Uche traded to Kansas City

[NextBigThing8184]

Why does this keep coming up 5 years later?

They wanted to keep him. They franchise tagged him. Tried to sign him to an extension. Thuney didn't agree to one. Played out the season on the tag. Then come 2021 rather than tag him again for a big raise, then I guess watch him leave after 2021, they moved on and spent their money on guys who were willing to sign here long term.

Sometimes, the player just wants to be elsewhere. Great job by Thuney getting his money, and also collecting his rings. Pretty solid move choosing to play with Mahomes rather than broken down Cam Newton or rookie Mac Jones.

Between Thuney and Shaq Mason, I think Pats fans have lost their minds.

I think the Cole Strange and associates memes (did you know some teams thought he should be a 3rd rounder?!) is what broke people’s brains as far as Thuney goes

BB should have paid Thuney and not Mason. But I can understand him not wanting to have two very expensive guards and one of the highest paid centers while having salary cap concerns elsewhere and no left tackle under contract.

Wynn flopping and the Mason extension spelled the end of Thuney in New England. But if Strange had been Mankins 2.0, not a lot of people would be complaining about it.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Is that Stidham's Music????

I was a BB over Brady guy and I was wrong. I loved Brady and knew he was a ton of it but had faith in BB to rebuild after Tom and Tom was a short term answer. Boy was I wrong. The water so many here carry for BB must be back breaking.

The last thing I'd want for the Patriots right now is to have BB at the helm for the long term.

baffling to me that anyone would be “Tom over BB”

you need 52 other guys to field a competitive team. Putting Brady over BB implies the rest of the guys BB assembled and coached up year after year did nothing to help the team win. Brady didn’t design the gameplans to stop the greatest show on turf or the peak Manning Colts (for example). Brady didn’t put Malcom Butler in the right place at the right time with the right coaching

in fact, in Brady’s best years (personally), the team didn’t win (2007 and arguably 2010).

They needed each other and they benefitted from each other. Rebuilding a whole team (which Bb needed to do after 2019) including finding a QB is a lot harder than being plug and play into the Bucs like Brady was.

 

[Van Everyman]

Getting back to Uche, sometimes I think we make football analysis too complicated. Uche needs a Judon-like teammate to take the double teams so he can get the most out of his own pass rushing ability. Just like Garrett Wilson benefited yesterday from Davonte Adams drawing Christian Gonzalez so he could draw, checks notes, Marcus Jones. Just like Brian Holloway fell off a cliff once John Hannah retired.

Football is a team sport and sometimes guys do better when they are surrounded by teammates who help them draw out their strengths and cover for their weaknesses.

That’s the case with Uche. We can get mad that he completely disappeared last season after Judon went down. Or, we can get angry that Elliot Wolf wasn’t able to get more for a guy who basically had to re-sign with us on a 1-year minimum deal because nobody wanted him. Or we can just accept who he was as a player for us, take what we can get for him and wish him well.

 

[Auger34]

Bill can say whatever the fuck he wants. In fact, it would be weird if he didn't say anything at all about the Patriots, given that he is being paid to discuss all of the league's teams.

We are free, however, to call out what he says when it is inarguably dumb, as it was in this case when discussing the Uche trade.

This.

IMO, Belichick as an analyst is a lot like Gruden as an analyst.

As a coach, Gruden was known as a guy who basically couldn’t stand any player. He always thought he could get someone better in their spot. Heck, he was campaigning to get better players during the Bucs Super Bowl parade celebration.
Then as an analyst, he was Mr. Sunshine. Everyone was the best player he’s ever seen. He would blabber on about how there’s no reason that Bruce Gradkowski shouldn’t make multiple Pro Bowlers.

A lot of Bill’s takes with McAfee or on his media hits just don’t mesh with how he ran things when he was here.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

The real issue was trading Justin Herron away. That was the start of the downfall.

 

[mcpickl]

I think the Cole Strange and associates memes (did you know some teams thought he should be a 3rd rounder?!) is what broke people’s brains as far as Thuney goes

BB should have paid Thuney and not Mason. But I can understand him not wanting to have two very expensive guards and one of the highest paid centers while having salary cap concerns elsewhere and no left tackle under contract.

