whip, 7.1 k/9, 5.9 bWAR
2013: 60.2 ip, 2.82 era, 3.81 fip, 135 era+, 1.06 whip, 7.6 k/9, 1.4 bWAR (obviously injured)
2014: 243.2 ip, 2.25 era, 3.30 fip, 160 era+, 0.96 whip, 8.9 k/9, 6.4 bWAR
The problem is that he will cost a lot in prospects, and then you'll have to negotiate an expensive extension (which is fine, but not guaranteed) or risk losing him like you lost Lester, after just one year with Boston. Hamels at least has a longer contract.
Agreed getting Hamels has its advantages he has a longer contract. You know going in acquiring Johnny Cueto it would be for only one year, you empty the coffers at the end of 2015 and pay him the contract Lester just got or even more. This kid has talent!.
I am sick of the Sox holding onto all of their prospects, they do a great job of drafting.... now they have to determine which ones to keep and which ones to trade. It seems Ben and his staff struggle with that.
I am sick of the Sox holding onto all of their prospects, they do a great job of drafting.... now they have to determine which ones to keep and which ones to trade. It seems Ben and his staff struggle with that.
Eduardo. More upside, comparable downside risk. If the change we saw over the end of last season was real, he's got a legit shot at developing into a #1. If not, he's still in the same ballpark as Owens.Doctor G said:
It would seem to me the Reds may be more likely to let go of Cueto if you could fill the rotation hole. Wouldn't Cespedes/Kelly for Cueto make sense for everyone? Sign Shields and McCarthy and roll with Cueto/Shields/McCarthy/Buch/Webster.
Cespedes/Kelly does not make sense for the Reds. Not nearly enough value back, despite being able to control Kelly for a longer period. He's not a good enough player for that deal to work.
MAYBE they'd do it if you add another good young arm to the deal. Could we do it for less than Owens or Rodriquez? Cespedes/Kelly/Webster...? I still think they'd prefer higher upside, but maybe they'd see that as a nice balance of current and future value.
MAYBE they'd do it if you add another good young arm to the deal. Could we do it for less than Owens or Rodriquez? Cespedes/Kelly/Webster...? I still think they'd prefer higher upside, but maybe they'd see that as a nice balance of current and future value.
Teams typically don't seem receptive to granting negotiation windows to their trade partners, although it would seem to be a good negotiating chip to bring in a better package.
A totally hyperbolic example, but take the case of Cueto. If were willing to accept Marrero for him straight up, but the Sox offered Betts instead provided they can extend Cueto to a long term deal, why wouldn't the Reds take it? (And yes, I realize these aren't realistic proposals, I'm just using them to contrast.)
It's probably moot at this point anyway, as I kind of feel the days of the "trade and sign" Pedro moves are done. Barring an overwhelming offer, why wouldn't Cueto or Zimmerman just elect to test free agency if traded to a new team?
A totally hyperbolic example, but take the case of Cueto. If were willing to accept Marrero for him straight up, but the Sox offered Betts instead provided they can extend Cueto to a long term deal, why wouldn't the Reds take it? (And yes, I realize these aren't realistic proposals, I'm just using them to contrast.)
It's probably moot at this point anyway, as I kind of feel the days of the "trade and sign" Pedro moves are done. Barring an overwhelming offer, why wouldn't Cueto or Zimmerman just elect to test free agency if traded to a new team?
Minneapolis Millers said:
I'd do Cespedes/Kelly and a lesser prospect (such as Webster) for Cueto, but I'd rather move an Owens for Hamels. Despite the money owed to Cole, he's a relative bargain to what Lester got, what Scherzer and Shields will get, and what Cueto and Price will get next season barring a disaster in 2015. I really like Cueto, but if I'm moving a top prospect for him, I want more than one year of control.
Hank Scorpio said:
If you could get Cueto for Cespedes/Kelly/Webster, you could do that trade AND deal Owens+ for Hamels while maintaining the farm system in good shape. This is moot, though, since there's no way that package would be enough for the Reds.
Isn't Cespedes/Kelly/Webster more than what Oakland just got for Shark? It might not be enough for Cueto, or the right package, but it's in the ballpark of total value.
Minneapolis Millers said:
Good point, the Shark trade set a pretty low bar for pitchers with one year of control. Granted, Cueto is the better pitcher, but he's not in an entirely different league.
Minneapolis Millers said:
I wonder if the Red Sox will first open up the Cespedes trade possibilities and simply get the best possible return, and then sort through all their chips and pursue a starting pitcher. It seems like Cespedes has value, but doesn't match up well with our potential trading partners.
This idea might be a bit off the wall, but I would definitely inquire about Alex Cobb. The Rays seem to be going nowhere fast, and he's about to start getting a bit expensive as he's now arb-eligible.
We'd have him for three more seasons before he's free agency eligible, very impressive numbers pitching in the AL East, including in Fenway Park and Yankee Stadium.
He's only 27 years old, and a Boston native, so he might be receptive to signing a long term extension.
Of course, the Rays might not be willing to deal him, especially in-division, but it certainly could not hurt to explore it.
We'd have him for three more seasons before he's free agency eligible, very impressive numbers pitching in the AL East, including in Fenway Park and Yankee Stadium.
He's only 27 years old, and a Boston native, so he might be receptive to signing a long term extension.
Of course, the Rays might not be willing to deal him, especially in-division, but it certainly could not hurt to explore it.
We're pretty much screwed next year if we don't get one, or more likely two front-line starters.
At this point, my cost-controlled untouchables are just the somewhat proven MLers: bogaerts, betts & Vasquez. I believe some of our extra OFers (not betts, hanram or castillo) are gone. and so are any minor leaguers, including possibly swihart, owens, devers & margot.
