Tremont Waters is Bad

slamminsammya

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Waters was -17 last night in 4 minutes, Jaylen was +36 in 33 minutes. Someone brought this up in the gamethread - that kind of spread has to be close to a record. Wagner was even worse, -20 in 6 minutes.

To normalize +/- I think we ought to consider their theoretical bounds. A player's +/- in a given game is bounded above by his team's points scored and bounded below by the team's points allowed, and so the maximal spread in a given team's +/- between two players is bounded by points scored + points allowed. We can therefore normalize all historical +/- spreads within the same team by this value.

If anyone has quick access to some historical +/- api, what is the largest normalized spread between two teammates ever? Maybe we should do another normalization by minutes played?
 

cardiacs

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Last night was the first time I seriously entertained bringing IT back as an end of the bench sparkplug. He can't be worse than the Tremont.
I mean, for the end of the bench in my mind the base skill is don't be a bonehead / fuck basic shit up. Scal as a Celtic was a good example and there have been several since then: they don't have crazy skills but they also don't fuck up the basic stuff. Semi comes to mind as well. The last 3-4 at the end of the Celtic bench can take a hike.
 

mauf

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Last night was the first time I seriously entertained bringing IT back as an end of the bench sparkplug. He can't be worse than the Tremont.
I mean, for the end of the bench in my mind the base skill is don't be a bonehead / fuck basic shit up. Scal as a Celtic was a good example and there have been several since then: they don't have crazy skills but they also don't fuck up the basic stuff. Semi comes to mind as well. The last 3-4 at the end of the Celtic bench can take a hike.
Semi is 12th on the current team in minutes per game, which is what Scal was in the championship season. Waters is 18th this season. The 2008 team didn’t even have that many guys who played.

I don’t remember how good or bad the likes of Gabe Pruitt and J.R. Giddens were in the late 2000s, but those are the comps to Waters, not Scal (who was better than Semi, by the way).
 

HomeRunBaker

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Last night was the first time I seriously entertained bringing IT back as an end of the bench sparkplug. He can't be worse than the Tremont.
I mean, for the end of the bench in my mind the base skill is don't be a bonehead / fuck basic shit up. Scal as a Celtic was a good example and there have been several since then: they don't have crazy skills but they also don't fuck up the basic stuff. Semi comes to mind as well. The last 3-4 at the end of the Celtic bench can take a hike.
Can’t the last 3-4 of nearly every teams bench take a hike by this time of the year? By April, it’s likely you’ve had some opportunity and if you are still the last 3-4 on your bench the prospects for your success in this league are not very good. Some are even clamoring for IT who has been worse than probably every teams last 3-4 for several years now.
 

lexrageorge

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Waters is standard level for the 17th player on NBA roster. In a normal year, he would have been in Maine last night.
 

cardiacs

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Semi is 12th on the current team in minutes per game, which is what Scal was in the championship season. Waters is 18th this season. The 2008 team didn’t even have that many guys who played.
I don’t remember how good or bad the likes of Gabe Pruitt and J.R. Giddens were in the late 2000s, but those are the comps to Waters, not Scal (who was better than Semi, by the way).
This is true - Scal and Waters are not really comparable as to their position on the depth chart in their respective teams. I brought up Scal as a sort of role-model end of bench guy without putting that into consideration. I guess none of this would matter if everyone was healthy.

Can’t the last 3-4 of nearly every teams bench take a hike by this time of the year? By April, it’s likely you’ve had some opportunity and if you are still the last 3-4 on your bench the prospects for your success in this league are not very good. Some are even clamoring for IT who has been worse than probably every teams last 3-4 for several years now.
Good points.
I can imagine IT forcing a layup in double coverage but not an uncontested, low percentage shot early in a possession where clock management is a primary focus.
 

luckiestman

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Waters was -17 last night in 4 minutes, Jaylen was +36 in 33 minutes. Someone brought this up in the gamethread - that kind of spread has to be close to a record. Wagner was even worse, -20 in 6 minutes.

It was me, you fucker! Ha ha.
 

GreenMonster49

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Waters was -17 last night in 4 minutes, Jaylen was +36 in 33 minutes. Someone brought this up in the gamethread - that kind of spread has to be close to a record. Wagner was even worse, -20 in 6 minutes.

[...]

If anyone has quick access to some historical +/- api, what is the largest normalized spread between two teammates ever? Maybe we should do another normalization by minutes played?
It's not even a record for this month. On April 2, the Raptors blew out the Warriors, 130-77. Gary Trent, Jr. was +54 in 30 minutes, but Stanley Johnson somehow managed a -7 in 20 minutes.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I haven't seen the game yet but from the comments, I can imagine what happened. I'll note that the one time TW has played in a non-blowout game, he was more or less, well, cromulent (23 minutes against SAC at a -6). From a scouting perspective, he has elite handle; he has good vision; and on defense, he can steal the ball if people aren't careful.