Wynn flopping and the Mason extension spelled the end of Thuney in New England. But if Strange had been Mankins 2.0, not a lot of people would be complaining about it.

But, why is that framed as a choice?

Mason had already signed his extension before the 2018 season. Thuney was franchised before the 2020 season. The Patriots still wanted to sign Thuney with Mason already on the books, but Thuney didn't agree on an extension.

Not that it matters much, but David Andrews wasn't one of the highest paid centers at that time. He was finishing up a 3/9 deal in Thuneys last season and signed a 4/19 deal after Thuney left. He wasn't among the top ten centers in cap hit til last year.

Belichick wanted to have two very expensive guards, because they were both among the best players on the team, but Thuney wanted to go keep winning.

It wasn't Belichicks choice to let Thuney walk. If he didn't want to keep him, he wouldn't have franchised him and let him play under the tag. Thuney made the choice to leave.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Letting Thuney walk was a pretty simple to me.... Bill didn't want to have the highest paid guard in the league, and he had more confidence in his ability to draft/develop interior line than WR/TE. The line was fine the first year without Thuney, they brought in Karras and he did fine as the guard opposite Mason.

It was 2022 where the line problems started... Karras left, Mason was traded. They drafted Strange and kicked Onwenu back inside.... Strange got off to a slow start, but seemed to be coming on late season. RT was probably the biggest issue with Wynn's injury/ineffectiveness. 2023.... cliff time, Strange got hurt, was ineffective when he returned, then started to put up good performances before a major injury,... They brought in multiple solid swing vet tackles, all got hurt (or Malaria), the rookies they drafted for IOL were not very good... etc.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

The real issue was trading Justin Herron away. That was the start of the downfall.

Total sh!tshow ever since.

 

[ZMart100]

I just watched the BB clip. I have no idea what people are complaining about. It's really not criticism of the Pats.
View: https://twitter.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1850959706967117917

 

[reggiecleveland]

I just watched the BB clip. I have no idea what people are complaining about. It's really not criticism of the Pats.
View: https://twitter.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1850959706967117917

I will never understand people being mad at this guy. Literally the most successful run in NFL history and people go out of their way to be angry at him. I side will BB over Kraft, but as a fan I can't ever be mad at Kraft becasue of what he did for the team.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

I have no interest in helping KC eclipse the Patriots. I would have preferred they trade him literally anywhere else. Surprised they couldn't find a way to make a deal with the Ravens, whose D is really struggling right now. I mean, obviously, that wasn't an option or they would have done it. For what we got - a 6th two years out - I kind of wish they'd waited longer.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

This was a very low return, particularly because the pick doesn't come until 2026, but why not? Having Uche here and the leaving as a compless FA next year adds no value. Whatever Uche goes on to do with the Chiefs, it wasn't going to happen here.

Nothing burger deal.

 

[Justthetippett]

This was a very low return, particularly because the pick doesn't come until 2026, but why not? Having Uche here and the leaving as a compless FA next year adds no value. Whatever Uche goes on to do with the Chiefs, it wasn't going to happen here.

Nothing burger deal.

I guess it depends on who they sign as FAs but when combined with other FA departures, they actually could have netted more with a compensatory selection, potentially. In any case, it's a disappointing end for Uche who showed some flashes of potential, but ultimately lived up to some of the negatives from his scouting assessment coming out of college. From the posts I think most, including myself, are most irked by the trade partner. If he was going to Dallas or something I would care far less. The sun is smiling on KC right now and it's becoming unbearable (or at least very annoying!).

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I guess it depends on who they sign as FAs but when combined with other FA departures, they actually could have netted more with a compensatory selection, potentially. In any case, it's a disappointing end for Uche who showed some flashes of potential, but ultimately lived up to some of the negatives from his scouting assessment coming out of college. From the posts I think most, including myself, are most irked by the trade partner. If he was going to Dallas or something I would care far less. The sun is smiling on KC right now and it's becoming unbearable (or at least very annoying!).

