USMNT: Hold My Beer

Tony C

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[/QUOTE]
OK I missed a few, doesn't really change the point that the Iranian team as a whole hasn't shown any intention for a mass statement and certainly wasn't waiting on the USMNT to get involved
I'm glad you decided to become a spokesperson for Iran (and then accuse others of white savior syndrome -- maybe look into the mirror for that?) and then admit that you've "missed a few" but then go on to insist they haven't shown any intention of making a mass statement when they have already made just such a mass statement. If I were you rather than continuing the silliness I'd follow InstaFace's lead and end the tangent.
 

DJnVa

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And they did it in a way that was likely insulting to a number of Iranians who don't support the current regime.
Doesn't the government of Iran block social media? I doubt anyone in the country outside of the government knew anything about this.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm glad you decided to become a spokesperson for Iran (and then accuse others of white savior syndrome -- maybe look into the mirror for that?) and then admit that you've "missed a few" but then go on to insist they haven't shown any intention of making a mass statement when they have already made just such a mass statement. If I were you rather than continuing the silliness I'd follow InstaFace's lead and end the tangent.
[/QUOTE]
I'll end the tangent, but I did not speak for Iran, I said that the US shouldn't, and there has been no mass statement, 2 of 20 players made personal statements, certainly wildly different than the team kneeling etc.

Anyway, I think Instaface and I just have different feelings on when it is appropriate to involve ourselves in the internal aituations of other countries via sport and it's not going anywhere. It's all hypothetical anyway since it would never happen.
 

Cellar-Door

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no, you didn't pretend to speak for Iranians at all:
Lol, seriously? I need to post receipts for the statement that some Iranians may find it insulting to deface their flag? I mean c'mon, that's just silly, we know how seriously people take national symbols and religious symbols, and I didn't claim it was all Iranians, or that I spoke for them, simply that there was a chance that they found that insulting (which I'm positive the USSF has no idea if they do or not). The entire phrasing is built to make it clear that I am not speaking for them or assuming what they feel, but rather noting that based on how the world works there it is likely at least some people would be insulted by that action by an outsider.

My entire point is that the United States Soccer Federation isn't the group that should be making decisions on how the Iran national team reacts to or protests their own government, and that dumb social media trolling is dumb, especially on things like national symbols, especially from a group that had a policy preventing their own players from protesting during the anthem.
 
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67YAZ

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I’m a huge Rapinoe fan & a backer of the USWNT’s well thought out advocacy, which is almost always focused on domestic issues and reflects the collective opinions of the large majority of the team. Though Hinkle refusing to wear the rainbow numbered jersey shows the difficulties in this approach.

While the USMNT has some very thoughtful young men in its ranks, it has not shown the same engagement and consideration around controversial issues. I don’t trust them as a team to make any kind of statement here unless they are following the explicit requests of the Iranian team.

It was only a year and a half ago that the US Soccer Athletes Council dumped Seth Jahn for his racist rant about players not standing for the anthem. And Jahn had a number of ties with USMNT players - remember it was Jahn’s IG post about killing Antifa that stirred up shit when Pulisic liked it.

TL;DR I don’t trust this USMNT to come up with any kind of solidarity action on the fly in the middle of the tournament that doesn’t turn into a shitshow in any of several different ways - Pulisic saying he doesn’t really understand what was going on, the Iranians saying that it was unwanted and unhelpful, etc.
 
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Yo La Tengo

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Speaking of coaches, watching Canada get spanked yesterday made me briefly pause to appreciate not being eliminated after 2 games. Obviously, Canada had a really tough schedule, but, the "F Croatia" comment seemed to backfire as did the halftime substitutions.

Semi-related, I get very strong Jordan Peterson vibes from John Herdman.

So, there's my backhanded compliment to Berhalter.
 

teddykgb

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Although I wish Berhalter had experimented with false 9 kind of setups and that he were considering it, from a man management standpoint he really can’t open that door if he’s not going to do it next match. He’s got a bunch of strikers in that dressing room he needs to keep motivated
 

CreightonGubanich

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I'd love to see them utilize any of several of the false-9 setups suggested in this thread; personally, my pick would be to have Pulisic play centrally as the 9 with Reyna and Weah on the wings. But that clearly isn't in the US's tactical bag for this tournament.

