My bad, right you are, probably Ribéry or Davies in his place on RW. Nonetheless, not the easiest assignment for Robertson
UEFA Champions League - Last 16
- Thread starter swiftaw
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I was annoyed about the PSG handball call and went about trying to understand the rule and whether it was interpreted correctly. While I initially thought it was unfair, after further consideration I think the call was correct.
I recommend watching this video of a referee training session:
My key takeaway is that a defender who is out of position and elects to slide, jump, or otherwise make an additional effort (beyond staying/getting in front but remaining standing) to block a strike by an attacker is taking a risk and making themselves bigger to prevent an opportunity. The spirit of the game is to encourage attacking football and even as a defender this makes sense to me. Defenders should get credit for being brave and getting in front of shots and crosses, but that should not entitle them to a greater advantage. Put another way, if Kimpebe (sp?) had sprinted towards Dalot and the ball had struck his hand while in a sprinting motion, I think the referee should and would elect not to call a handball.
My understanding is the additional change of the natural silhouette is aimed at allowing defenders to have their arms in natural positions, as opposed to behind their back. While that is a positive change, as a defender in the box, I will continue to put my arms flush on my body (i.e. covering the family jewels) or behind my back. In addition, I think the rules are written in a way so that if an attacker hits a defender's arm at the defender's side (in a natural position) while the defender is in good position and is on his feet, that no handball would be called. That is a very common situation that often has handball incidents.
I recommend watching this video of a referee training session:
My key takeaway is that a defender who is out of position and elects to slide, jump, or otherwise make an additional effort (beyond staying/getting in front but remaining standing) to block a strike by an attacker is taking a risk and making themselves bigger to prevent an opportunity. The spirit of the game is to encourage attacking football and even as a defender this makes sense to me. Defenders should get credit for being brave and getting in front of shots and crosses, but that should not entitle them to a greater advantage. Put another way, if Kimpebe (sp?) had sprinted towards Dalot and the ball had struck his hand while in a sprinting motion, I think the referee should and would elect not to call a handball.
My understanding is the additional change of the natural silhouette is aimed at allowing defenders to have their arms in natural positions, as opposed to behind their back. While that is a positive change, as a defender in the box, I will continue to put my arms flush on my body (i.e. covering the family jewels) or behind my back. In addition, I think the rules are written in a way so that if an attacker hits a defender's arm at the defender's side (in a natural position) while the defender is in good position and is on his feet, that no handball would be called. That is a very common situation that often has handball incidents.
Are we sure we trust US Soccer’s interpretation of anything?
I’ve seen this video linked in a few places and while I think it does give good insight into how this decision gets made I absolutely hate it. The laws of the game do not introduce a “did the defender take a risk” standard. That’s being added in and is part of the reason why there is inconsistency. The premise is flawed when he says defenders slide tackle because they are late. They slide tackle for many reasons and a few of his examples are ones where the defender isn’t late whatsoever. The risk they are taking is not sliding to make up time but are instead trying to block the most likely flight of the ball. A byproduct of this is that the natural positions of arms and hands changes and this is where this standard falls apart. There is no single silhouette of a player and each athletic motion will modify what is “natural” based on a bunch of fluid circumstances. A player who is running at full speed will struggle to slide with his hands inside his body, particularly the lower or trailing hand. A player who is jumping can’t do so with his arms within his body as the act of launching will necessitate the arms being a part of that motion.
If they want to rewrite the rule to include this notion of “risk” when a player slides or jumps then I suppose defenders and viewers will have to adapt. But let’s be clear on what we are doing to change the game as it would really change the ability for defenders to challenge shots and crosses. Having an unwritten standard that is selectively applied and quite frankly often violates the laws of nature is not a great way forward in my opinion.
That said, I’m selfishly glad United won as I’m happy to have Mbappe, Neymar, and Cavani our of the tournament. I wouldn’t in any way relish a 2 leg derby in CL but PSG have a very talented squad themselves and would generally agree that they had myriad chances to put the tie to rest ahead of the decision. They were playing with fire being so wasteful and you often get burned in this sport when that happens
Edit: I did get a real kick out of the commentators turning United into little Yeovil town yesterday. Plucky little injury depleted Man United with like 300 million of transfer fees on the pitch
The fallout from these couple wild days of CL football begins with....Roma firing Di Francesco and eyeballing Ranieri as a replacement. That gets a "wow" from me.
Worse still (and by a large margin), Mourinho has indicated that he is open to overtures from Madrid!
I missed this - Monchi out at Roma, too. That's a helluva midseason shake up. Things must have been very unsettled behind the scenes.