At this point, my cost-controlled untouchables are just the somewhat proven MLers: bogaerts, betts & Vasquez. I believe some of our extra OFers (not betts, hanram or castillo) are gone. and so are any minor leaguers, including possibly swihart, owens, devers & margot.
Does anyone ever expect to see both Owens and Rodriguez in the rotation? How about Johnson? Not even going to talk about this year's crew (RDLR, Workman, Webster, Barnes, Ranaudo). In my opinion, it is incumbent on the FO to figure out which guy, and I really think we will only see 1, they believe can make it into the rotation, and actively include the others in trade talks. You run the risk that your analysis is wrong, but I believe this is the best time to trade two of those three, before their flaws appear at AAA and early ML call up action.
Other teams say #RedSox working on a number of other deals for starting pitching. Still hearing Cespedes for Porcello package is possible
https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/542749228787712000
https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/542749228787712000
Michael Silverman @MikeSilvermanBB 21s21 seconds ago
Source: No traction yet to speak of in Cespedes-Porcello talks. #RedSox #Tigers
Source: No traction yet to speak of in Cespedes-Porcello talks. #RedSox #Tigers
It was brought up in the other building a rotation thread, but I really like the idea of bugging BB about trading Sonny Gray. There's no particular reason he should be available, but that was true with Donaldson, too. Beane is overhauling that club and still has extra starting pitching. If he likes our 2d-level prospects (not Betts/X/Swihart) and guys like Nava/Holt/Craig, there might be a quantity for quality trade to be made.
If the Sox want to avoid paying top FA rates for top FA pitchers, they need to get someone who's controllable for a while and try to extend him.
If the Sox want to avoid paying top FA rates for top FA pitchers, they need to get someone who's controllable for a while and try to extend him.
Hank Scorpio said:
It's not complicated. If the player being offered is not willing to negotiate an extension, you don't offer a window.
Minneapolis Millers said:
I like Gray a lot, but he's pre-arb for another two seasons. I just don't see him being moved unless Betts, Bogaerts or Swihart are involved, and it would likely take additional prospects.
Alex Cobb makes a lot more sense, if the Rays are willing to move him.
Lucchino: "Tom said ratings suck. Season ticket sales are down 20%. Theo just stole Lester. Sign Shields, Scherzer and trade whatever for Hamels! Get in there and buy, buy BUY!!!"
I would hope the next item up is twofold--clearing the OF logjam and getting a SP, which would mean seeing what Cespedes will bring back.
In the Miley talk, I haven't heard anything about who they may want in return, but I'd imagine Cespedes may be interesting.
In the Miley talk, I haven't heard anything about who they may want in return, but I'd imagine Cespedes may be interesting.
soxhop411 said:
Hahn, Ross, or Cashner would represent significant upgrades to the rotation. All young with good arsenals. Hell, one could make the case that even Kennedy would be the best SP on the Sox as currently constructed.
Ross would be my preference because his GB% is elite and he strikes out batters at a great clip (24%). A little worried about the injury risk, however its nowhere near as lengthy as Cashner.
Could be anything, but it's interesting that he's flying to the Winter Meetings.Ferm Sheller said:
1) The Winter Meetings go until tomorrow, so it could have been scheduled all along.
2) He could be flying there to do PR and damage control, show the owners are invested and committed to improving the team in 2015.
3) He could be going in to help negotiate/sign off on big moves anticipated tonight -- trading for [insert name], meeting with agents for [insert name].
Clears Cleaver said:
I'm reading this with the voice of Mortimer Duke in my head. If that was your intent, bravo.
All true, but I assume Lucky is going to SD because that's where the winter meetings are, not necessarily because he's working on a trade with the Padres.foulkehampshire said:
Michael Silverman @MikeSilvermanBB
· 2m 2 minutes ago
Cherington: Unlikely #RedSox sign or trade for starter before these meetings break up.
https://twitter.com/MikeSilvermanBB
· 2m 2 minutes ago
Cherington: Unlikely #RedSox sign or trade for starter before these meetings break up.
https://twitter.com/MikeSilvermanBB
Well, Lucchino used to live in San Diego, it could be as simple as he is taking the opportunity of glad handing a few execs from around the league, going to a nice dinner, then hanging out for the weekend where it isn't 30-40 degrees and rainy all December.
Rob Bradford @bradfo 12s12 seconds ago
Source: Orioles have interest in Cespedes. Nothing remotely imminent but O's view as good potential fit
What's a decent return for Yoenis?
Source: Orioles have interest in Cespedes. Nothing remotely imminent but O's view as good potential fit
What's a decent return for Yoenis?
I don't think they're a good fit. I think Chris Tillman is probably the best we could hope for from them, but his FIP/xFIP paint him as more of a back end starter and he's got 3 more years of control left so I don't think they're going to want to move him.GaryPeters71 said:
The problem with Cespedes is that it is hard to figure out how to get major league talent for him. Any team that trades for his one year is going to be looking to compete, but then anything they are willing to deal makes it harder to see how it helps the Red Sox compete. Porcello made some sense in the event that the Tigers bring back Scherzer since there is a surplus/need question there. But I don't see that many other places.
So, the Orioles might make sense as a "trade Cespedes for prospects that you can use to bring back major league players" type of thing, but those are always tricky and of course you aren't going to get Dylan Bundy for Cespedes or anything.
So, the Orioles might make sense as a "trade Cespedes for prospects that you can use to bring back major league players" type of thing, but those are always tricky and of course you aren't going to get Dylan Bundy for Cespedes or anything.
Agree with 67. Would be great if the Sox and Orioles could send something to San Diego that might net Ross in return for Cespedes to the O's
"Mortimer, your brother John Henry is very ill"ManhattanRedSox said:
"F him! Call the levinsons! Call Ruben! Call Scott Boras!!!"