I think the best we can hope for is a shot for Ferreira at the 9, anticipating that we'll be playing against a set Iran defense for much of the match. I think Ferreira's their best bet to make the clever, incisive pass that frees up Pulisic or Weah behind the defense. I'd probably rather see Reyna than Weah on the right, but Weah's played really well so I really can't complain as long as we see Reyna at some point.
 

InstaFace

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Speaking of coaches, watching Canada get spanked yesterday made me briefly pause to appreciate not being eliminated after 2 games. Obviously, Canada had a really tough schedule, but, the "F Croatia" comment seemed to backfire as did the halftime substitutions.

Semi-related, I get very strong Jordan Peterson vibes from John Herdman.

So, there's my backhanded compliment to Berhalter.
Yes, it's easy to underrate good defense, much like it is in the NBA, when so much attention is put on the scoring and there's a bit of a fatalistic "what can ya do?" about giving up scores. Which is what makes this team's defensive cohesion and consistency that much more important. Berhalter has gotten a lot of crap from a lot of corners, even among the USMNT-fan intelligentsia, for his lack of inventiveness and flexibility on our offense. But he has correspondingly not gotten nearly enough credit for having our defense be an iron vise relative to previous iterations of our modern team.

Just looking at CONCACAF World Cup qualifying in the "Hex era", 1998-present, so a consistent level of competition where all teams are trying their hardest, here are our goals-allowed per game:

1998: 0.88
2002: 0.69
2006: 0.61 (so no, it's not super predictive of World Cup performance, but little is)
2010: 0.89
2014: 0.88
2018: 1.00
2022: 0.71

This qualification cycle, a team only put up 2 goals on us when we were trying our hardest (so excluding the last match where we were basically already qualified) once, which was Canada away. And in past cycles our stats were often padded by 6 (or even 8) games against inferior competition in a semifinal stage, with only 10 games of the Hex (as opposed to 14 in the Ocho this time).

Or take the Gold Cup, here's goals allowed in the competition, which was across 6 games since 2005: (bold = champions)

2002: 1
2003: 4
2005: 3
2007: 3

2009: 8
2011: 6
2013: 4
2015: 5
2017: 4
2019: 2
2021: 1

I'm sure there are some advanced metrics which look at xG allowed and then adjust for opponent quality and competition context, but I can't find any easily. Japan did put 2 in on us in the september friendly, but they also just went on to beat Germany a few days ago, and in that friendly, Aaron Long played himself off of starting and Sam Vines played himself off of the roster, so our defense was more suspect than usual. The point is, Berhalter has made this team really really hard to score on, even when we don't have our first-choice defenders in there, even including Tyler Adams (absent for 2021 Gold Cup). It won't be much comfort if we again fail to score tomorrow, but it's something we need to remember before critiquing his choices, because it's a massive and easily-overlooked asset this team has.

At least two of the Croatian goals against Canada yesterday (The 2nd and the 4th) looked to me as if they were eminently avoidable by better defense or better defensive tactics. I'd like to think that we lose that game 1-2 in the absolute worst, and have way more of a chance of getting a result against them than Canada did. Which we will need desperately if we beat Iran tomorrow and go on to play the Netherlands in R16.
 

teddykgb

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You’re not wrong that the defending deserves credit but if we again fail to score tomorrow one would have to question the balance. It’s great to not concede but if the only way to accomplish that is to risk too little in attack to consistently score then you’re basically doing the same thing you described about attack above but for defending. Racking up numbers that look good but aren’t really conducive to winning in high level competition
 

Titans Bastard

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I think starting a false 9 in this game would be exactly the sort of tactical "cuteness" for which Berhalter is often justly criticized.
 

DJnVa

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Berhalter responds to the Wynalda comments

Wynalda appeared to back off a bit, or at least, clarify:


From the article:

Berhalter wasn’t asked about the claims in his press conference after the England game, but was asked on Monday if there was any rift between him and Gio Reyna and if he had, as Wynalda alleged, lied to media and instructed Reyna to tell reporters that he was hurt after the Wales match.