They’re in 5th and were potatoed by Lazio last weekend. Porto dominated them on Wednesday. I imagine there was a lot of high volume Italian spoken behind closed doors this week.
Atleti take a 2-0 lead into Turin and Citeh seem comfortable heading back to the Etihad having scored 3 in Westphalia against Schalke. Will be fun to see Juve needing to chase the match as that plays right into Atleti's counterattacking hands.
Crazy things happen in football, but I struggle to see Atletico losing 3-0 or 4-1. I have to think that Juventus will come out of the gate quickly in an attempt to get an early goal. Atletico is without both Filipe Luis and Lucas Hernandez, which means Juanfran, who is a RB, will start on the left. Atletico is also without Diego Costa, so there is some extra pressure on Morata to have a solid match.
Wow... tough to overturn that foul call. Oblak looks to have hurt his right hand
I do think Oblak had both hands on the ball, brief as it may have been
Drives me nuts how commentators refer to VAR. The BT Sport broadcast is going on and on about how "VAR made a huge decision" by not awarding the goal, when really it was Kuipers's initial call of a foul on a 50/50 decision that determined it.
After a braindead turnover from Morata trying to be cute and playing a headed ball backwards, an outstanding ball from Bernardeschi finds Ronaldo on the far post, 2-1
I do think Oblak had both hands on the ball, brief as it may have been
Drives me nuts how commentators refer to VAR. The BT Sport broadcast is going on and on about how "VAR made a huge decision" by not awarding the goal, when really it was Kuipers's initial call of a foul on a 50/50 decision that determined it.
After a braindead turnover from Morata trying to be cute and playing a headed ball backwards, an outstanding ball from Bernardeschi finds Ronaldo on the far post, 2-1
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Just in case there was any doubt, MANC put 3 past Schalke in the first half. Go watch Atleti-Juve you stinkin' Citeh fans!
After watching Alisson get mugged this weekend, that foul was hard to stomach.
I was extremely negative going into this given recent form, but I think Juventus have a fair chance in the second half. I wish Dybala could get a sniff- his creativity would help unlock this back line. It needs to be all hands on deck at this point- I’d like to see him go 30 minutes or more.
Sami Khederia’s malady, terrifying on a personal level, has forced Allegri’s hand. The midfield shuffle has had a significant positive impact. He’s not missed.
I was extremely negative going into this given recent form, but I think Juventus have a fair chance in the second half. I wish Dybala could get a sniff- his creativity would help unlock this back line. It needs to be all hands on deck at this point- I’d like to see him go 30 minutes or more.
Sami Khederia’s malady, terrifying on a personal level, has forced Allegri’s hand. The midfield shuffle has had a significant positive impact. He’s not missed.
Clearly, somebody in Turin saw something about Atletico’s ability to deal with crosses. Looks like the entire game plan right now.
Juanfran would freak Skeletor out.
Please tell me you all aren’t watching the FIFA Fair Play Fairies against an inconsequential German team.
Please tell me you all aren’t watching the FIFA Fair Play Fairies against an inconsequential German team.
Announcers seemed to think it was pretty cut and dry but I thought the same thing. I’d be livid that they didn’t at least look at it if I was an Atletico Madrid supporter.
I do like seeing Ronaldo do great things, though, and this is some kind of performance.
Unbelievable result for Juve.
It’s amazing that Ronaldo has transformed into the worlds best poacher.
It’s amazing that Ronaldo has transformed into the worlds best poacher.
I’m not sure how to take that, but I mean it with all sincerity in the world. It’s amazing that he’s transformed himself twice in his career and he’s the best at what he does.
If juve win the Champions League this year, I think you could make a more than reasonable argument that he’s the best of all time and not just one of the best...or one of the best two.
Sorry. Drinking heavily.
From a Juventus standpoint, he’s Del Piero and Inzhagi rolled up into one.
He needs to stop taking free kicks, however. Juventus have two players (Pjanić and Dybala) that are indisputably superior. He keeps knocking them into the wall (as he did tonight).
I don’t think I’m revealing anything new that I’m a huge Buffon fan. If this year works out, I’ll be insanely torn. I. Don’t. Like. Ronaldo. I don’t dispute his talent or his ability to transform himself. I find myself cheering when he thanks a teammate. That’s bullshit. If Juventus finally find this title without the best goalkeeper in the history of the game, it’s going to hurt, in a way.
The Old Lady has felt like an afterthought in Europe for too long, even with their final appearances. They’re at risk of becoming a modern version of the Bills. I love them and want them to win. My heart bleeds for Buffon, regardless. He got fucked this year, it was harsh last year.