And as recently as last July, people were wondering if he should be in the rotation: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/07/boston-celtics-rookie-tremont-waters-makes-the-case-for-minutes-with-precise-style-of-play-tom-westerholm.html

But I do question his decision-making. I also question why he hasn't seemed to improve his shooting, especially his off-the-dribble shooting, since if he really wants a NBA job, he's going to have to shoot much better than the .299/.243 that he's currently shooting over the course of a career.
 

benhogan

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Brad probably can narrow it down to 12 players the rest of the way.

In blowouts guys like Romeo, Grant, PP, Semi, Kornet could use the reps/shots
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Ok fine so waive someone else and bury Waters at the end of the bench even further. He's just not good.
As you well know, there are no guarantees in life but I would be willing to wager a good sum that the bad man won't hurt you again. Like everyone else here, I am merely a fan with no insight into how an NBA franchise actually works but I strongly suspect Stevens won't be emptying his bench that early again and that Waters likely won't see any more non-garbage time for this season if not the rest of his Celtics career.

That this is a thread and problem occupying people's minds towards the end of a West Coast road trip just makes this Friday all the better.
 

RedOctober3829

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As you well know, there are no guarantees in life but I would be willing to wager a good sum that the bad man won't hurt you again. Like everyone else here, I am merely a fan with no insight into how an NBA franchise actually works but I strongly suspect Stevens won't be emptying his bench that early again and that Waters likely won't see any more non-garbage time for this season if not the rest of his Celtics career.

That this is a thread and problem occupying people's minds towards the end of a West Coast road trip just makes this Friday all the better.
Why are you making this into something this isn't? He didn't hurt me or anyone here. I just don't think he's a good player.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Why are you making this into something this isn't? He didn't hurt me or anyone here. I just don't think he's a good player.
The Celtics have won five in a row and nine of their last twelve. We (me and you included) are participating on a thread about how awful the worst non-big on the bench is because they played terribly in trying to mop up a win. That any one of us is devoting a thought to this is the highest class problem a Celtics fan has had in months. That is all I am saying.
 

RedOctober3829

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The Celtics have won five in a row and nine of their last twelve. We (me and you included) are participating on a thread about how terrible the worst non-big on the team is because they played terribly in trying to mop up a win. That any one of us is devoting a thought to this is the highest class problem a Celtics fan has had in months. That is all I am saying.
This I agree with. If this is what we have to complain about, I'll take it. Let's just see if this continues against teams like GS, Phoenix, and Brooklyn over the next week.
 

Sam Ray Not

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This I agree with. If this is what we have to complain about, I'll take it. Let's just see if this continues against teams like GS, Phoenix, and Brooklyn over the next week.
I like how you grouped us with the Suns and Nets. :cool:

On topic, a garbage time battle between Waters and Nico Mannion could be fascinating.
 

128

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I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.

I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.

I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
I did see it. It is really hard to accomplish what he did in 3 minutes.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.

I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
It was terrible.

That said, if you stick around for garbage time for other NBA games (because aside from the degens in the gambling thread, what sort of fool would do that...oh...), you can see variations of what Waters & company did pretty much every night. Perhaps I am missing the significance of Waters horrible, no-good, very bad showing but it should come as no shock to anyone that the end of pretty much every NBA bench is filled with players who aren't very good.
 

slamminsammya

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I think my reaction was a little different than most, I had no doubt they would win. I found the bench performance hilarious. That said, I was a little shocked.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He also shouldn't. IT isn't anywhere near being an NBA player.
While I'm not exactly sure of the Cs luxury tax situation, IT would certainly make it more likely that the Cs end up in the luxury tax, which would not be ideal.

(I say this because the last I saw, the possibility of the Cs being the luxury tax currently rests on how far the Cs go in the playoffs and how many incentives are reached but adding IT's pro rated salary would make that margin more narrow. I think.)
 

Euclis20

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I think my reaction was a little different than most, I had no doubt they would win. I found the bench performance hilarious. That said, I was a little shocked.
It's a little funny after the fact, considering it was our 3rd string getting hammered by their 3rd string and none of the guys on the floor (other than maybe Semi) will ever see a single meaningful minute in the playoffs, but in the moment it was beyond infuriating. A loss would have been devastating. Beyond the simple fact that every game counts now in the rush to get a top 6 seed, the Celtics are on a really nice little run and to think that it was nearly derailed by the likes of Tremont Waters and Mo Wagner is, frankly, gross.
 

Koufax

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Tremont is on a 2-way contract. You can't cut him to make room for IT, who does not qualify.

I turned off the game just before the debacle began. I gather from the game thread that the problem wasn't that Tremont was bad. It was that he showed no regard for the outcome of the game. He just jacked up shots whenever possible rather than hold on to the ball and let time go off the clock. Poof! Like that, a 27 point lead almost vanished and they had to bring JB back in to right the ship.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Tremont is on a 2-way contract. You can't cut him to make room for IT, who does not qualify.

I turned off the game just before the debacle began. I gather from the game thread that the problem wasn't that Tremont was bad. It was that he showed no regard for the outcome of the game. He just jacked up shots whenever possible rather than hold on to the ball and let time go off the clock. Poof! Like that, a 27 point lead almost vanished and they had to bring JB back in to right the ship.
He was playing like it was a G League game. I guess considering who else was on the court, maybe he got confused.