“Speaking of the four-year journey, right, there’s been also four years of interacting with you guys (the press contingent). And what I’d say is, you know, I’ll leave it to you to decide if I asked Gio to lie about it,” Berhalter said. “That’s just not who I am. That’s not what I represent. So, you know, if you have to take Eric’s word or my word or whatever, feel free, but I know what happened, that’s not what I represent. Like every other person, Gio is a member of this team that we care deeply for and we know can help the team. It’s a matter of when he can help us and how he can help us.”
Multiple sources familiar with the team’s dynamic who were granted anonymity in order to speak about internal issues told The Athletic that Wynalda’s claims don’t appear to be having any effect on the players. Another characterized it as nothing more than a parent, Claudio, being frustrated by a lack of playing time for his son, Gio.
 

Titans Bastard

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In case it wasn’t abundantly clear to everyone, Eric Wynalda is an attention-seeking clown.
 

InstaFace

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And for more on Wynalda being an attention-seeking clown, but also for a good retrospective to burn up the minutes between now and kickoff tomorrow, may I recommend ESPN's oral history of the 1998 World Cup USA-Iran match?

https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world-cup/story/4812270/oral-history-of-usa-iran-1998-world-cup-interviewsphotos

You can pair it with Scuffed's episode reviewing the actual game with more observations on the actual gameplay, but either way that article is a pretty good look back. And you're reading it, and a lot of the people involved sound like relatively mature adults looking back on the whole thing... and then there's Eric Wynalda, the Bart Simpson of the school chorus.
 

InstaFace

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Pulling this over from the ENG-USA gamethread courtesy @singaporesoxfan , here's how the Group B outcomes stack up today:



So on present evidence, if we beat Iran, we get Netherlands in the R16, but if Wales somehow also wins, we will get Senegal

(barring an Ecuador or Qatar comeback in the second half, and barring crazy results like USA by 5 goals or Wales by 4 goals).
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Pulling this over from the ENG-USA gamethread courtesy @singaporesoxfan , here's how the Group B outcomes stack up today:



So on present evidence, if we beat Iran, we get Netherlands in the R16, but if Wales somehow also wins, we will get Senegal

(barring an Ecuador or Qatar comeback in the second half, and barring crazy results like USA by 5 goals or Wales by 4 goals).
I hadn't focused on the fact that a draw does not necessarily put Iran through. So I guess so long as the other game is tied, or especially if Wales takes a lead, Iran cannot exactly sit back without risk.
 

Cellar-Door

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Positives:
1. The big one... they made it through
2. The defense has been generally quite good.
3. Our pace is really giving teams trouble.
4. The midfield is strong and deep.

Negatives:
1. Still can't score at all
2. Another match where they came out hot then ran out of gas in the 2nd half.
3. Adjustments/Subs.
4. Health? Sargent and Pulisic both injured one or both may miss Saturday.
 
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Kliq

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It's all gravy for me going forward. This was a promising team coming off an all-time low with the failure to qualify in 2018. For all the faults of Berhalter, US soccer development, individual players, and everyone else, they managed to accomplish a lot. A team of talented players was assembled and developed, growth was achieved both in MLS becoming more competitive and also sending more players to playing at bigger clubs in Europe. They qualified with limited drama, and then got through the group stage, without conceding a single goal from open play.

Making the KO stage four years after the disaster of 2018 is a great achievement, and everyone should be proud. It's hard for me to really think of NEGATIVES right now. While they certainly exist, and we can always stand to do better, now is a great moment to reflect on the growth of the USMNT over the last few years, and the work and effort that everyone has done to get things back on track.
 

DJnVa

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Making the KO stage four years after the disaster of 2018 is a great achievement, and everyone should be proud. It's hard for me to really think of NEGATIVES right now.
Yep--but being honest, every team has them. So, if that's what folks choose to focus on...that's on them.

Only 3 teams are 2-0 in this tournament.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It's all gravy for me going forward. This was a promising team coming off an all-time low with the failure to qualify in 2018. For all the faults of Berhalter, US soccer development, individual players, and everyone else, they managed to accomplish a lot. A team of talented players was assembled and developed, growth was achieved both in MLS becoming more competitive and also sending more players to playing at bigger clubs in Europe. They qualified with limited drama, and then got through the group stage, without conceding a single goal from open play.