Correa has not yet figured out how to control his emotions and often plays thoughtlessly. Correa needed to commit the foul near midfield -- stop the play, take the yellow, and move on. His complete boneheadedness was beyond frustrating.
This strategy worked wonders -- great game plan design by Juventus. Atletico was missing both Filipe Luis and Lucas Hernandez, and their absences forced Juanfran to play left back instead of his usual spot on the right.
Where/how did Ronaldo score the first header? Jumping over Juanfran. Lucas Hernandez is much more athletic than Juanfran while Filipe Luis is (in theory) more tactically savvy, so both players may have been able to prevent the goal.
One thing that interests me about football is how often a turnover leads to a goal or a poor foul leads to a goal. I feel like the really good teams limit the number of compromising turnovers.
I don't understand Simeone's game plan at all. Within reason, Atletico needed a single goal. Now, I understand Juventus came out flying and pressing, but it's nothing they haven't seen before. There was no adjustment. Outside of a spell at the end of the first half, Atletico couldn't string three passes together. Even after the last goal, they never switched on. Stupid fouls allowed Juventus to milk the clock (a certain irony in seeing Atletico players frustrated by the tactic...).
We haven't seen this Juventus all season. Watching things come together was a sheer joy. Ronaldo will get all of the press, but goddamn if Bernardeschi didn't have his best match in the shirt. Spinazzola stepped in and up beautifully in what could have been a terrifying baptism. It was comprehensive.
We haven't seen this Juventus all season. Watching things come together was a sheer joy. Ronaldo will get all of the press, but goddamn if Bernardeschi didn't have his best match in the shirt. Spinazzola stepped in and up beautifully in what could have been a terrifying baptism. It was comprehensive.
Agreed and you watch enough and you just feel the turnover or awkward clearance leading to a corner in your bones. Just feels like a mistake you get punished for sometimes
This is probably a @bosox4283 question - does Koke usually play at wide right midfielder in the 4-4-2 setup? Or similar to Juanfran moving to LB, was he there to give Lemar his preferred position in the team? It never seemed like Koke / Arias were totally comfortable on that side, figured it was more a case of unfamiliarity than anything.
I also have to say, Allegri deployed Emre Can pretty much perfectly - lined up as a central midfielder, slid back to almost right CB in a back 3 to allow Cancelo and Bernardeschi to push forward without fear, broke up a number of potential counter opportunities - it wouldn't have sucked to have him in the Liverpool squad right about now.
Yesterday's match was pretty much the embodiment of everything my Chelsea-supporting cousin couldn't stand about Morata. Poor off-ball play, mediocre work rate, making some ok runs in the limited advanced opportunities Atlético had, but no end product on the chance that would've probably killed the tie.
I also have to say, Allegri deployed Emre Can pretty much perfectly - lined up as a central midfielder, slid back to almost right CB in a back 3 to allow Cancelo and Bernardeschi to push forward without fear, broke up a number of potential counter opportunities - it wouldn't have sucked to have him in the Liverpool squad right about now.
Yeah, and most of all it stood out because of how rarely you see someone on Atlético make a mistake like that. Never in a million years would you have seen Costa or Torres holding up the ball by pushing it backwards into a danger area.
Yesterday's match was pretty much the embodiment of everything my Chelsea-supporting cousin couldn't stand about Morata. Poor off-ball play, mediocre work rate, making some ok runs in the limited advanced opportunities Atlético had, but no end product on the chance that would've probably killed the tie.
I didn’t understand it either. I know Atletico are comfortable defensively and incredibly solid, but it just seemed overly defensive to me. They had very few stretches where they seemed to control the game.
Congrats @SocrManiac. Well-deserved, hard fought comeback. I didn’t have a horse in this race but it was a hell of a fun match to watch.
Very fun match to watch. Congrats to @SocrManiac and sorry to @bosox4283 .
Allegri and Juve definitely deserve credit for sly tactics and performing on a big stage. Dybala has to be looking over his shoulder after that performance from Bernadeschi. Juve have such a deep squad that I have to think Real will try and raid them a bit over the summer. Douglas Costa or Dybala would be shrewd. As for the CR7 reinvention thing, this is the same CR7 we've seen at Real for the past 2-3 seasons. He deserves credit for that transformation, but what was his other transformation?