The only way the Pats would be getting comp for Uche would be if he had a breakout over the final 9 games.

 

[8slim]

I have no interest in helping KC eclipse the Patriots. I

From the posts I think most, including myself, are most irked by the trade partner.

Again, if Wolf refused to trade with another NFL team because the fans of the team he works for are ascared that Mahomes might catch Tom Brady's SB ringz record he should then be fired immediately and for cause.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Again, if Wolf refused to trade with another NFL team because the fans of the team he works for are ascared that Mahomes might catch Tom Brady's SB ringz record he should then be fired immediately and for cause.

Anyone who wouldn't trade with another viable partner for sentimental reasons is called a fan. Fans probably don't make good GMs.

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

Is there any way to get the Chiefs' draft room to tell us which WR to take in the 2nd round next year part of the deal? They seem better at finding talent there than NE is.

 

[8slim]

Anyone who wouldn't trade with another viable partner for sentimental reasons is called a fan. Fans probably don't make good GMs.

Slight correction. A dumb fan.

 

[cshea]

Is there any way to get the Chiefs' draft room to tell us which WR to take in the 2nd round next year part of the deal? They seem better at finding talent there than NE is.

Eh, not sure the Chiefs are great at drafting WR. Worthy looks useful but it's been 7 games so jury is out.

They spent 2's and 3's on guys like Mecole Hardman, Skyy Moore and Rashee Rice. The first two are busts/non-impact guys. Rice looks like a hit but also blew out his knee and may be headed to jail. They have the usual late round fliers that busted like a lot of teams.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

This is off topic (as is most of the last two pages of this thread) but my impression from a distance is that Baltimore and Kansas City are two of the most consistently well-run franchises in the NFL. Everyone has hits or misses. But those two teams seem to more consistently make good decisions that a lot of other places.

If the man was open to it (and I'm sure other people have unsuccessfully tried to poach him) but if I were Kraft I'd be trying to get Ozzie Newsome to come north as a 'senior advisor' or some-such title to add some gravitas to the front office and advise Kraft/Wolf on the direction of the franchise.

Having someone whose been good at running a franchise + his gravitas and connections would help the franchise in a bunch of ways

 

[NortheasternPJ]

This is off topic (as is most of the last two pages of this thread) but my impression from a distance is that Baltimore and Kansas City are two of the most consistently well-run franchises in the NFL. Everyone has hits or misses. But those two teams seem to more consistently make good decisions that a lot of other places.

If the man was open to it (and I'm sure other people have unsuccessfully tried to poach him) but if I were Kraft I'd be trying to get Ozzie Newsome to come north as a 'senior advisor' or some-such title to add some gravitas to the front office and advise Kraft/Wolf on the direction of the franchise.

Having someone whose been good at running a franchise + his gravitas and connections would help the franchise in a bunch of ways

Why would Ozzie Newsome do it? Also they’re 3-6 in the playoffs since Flacco some how did it. This is with Lamar Jackson, a stable coach etc.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Why would Ozzie Newsome do it?

Oh, I'm assuming he's not interested in that kinda gig outside of Baltimore, which is why nobody has poached him yet

 

[Justthetippett]

Slight correction. A dumb fan.

Two things can be true for fans at the same time: they can recognize it's the job of a GM to do what's best for their own team, which means finding the best return; and they can not like the result if the trading partner is a team they root against and the return is very weak.

 

[8slim]

Just chiming in here to note that Josh Uche has been on the field for 25 defensive snaps in his 3 game Chiefs career. That's a whopping 12% of all KC defensive snaps.

I wonder if Bill is going to acknowledge that maybe the Pats got a good return for a non-entity.

 

[DJnVa]

HE CAN DEFINITELY HELP THEM!

Edit: To be fair, from their POV, if he makes a single big play in the postseason, it's worth it. But, yeah, the return seems fair at this point.

 

[BaseballJones]

Just chiming in here to note that Josh Uche has been on the field for 25 defensive snaps in his 3 game Chiefs career. That's a whopping 12% of all KC defensive snaps.

I wonder if Bill is going to acknowledge that maybe the Pats got a good return for a non-entity.