Making the KO stage four years after the disaster of 2018 is a great achievement, and everyone should be proud. It's hard for me to really think of NEGATIVES right now. While they certainly exist, and we can always stand to do better, now is a great moment to reflect on the growth of the USMNT over the last few years, and the work and effort that everyone has done to get things back on track.
Just won on demand in the third game of the group stage at a world cup against a side that got through with a draw.

With the compressed schedule and enforcement added time for all stoppages they played 315 minutes in 9 days in a group that turns out to have been pretty good and they went through. There was not a single moment played where their position was not precarious. That is true of most teams in the world cup, although often you can go through with some moments of respite. There were zero moments of respite. They lost two good possession guys today and were so mentally exhausted they could not keep possession, but they kept the damned ball out of the net. The guy who gave away the penalty that led to the only goal they have conceded in the opening round was a hero sub who basically held the line while his teammates were barely able to run 5 yards from exhaustion.

No negatives for me today. Zero. They fucking did it. It is really fucking hard to get to the world cup and really fucking hard to get out of the group.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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It's all gravy for me going forward. This was a promising team coming off an all-time low with the failure to qualify in 2018. For all the faults of Berhalter, US soccer development, individual players, and everyone else, they managed to accomplish a lot. A team of talented players was assembled and developed, growth was achieved both in MLS becoming more competitive and also sending more players to playing at bigger clubs in Europe. They qualified with limited drama, and then got through the group stage, without conceding a single goal from open play.

Making the KO stage four years after the disaster of 2018 is a great achievement, and everyone should be proud. It's hard for me to really think of NEGATIVES right now. While they certainly exist, and we can always stand to do better, now is a great moment to reflect on the growth of the USMNT over the last few years, and the work and effort that everyone has done to get things back on track.
We've spent a lot of my life, maybe all of it, trying to figure out how tf America could put its athletic machine to good use when it came to this sport. And we'd end up putting all of our hopes on finding a single transcendent player and watching grainy YouTube footage of guys like Ged Zelalem tooling on kids and fist pumping the Michael Bradleys of the world (a very good player, to be fair) for things like running more miles than anyone else in a tournament.

It has taken time, and some luck, and some good recruiting, and a lot of work on the domestic league and youth dev programs, but it FINALLY feels like we have a real foundation to build on rather than just a generation of good players like the '02 squad, which caught lightning in a bottle but got quite lucky with its 3rd match result and R2 draw of Mexico and was followed by a disastrous '06 WC and the Bradley-Landon-Deuce teams which culminated in an even more disastrous '18 campaign. There is real quality in the roster, and confidence that we are continuing to build depth through class after class of young guys coming up through a development system that has figured some shit out. Not that it will be a straight line to the top by any means, but whatever happens Saturday I feel immeasurably better about where things are headed from here than I have at any other point in my life.
 

Yo La Tengo

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What happened to Yedlin?

Moore and Wright did not perform well off the bench.

Any injury reports on Pulisic and Sargent?

I'm really hoping Pulisic can play so the US can put the best possible team on the field this Saturday. The Netherlands looked vulnerable against Senegal, played better against Ecuador in a high intensity game that ended in a draw, and I don't think much can be learned from the game with Qatar today. In short, the Netherlands will definitely be favored but they have not looked invincible thus far.
 

Zomp

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I think the last few posts talking about the state of USMNT soccer put it in to words better than I have.

As someone whose soccer watching is basically 99% UEFA leagues and competitions, there was always a visual difference between the way we played vs other nations. Maybe its a bit to flippant to just say it was athlete ball but thats what it felt like. Sure, there were always exceptions like Donovan, Dempsey, etc... but it just felt like the game was easier to the nations we faced. A few pages ago tmracht said it was the "freest" he's seen the team play in quite some time. Maybe thats it. But I feel like this is the first World Cup where we look like we belong with some of the best teams. Will we ever be favored in a knockout game? Unlikely. But it doesn't mean our game plan has to be to hope for some fluky bounces and knock in an ugly goal.

That's what was so encouraging about the England game. We not only outplayed them but we bossed the game. Today for the first 60 minutes or so it was the same. The first half was all we could hope for.