And yeah, it's not that he was bad. It's that he was stupid. He's supposed to be a smart player.
 

joe dokes

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This I agree with. If this is what we have to complain about, I'll take it. Let's just see if this continues against teams like GS, Phoenix, and Brooklyn over the next week.
Yes. I hope there are several more, "Jesus, Tremont Waters sucked in garbage time *again* and helped the C's nearly give away a 30-point lead *again* " threads.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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He was clearly trying to show off to secure a continued place in the league next year, with no regard to the context of the game.

The glass half full view is that he won't be subject to those kinds of incentives if he has an actual role on a team in the future, but the Catch-22 is that he’s rather unlikely to be worth a roster spot for anyone when he’s playing like that.
 

slamminsammya

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Im just thrilled this thread has gotten the response it has. Love him or hate him, Waters generates reactions! Maybe last night was part of an impending transition to social media influencer.

Also, are people really distinguishing between bad and dumb on an NBA court? Isn't being dumb a means to being bad? He was so bad!
 

Cesar Crespo

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Im just thrilled this thread has gotten the response it has. Love him or hate him, Waters generates reactions! Maybe last night was part of an impending transition to social media influencer.

Also, are people really distinguishing between bad and dumb on an NBA court? Isn't being dumb a means to being bad? He was so bad!
You expect him to be bad. He's the 17th guy on the team. He's praised for his BBIQ and goes on to play like that.
 

Jimbodandy

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I'd interested to know how many posters in this thread actually watched the Waters debacle unfold early this morning and how many just read about it.

I'm in the former group, and he was bad beyond belief. His indifference to time and score was stunning. Waters wanted to get his, and that's all that really mattered to him, it appeared.
I was about an hour behind on DVR, and it was a bad as you say. It's one thing that guys come in and fuck around a bit with a huge lead, even resident bench warmers. But as the lead shrunk, he showed no inclination to give a rat's ass. It was infuriating.

It's one thing to suck like Wagner did, but Tre wasn't watching the scoreboard and the clock. He's the point guard in that lineup. Giving a shit about situational basketball is like meeting minimum requirements.
 

128

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It was terrible.

That said, if you stick around for garbage time for other NBA games (because aside from the degens in the gambling thread, what sort of fool would do that...oh...), you can see variations of what Waters & company did pretty much every night. Perhaps I am missing the significance of Waters horrible, no-good, very bad showing but it should come as no shock to anyone that the end of pretty much every NBA bench is filled with players who aren't very good.
Perhaps as fans we're just wired to fear the worst, but after the Lakers started hitting 3s and got their deficit under 20, it immediately occurred to me that there was plenty of time for the C's lead to vanish. I wonder if the coaches have the same feeling of dread.
 

Euclis20

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Im just thrilled this thread has gotten the response it has. Love him or hate him, Waters generates reactions! Maybe last night was part of an impending transition to social media influencer.

Also, are people really distinguishing between bad and dumb on an NBA court? Isn't being dumb a means to being bad? He was so bad!
Especially for a point guard. Wagner made more terrible plays and we can wonder what the hell Semi and Nesmith were doing (unlike Edwards/Waters/Wager those two have occasionally gotten real playing time this year and were completely invisible as the lead collapsed), but ultimately blowing a lead that large is on the point guard. The lead went from 27 to 7, and as someone noted earlier it should be nearly impossible to give up 20 points in 4 minutes. That's ten 24 second violations, which would have been far better than what they actually did.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Perhaps as fans we're just wired to fear the worst, but after the Lakers started hitting 3s and got their deficit under 20, it immediately occurred to me that there was plenty of time for the C's lead to vanish. I wonder if the coaches have the same feeling of dread.
I imagine Stevens was dreading putting the starters in after clearing the bench. It's always a bad look.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Especially for a point guard. Wagner made more terrible plays and we can wonder what the hell Semi and Nesmith were doing (unlike Edwards/Waters/Wager those two have occasionally gotten real playing time this year and were completely invisible as the lead collapsed), but ultimately blowing a lead that large is on the point guard. The lead went from 27 to 7, and as someone noted earlier it should be nearly impossible to give up 20 points in 4 minutes. That's ten 24 second violations, which would have been far better than what they actually did.
Nesmith may have played a little more, but as of right now, he's definitely in the Edwards/Waters/Wagner group.
 

BigSoxFan

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I imagine Stevens was dreading putting the starters in after clearing the bench. It's always a bad look.
Just imagine if one of the Jay's sprained an ankle in the final 2 minutes because they had to come back in due to Waters' disastrous play
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I imagine Stevens was dreading putting the starters in after clearing the bench. It's always a bad look.
As a side note, I know Stevens has his detractors around here but even Steve Kerr has had to put his starters back into games that benches for the peak-Warriors teams have fumbled away. It happens but to your point, you rarely see coaches make the same mistake twice.