The Pats got basically nothing in return for Uche.

 

[Steve Dillard]

I wonder if Bill is going to acknowledge that maybe the Pats got a good return for a non-entity.

Who's been wrong more than BB on personnel matters?


I had actually looked up Uche's snaps this am, wondering if it was situational.

 

[astrozombie]

The Pats got basically nothing in return for Uche.

I would rather the Pats have that pick and the tiny chance that it turns into something than the nothing Uche provided the Pats and the nothing he would have provided at the end of the season when he walks away.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Who's been wrong more than BB on personnel matters?


I had actually looked up Uche's snaps this am, wondering if it was situational.

Honestly... tons and tons of people? Bill was an average or better GM for like 2 decades plus.

Uche is a situational pass-rusher, that's what he's always been, and here he was used for about 30% of the snaps, KC is still working him in, but I assume his role will be 20% snaps, mostly 3rd and long

 

[BaseballJones]

I would rather the Pats have that pick and the tiny chance that it turns into something than the nothing Uche provided the Pats and the nothing he would have provided at the end of the season when he walks away.

At this point I'd rather have the pick as well, but the present value of a 2026 sixth round pick is essentially zero (so late in the draft and two years in the future). The Pats gave Uche away to the Chiefs. They didn't get a good return. They got essentially nothing. But in this case, nothing was better than keeping Uche.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I would rather the Pats have that pick and the tiny chance that it turns into something than the nothing Uche provided the Pats and the nothing he would have provided at the end of the season when he walks away.

Yeah, the Uche trade was fine because he had no value to us... now you could maybe argue that if they moved off him early they get a bit more? Still it's a fine trade for both sides.

 

[Steve Dillard]

Honestly... tons and tons of people? Bill was an average or better GM for like 2 decades plus.

Your probably know the source of that, but
https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york/jets/post/_/id/47641/whos-been-wrong-more-than-charley-casserly

 

[lexrageorge]

At this point I'd rather have the pick as well, but the present value of a 2026 sixth round pick is essentially zero (so late in the draft and two years in the future). The Pats gave Uche away to the Chiefs. They didn't get a good return. They got essentially nothing. But in this case, nothing was better than keeping Uche.

They got the market return for Uche, as he is a one dimensional LB whose best days are already behind him. That 2026 6th can be used as currency in a future trade if it comes to that.

 

[8slim]

The Pats got basically nothing in return for Uche.

They got a 6th. Granted that's unlikely to yield a meaningful player. But Bill criticized them about the return... for a guy who's barely taken more than 1 in 10 snaps with the KC defense. Seems like getting anything for him was a win.

*edit* I see from other posts that we agree more than not. So I'll just say that at this point Bill's comments on Pats moves either (a) reveal he's bitter about the circumstances of his departure (which is understandable), or (b) reveal his talent evaluation slipped considerably and that's a big reason why he was "departed". Or (c) both.

 

[ZMart100]

They got a 6th. Granted that's unlikely to yield a meaningful player. But Bill criticized them about the return... for a guy who's barely taken more than 1 in 10 snaps with the KC defense. Seems like getting anything for him was a win.

*edit* I see from other posts that we agree more than not. So I'll just say that at this point Bill's comments on Pats moves either (a) reveal he's bitter about the circumstances of his departure (which is understandable), or (b) reveal his talent evaluation slipped considerably and that's a big reason why he was "departed". Or (c) both.

He did not criticize the Patriots about the return. He said that the Chiefs didn't give up anything because they would get the 6th back. That is different than saying it doesn't make sense for the Patriots. (The Patriots wouldn't get the comp pick if they spend this off-season, which everyone expects they will.)

 

[Myt1]

baffling to me that anyone would be “Tom over BB”

you need 52 other guys to field a competitive team. Putting Brady over BB implies the rest of the guys BB assembled and coached up year after year did nothing to help the team win.

It does absolutely nothing of the sort.