This is the best and balanced midfield I can remember. Musa and Mckennie driving the ball forward with Adams cleaning up whatever breaks start before they can develop.

Maybe the gamethreads aren't the best place to get a good reaction of the state of our team...but from reading some of the posts in there you'd think we were heading backwards. I dunno. I'm enjoying the ride for the first time in a long time. Whatever happens on Saturday, and I do like our chances, I'm proud and happy of how we're developing.


If Pulisic can go, I think you run with the same lineup as England. If he can't, you start Aaronson in his place.

I know a lot of people are pining for Reyna but I get a little bit of Van De Beek vibes in that the more he doesn't play the better he becomes. In the knockouts, where if we advance we'll be an underdog in every game, we're not going to boss possession and need industrious players in. There's really no fit for a false 9 right now in the current set up. If we have to chase the game and roll the dice, you can sub Gio in for Mckennie once he fades but I think Gio needs to play off someone.
 

SocrManiac

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John Henry should have rooting interests in the US and for Liverpool. Can we get him to drum up a reason to recall Van Dijk to Liverpool training?
 

blueguitar322

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I think the last few posts talking about the state of USMNT soccer put it in to words better than I have.

As someone whose soccer watching is basically 99% UEFA leagues and competitions, there was always a visual difference between the way we played vs other nations. Maybe its a bit to flippant to just say it was athlete ball but thats what it felt like. Sure, there were always exceptions like Donovan, Dempsey, etc... but it just felt like the game was easier to the nations we faced. A few pages ago tmracht said it was the "freest" he's seen the team play in quite some time. Maybe thats it. But I feel like this is the first World Cup where we look like we belong with some of the best teams. Will we ever be favored in a knockout game? Unlikely. But it doesn't mean our game plan has to be to hope for some fluky bounces and knock in an ugly goal.

That's what was so encouraging about the England game. We not only outplayed them but we bossed the game. Today for the first 60 minutes or so it was the same. The first half was all we could hope for.

This is the best and balanced midfield I can remember. Musa and Mckennie driving the ball forward with Adams cleaning up whatever breaks start before they can develop.

Maybe the gamethreads aren't the best place to get a good reaction of the state of our team...but from reading some of the posts in there you'd think we were heading backwards. I dunno. I'm enjoying the ride for the first time in a long time. Whatever happens on Saturday, and I do like our chances, I'm proud and happy of how we're developing.


If Pulisic can go, I think you run with the same lineup as England. If he can't, you start Aaronson in his place.

I know a lot of people are pining for Reyna but I get a little bit of Van De Beek vibes in that the more he doesn't play the better he becomes. In the knockouts, where if we advance we'll be an underdog in every game, we're not going to boss possession and need industrious players in. There's really no fit for a false 9 right now in the current set up. If we have to chase the game and roll the dice, you can sub Gio in for Mckennie once he fades but I think Gio needs to play off someone.
Great post. Here's what I posted at halftime...
If they were wearing a different color jersey with a different country's name on it, you might be able to convince me that the US was actually England or (this year's version of) Germany or another big but not top national side. Playing really well and bossing every phase. Just a bit wasteful in the final third.
Now obviously the US ran out of gas halfway through the second half, but the first half was an overall level of play that I don't ever recall seeing from the US before. Not too dissimilar from what I saw of Netherlands vs Qatar earlier in the day, despite Netherlands being a better team than the US and Qatar being significantly worse than Iran.
 

Yo La Tengo

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I think the last few posts talking about the state of USMNT soccer put it in to words better than I have.

But I feel like this is the first World Cup where we look like we belong with some of the best teams. Will we ever be favored in a knockout game? Unlikely. But it doesn't mean our game plan has to be to hope for some fluky bounces and knock in an ugly goal.
It is interesting how many of the top players on this team were born or grew up abroad or have parents from other countries (Musah, Dest, McKennie, Robinson, Reyna, Weah, CCV, Ferreria...). Expanding the talent pool, and getting dual national players to play for the US, has had a massive impact. In other news, Giuseppe Rossi feels like a long time ago.
 

joe dokes

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Now obviously the US ran out of gas halfway through the second half, but the first half was an overall level of play that I don't ever recall seeing from the US before. Not too dissimilar from what I saw of Netherlands vs Qatar earlier in the day, despite Netherlands being a better team than the US and Qatar being significantly worse than Iran.
Isnt that likely a depth issue, which is what you'd expect at this point on the curve? You need 16(?) solid field players; US has 13 or 14(?)
 

joe dokes

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Pulisic let people near him, which I wouldn't do if my balls were broken. So either he's kinda OK, or he's got some great painkillers.
 