I'm curious to hear from @bosox4283 on this, but I agree that Cholo got his tactics wrong on this one. If you know Juanfran is out of position and is going to be dealing with CR7, don't you protect him with a CB shading hard to his side or with Saul/Rodri? Another possibility - play your young excellent CBs (i.e. the faster and more comfortable at LB of Savic and Gimenez) at LB a la Vertonghen at LB. With Juve needing to come out aggressive yesterday, Thomas instead of Morata would've made a bit of sense. Let Lemar get higher while still helping in MF and giving the backline more protection while controlling the middle of the park a bit better. But hey, it's football, everyone's got an opinion.
Allegri and Juve definitely deserve credit for sly tactics and performing on a big stage. Dybala has to be looking over his shoulder after that performance from Bernadeschi. Juve have such a deep squad that I have to think Real will try and raid them a bit over the summer. Douglas Costa or Dybala would be shrewd. As for the CR7 reinvention thing, this is the same CR7 we've seen at Real for the past 2-3 seasons. He deserves credit for that transformation, but what was his other transformation?
I'm curious to hear from @bosox4283 on this, but I agree that Cholo got his tactics wrong on this one. If you know Juanfran is out of position and is going to be dealing with CR7, don't you protect him with a CB shading hard to his side or with Saul/Rodri? Another possibility - play your young excellent CBs (i.e. the faster and more comfortable at LB of Savic and Gimenez) at LB a la Vertonghen at LB. With Juve needing to come out aggressive yesterday, Thomas instead of Morata would've made a bit of sense. Let Lemar get higher while still helping in MF and giving the backline more protection while controlling the middle of the park a bit better. But hey, it's football, everyone's got an opinion.
Today's matches both come in with 0-0 first legs. Lyon visit Camp Nou with a scoring draw getting them through. Barca have been on pretty great form recently. Arthur returning allows the team to play the 4-3-3 effectively and Coutinho has been resurgent for almost a month. Semedo has cemented himself as a bona fide option at RB, allowing Roberto to get more time in MF. Umtiti has returned bolstering the depth at CB. Even Vidal had one of his best matches recently. The one big question today is whether Dembele is good to go. Personally, I'd roll with Coutinho in the 4-3-3:
Makes All The Saves
Alba-Pique-Lenglet (don't trust Big Sam quite yet)-Roberto (just slightly more solid than Semedo still while offering only a bit less)
Rak-Busi-Arthur
Messi-Luis-Coutinho
If Barca need to chase the match a bit, sub on Dembele for Coutinho (straight switch keeping the 4-3-3) or for Arthur (switch to a 4-2-3-1). If the result is looking favorable, Vidal can be subbed to bolster the MF.
I'll let the Scousers fill us in on the Pool-Bayern matchup in Bavaria.
Makes All The Saves
Alba-Pique-Lenglet (don't trust Big Sam quite yet)-Roberto (just slightly more solid than Semedo still while offering only a bit less)
Rak-Busi-Arthur
Messi-Luis-Coutinho
If Barca need to chase the match a bit, sub on Dembele for Coutinho (straight switch keeping the 4-3-3) or for Arthur (switch to a 4-2-3-1). If the result is looking favorable, Vidal can be subbed to bolster the MF.
I'll let the Scousers fill us in on the Pool-Bayern matchup in Bavaria.
I guess? What exactly was the transformation there? He was an all-world terrorizing inverted winger. What did he change? He certainly matured, got stronger, more confident, etc. but from what I remember nothing as substantial as his transformation from that same inverted winger to his current iteration.
One thing that sticks out to me is his use of the ball at his feet. At United he was getting clobbered by defenders ignoring his feet and just going through him to the ball. At Real, something was beaten into his head that flashiness and embarrassing defenders was going to shorten his career. It's the exact lesson that Neymar can't seem to learn.
I don't remember him being such a great header of the ball at United, but my memory could be flawed.
For United he played on the right wing (except in the Champions League final vs Chelsea) who beat players with pace and trickery. He went to Real and played on the left (as you said, inverted) and become a much more efficient goal scorer and, again as you said, used his strength to bully wing backs and cut inside. During his first few seasons at Real he did not want to play through the middle because he had a hard time matching the physicality of most center backs. As SM also just stated, his aerial game has improved greatly.
I think you're seeing this through light blue colored glasses. He's changed his game twice. Maybe once out of necessity of getting older, but still. The most incredible stat I saw this morning? He's the only player with 50 or more Champions League goals to score more in the knockout rounds than the group stage.
I think you're seeing this through light blue colored glasses. He's changed his game twice. Maybe once out of necessity of getting older, but still. The most incredible stat I saw this morning? He's the only player with 50 or more Champions League goals to score more in the knockout rounds than the group stage.