 

[Gash Prex]

He actually did criticize the Pats for the return, claiming they could have got more the week before. The following week he realized (or conceded) that the Pats would most likely not get a comp pick for Uche given they have so much cap space - so it made sense for the Pats to trade Uche for a 6th

 

[ZMart100]

He actually did criticize the Pats for the return, claiming they could have got more the week before. The following week he realized (or conceded) that the Pats would most likely not get a comp pick for Uche given they have so much cap space - so it made sense for the Pats to trade Uche for a 6th

Where? I haven't seen it. The only time I have seen him discuss the trade is in the clip I posted.

 

[rodderick]

baffling to me that anyone would be “Tom over BB”

you need 52 other guys to field a competitive team. Putting Brady over BB implies the rest of the guys BB assembled and coached up year after year did nothing to help the team win. Brady didn’t design the gameplans to stop the greatest show on turf or the peak Manning Colts (for example). Brady didn’t put Malcom Butler in the right place at the right time with the right coaching

in fact, in Brady’s best years (personally), the team didn’t win (2007 and arguably 2010).

They needed each other and they benefitted from each other. Rebuilding a whole team (which Bb needed to do after 2019) including finding a QB is a lot harder than being plug and play into the Bucs like Brady was.

If you ask any team in the league, any owner, any GM, if they'd rather have a 25 year old Tom Brady (or Patrick Mahomes or another equivalent) or a 50 year old Bill Belichick (or Andy Reid, or another equivalent) on their roster right now, 32 out of 32 are picking the quarterback.

I don't think many things illustrate that point better than Sean McDermott having a better winning percentage than Bill Belichick, due to having Josh Allen for basically his entire HC career while Bill had multiple down years with bad QBs.

 

[Silverdude2167]

If you ask any team in the league, any owner, any GM, if they'd rather have a 25 year old Tom Brady (or Patrick Mahomes or another equivalent) or a 50 year old Bill Belichick (or Andy Reid, or another equivalent) on their roster right now, 32 out of 32 are picking the quarterback.

I don't think many things illustrate that point better than Sean McDermott having a better winning percentage than Bill Belichick, due to having Josh Allen for basically his entire HC career while Bill had multiple down years with bad QBs.

Do you want to be very likely to win one or two Superbowls? You take the QB. Do you want a chance to win 4+ (but potentially not win any Superbowls) you take the coach.

 

[MikeStanley728]

If you ask any team in the league, any owner, any GM, if they'd rather have a 25 year old Tom Brady (or Patrick Mahomes or another equivalent) or a 50 year old Bill Belichick (or Andy Reid, or another equivalent) on their roster right now, 32 out of 32 are picking the quarterback.

I don't think many things illustrate that point better than Sean McDermott having a better winning percentage than Bill Belichick, due to having Josh Allen for basically his entire HC career while Bill had multiple down years with bad QBs.

If you know the 25 year old QB is going to have the same career as Brady or Mahomes have actually had (or is on their way to having in Mahones case), then sure I agree. In both Brady and Mahomes case the coach was there before the QB, and I think it’s tough to say whether they would have had the same success with different coaches, particularly in Brady’s case where he was carried as the fourth string QB in his first year.

 

[rodderick]

If you know the 25 year old QB is going to have the same career as Brady or Mahomes have actually had (or is on their way to having in Mahones case), then sure I agree. In both Brady and Mahomes case the coach was there before the QB, and I think it’s tough to say whether they would have had the same success with different coaches, particularly in Brady’s case where he was carried as the fourth string QB in his first year.

I mean, yeah, the exercise is predicated on you knowing how both the QBs and the coaches are going to turn out, otherwise 50 year old Bill was widely viewed as a failure as well, or at least very far from a sure thing at HC.

But to play you other scenario, I'd much rather be in the Patriots spot right now with Drake Maye even with Jerod Mayo as coach than I'd be, say, the 2025 Panthers with Ben Johnson.

 

[mauf]

At this point I'd rather have the pick as well, but the present value of a 2026 sixth round pick is essentially zero (so late in the draft and two years in the future). The Pats gave Uche away to the Chiefs. They didn't get a good return. They got essentially nothing. But in this case, nothing was better than
keeping Uche.

Most 6th round picks make the team. And it’s not like the Chiefs are going to tag Uche; the Pats can re-sign him after the season if he shows something (which, so far, he has not).