DJnVa

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Here's the highlights--90 minutes in 90 seconds.

The US created a number of half chances--perhaps Saturday they put these together:

11th: Pulisic weak header, but someone running through with him and a knockdown header works
17th: Dest with low cross just beyond Weah, then palmed away by keeper, with Pulisic at far post if keeper missed it
28th: Sargent's shot deflected, Weah alone, but headed instead of possibly having time to touch and finish, as keeper was backing up
33rd: Sargent lays off to Weah, who blasts over from 10 yards
38th: GOAL
52nd: Weah puts it in net, but just offside

Notice that these were ALL in first half and 4 of the 6 involved Weah.

View: https://twitter.com/USMNT/status/1597707662858530816
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I think the last few posts talking about the state of USMNT soccer put it in to words better than I have.

As someone whose soccer watching is basically 99% UEFA leagues and competitions, there was always a visual difference between the way we played vs other nations. Maybe its a bit to flippant to just say it was athlete ball but thats what it felt like. Sure, there were always exceptions like Donovan, Dempsey, etc... but it just felt like the game was easier to the nations we faced. A few pages ago tmracht said it was the "freest" he's seen the team play in quite some time. Maybe thats it. But I feel like this is the first World Cup where we look like we belong with some of the best teams. Will we ever be favored in a knockout game? Unlikely. But it doesn't mean our game plan has to be to hope for some fluky bounces and knock in an ugly goal.

That's what was so encouraging about the England game. We not only outplayed them but we bossed the game. Today for the first 60 minutes or so it was the same. The first half was all we could hope for.

This is the best and balanced midfield I can remember. Musa and Mckennie driving the ball forward with Adams cleaning up whatever breaks start before they can develop.

Maybe the gamethreads aren't the best place to get a good reaction of the state of our team...but from reading some of the posts in there you'd think we were heading backwards. I dunno. I'm enjoying the ride for the first time in a long time. Whatever happens on Saturday, and I do like our chances, I'm proud and happy of how we're developing.


If Pulisic can go, I think you run with the same lineup as England. If he can't, you start Aaronson in his place.

I know a lot of people are pining for Reyna but I get a little bit of Van De Beek vibes in that the more he doesn't play the better he becomes. In the knockouts, where if we advance we'll be an underdog in every game, we're not going to boss possession and need industrious players in. There's really no fit for a false 9 right now in the current set up. If we have to chase the game and roll the dice, you can sub Gio in for Mckennie once he fades but I think Gio needs to play off someone.
Great post Zomp.

I don't follow USMNT nearly as closely as some others in this forum but this is the best team I've seen and I include the 2002 team in that. The technical level has just really gone up throughout most of the first XI and I think the game has also evolved in ways that are actually pretty friendly to the US and its historical strength in terms of having a pretty athletic squad. That Musah, McKennie, Adams midfield may not match others in terms of technical quality but they all clearly understand how to play modern midfield tactics and I don't think you'll find many midfields out there that can match them for athleticism. Now that we have players who also have the quality and composure to keep and use the ball once they win it (which didnt use to be the case), having an uber-athletic midfield really can be a way to control and even boss other sides that are supposedly better than us on paper.

The biggest remaining issue for the team IMO is that we still lack a quality in attack. We really struggle to convert control over the match into chances and then into goals. But its a huge accomplishment just to get to the point where we can control matches against good sides, dictating the flow of the match while preventing them from doing what they want to do. I've never really seen a US team capable of that before.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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A thing that didn’t sink in for me until replays and discourse was also the nature of the goal. Not transition, not a counterpress. A full-on starting with Turner ending with the ball in the other net move which was, honestly, pretty Berhaltery.