Always good to get something for nothing, even if “something” in this case is likely to be a marginal contributor three years from now.

 

[RoDaddy]

The Pats got basically nothing in return for Uche.

Appreciate your frustration we didn't get more but it's far from a definite "nothing". A quick check of our 6th rounders over the last 20 years include Brady of course; Boutte, Pop and Baringer all from the same 2023 draft (!); Onwenu; and a number of half-decent players like Braxton Berrios, Nate Ebner, Sam Roberts, Karras, McDermott, Banta-Cain and in the 7th round, Edelman (!) and Matt Cassel.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Appreciate your frustration we didn't get more but it's far from a definite "nothing". A quick check of our 6th rounders over the last 20 years include Brady of course; Boutte, Pop and Baringer all from the same 2023 draft (!); Onwenu; and a number of half-decent players like Braxton Berrios, Nate Ebner, Sam Roberts, Karras, McDermott, Banta-Cain and in the 7th round, Edelman (!) and Matt Cassel.

sure 10-15% of 6th round picks have decent careers. Although who knows whether or not Wolf will have the same late round success as BB.

doesn’t change the fact that as far as trade value goes, 6th round picks 2 years from now are as close to valueless as you’ll find.

just to put into context, of the 2021 draft, only 17 of the 43 6th round picks are still on 53 man rosters. Only 2 are starters (Trey Smith and Roy Lopez). There’s a few useful role players and backups in there but mostly guys living on the very fringes of rosters or practice squads of their 2nd or 3rd teams they’ve been with (like the Pats selections of Josh Bledsoe and Will Sherman)

I think having more bites of the apple is always a good thing and Uche was basically valueless mid season so I’m not criticizing the trade. I do think they should have spent that money elsewhere and not bothered to bring him back but I guess they effectively bought a 6th round pick.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

If you ask any team in the league, any owner, any GM, if they'd rather have a 25 year old Tom Brady (or Patrick Mahomes or another equivalent) or a 50 year old Bill Belichick (or Andy Reid, or another equivalent) on their roster right now, 32 out of 32 are picking the quarterback.

I don't think many things illustrate that point better than Sean McDermott having a better winning percentage than Bill Belichick, due to having Josh Allen for basically his entire HC career while Bill had multiple down years with bad QBs.

I don’t think anyone would question the idea that an all time great QB can overcome a bad or mediocre coach and win a Super Bowl. That’s not the point I was making and it’s baffling to me that that’s what you got out of it.

All time great QB’s, unicorns, still can’t do it without something of a supporting cast. Whether it’s great talent around them or a great head coach (or both)

do think Brady wins 7 Super Bowls in 21 years if every season he was paired with Rod Rust as his head coach and the current Panthers roster?

How many Super Bowls does Brady win with today’s Pats roster and Mayo (let’s assume Mayo and the quality of the roster were constant for 21 seasons)?

Brady and Belichick were equal parts of the equation. I don’t think Brady sniffs 7 titles with Mayo and the Panthers roster (for example). I also don’t think BB gets to 9 Super Bowls with any other QB except maybe Mahomes (or Montana). It cuts both ways.

so the question really is, Brady + average coach and average supporting cast vs Belichick with average QB (everything else the same with personnel). I think there’s a good argument to make that BB wins more games than Brady in the first half of that run (2001-2010).

Yeah if I was starting a franchise today, I’d take a young HOF QB over any coach. That’s completely irrelevant from who deserves the credit for what happened in the past.

 

[Zincman]

Who's been wrong more than BB on personnel matters?


I had actually looked up Uche's snaps this am, wondering if it was situational.

This is a joke, right? If what you say is true, then he is by far, the greatest coach in history, making chicken soup out of chicken shit. OTOH, perhaps a more thorough investigation of his track record on personnel would lead you to a different conclusion

 

[joe dokes]

doesn’t change the fact that as far as trade value goes, 6th round picks 2 years from now are as close to valueless as you’ll find.

As was Uche.

 

[Curt S Loew]

This is a joke, right?

Yes. But he stole it.