USMNT: To Rüssia With Love
- Thread starter Titans Bastard
- Start date
I do not, ever, think "coaching" is the problem when I see performances from players that are far below their usual standard. There is not one player from the '14 WC squad who has taken a clear, definitive step forward since. Every one of them, IMO, has taken at least one - and in some cases, several - steps backward. Since the end of the WC, one new player has shown a capacity to play at this level - Zardes.
That's not coaching. I think it is very, very easy to blame a coach because it is easy to fire a coach. But this is on the senior level players, IMO. (I trust your judgement on anything below the senior level - if you say the problem there is coaching, I cannot dispute it because I have not watched.)
Michael Bradley has regressed since leaving Europe. Clint Dempsey, Beckerman, and Beasley have aged out of effectiveness. Jozy Altidore is a shadow of the guy who once looked promising in the Eredivisie. Guys like Diskerud and Bedoya have regressed. Johannsson, Besler, Gonzalez, and Brooks have all struggled with injuries or ineffectiveness. Bad Guzan has sucked. Howard "retired" and then looked like shit. Fabian Johnson has outright quit playing on the pitch and had to be sent home. Chandler has so little commitment to the team concept they shouldn't even bother calling him in.
The one possible exception - that proves my point - is Geoff Cameron. Stayed in England, fought for his spot, didn't take the easy money and the easier competition, and hasn't outright sucked.
Which players are you prepared to blame?
The tragedy of this is that it didn't have to go down this way. Don Garber and MLS torpedoed the USMNT program for several cycles by giving away DP contracts like candy. MLS sabotaged any chance the USMNT had at a competitive player pool - by bringing home all these "stars", MLS took away minutes from prospects and gave them to the likes of Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard. MLS created a stagnant, "fat & happy" player pool where no one fights for minutes or a job. If you are American, and you make the USMNT roster, you get a cushy contract and your name in the marketing program.
Lastly, I hope there's a plan, or Gulati should be shot out of cannon into the sun for being so incompetent and feckless. Reforming the way coaches are trained, and players identified - as you've written about extensively - should be priority #1 and it seems like that is happening based on some of the links in this thread.
Klinsmann lost his battle to Garber & MLS and saw his chances of a WC contender vanish - and was pissed about it. Maybe that's resulted in some MLS prospects not getting called in - I don't know. I watch MLS and never see anyone worth shit. YMMV. Lee Nguyen is a nice player in MLS who is hopelessly overmatched against Germany's D team. That a kid out of Stanford is the best prospect the USMNT has is a huge fucking indictment of USA Soccer's incestuous and disastrous "partnership" with MLS.
But if it's part of a long term plan to grow the game domestically, overhaul the coaching and training pipelines, develop a decent league where players can grow...then yeah, in 20 years America might have a chance to be competitive again in a WC. That's depressing - but barring an American Messi - I don't know how anyone can conclude otherwise.
When I observe national team player performance declining nearly across the board including young players, foreign-based players, and MLS players, I look at the coach of the national team. I believe that the player pool's relative weakness has simply given Klinsmann cover for his other failings.
No one will be convinced here, so I'll just agree to disagree.
Fair enough. I can't buy that a national team coach is responsible for player performance & development. That's 1. the player, 2. the club where the player spends 90% of his time.
Blaming Klinsmann for Michael Bradley regressing is like blaming Ned Yost's managing in the All-Star game for someone's second half slump.
Blaming Klinsmann for Michael Bradley regressing is like blaming Ned Yost's managing in the All-Star game for someone's second half slump.
If T&T had a top-1,000 striker in the world this game would be 2-0 at least.
We're beatable for sure, but it seems perhaps the T&T coach has decided, instead of any fancy tactics, his best game plan is "try to hurt Jones whenever possible".
Pretty sure Kenwyne Wilfork is a top-1000 striker in the world. Fortunately he keeps laying off the ball for other guys.
I'm legitimately curious how your autocorrect turned an attempt to type Jones into Wilfork.
I'd give you shit for your pedantry in the face of hyperbole but I'm not feeling it.
Yeah...I think this is far from a disaster, as T&T has really improved and are tough at home.
It may not be a bad point just looking to advance through this qualifying round, but it sure doesn't look good given the expectations JK has(d?) on him.
It may not be a bad point just looking to advance through this qualifying round, but it sure doesn't look good given the expectations JK has(d?) on him.
I'm curious to see confirmation and more details about this:
I thought this was a good summary of our youth woes. Charlie Boehm is a one of the more insightful voices in the YNT scene.
http://www.soccerwire.com/blog-posts/jurgen-klinsmann-said-u-s-national-teams-are-making-big-strides-big-steps-forward-heres-why-thats-a-problem/
I thought this was a good summary of our youth woes. Charlie Boehm is a one of the more insightful voices in the YNT scene.
http://www.soccerwire.com/blog-posts/jurgen-klinsmann-said-u-s-national-teams-are-making-big-strides-big-steps-forward-heres-why-thats-a-problem/
They're also endorsed by Albert Haynesworth.
Hoover is totally sucking up the biggest athlete endorsers of 2004.
Hoover is totally sucking up the biggest athlete endorsers of 2004.
Fabian Johnson with a very good game for Gladbach at home against Sevilla. If they win, they have a chance for Europa League qualification. It´s 2-0 now with 15mins to play.
Johnson with a great goal to make it 2-0 (if i just knew how to include vines). Gets a pass across the box, cuts back with the first touch (left foot) and curls it high into the far top corner with right foot. Really a nice goal.
Johnson with a great goal to make it 2-0 (if i just knew how to include vines). Gets a pass across the box, cuts back with the first touch (left foot) and curls it high into the far top corner with right foot. Really a nice goal.
Richie Williams hasn't been fired yet, but it looks like he's being buried. The U15 coach John Hackworth is coaching the U17 team at the Nike friendlies right now. I suspect that Williams is being allowed to ride out his contract, which probably expires at the end of the year.
I can only hope that Hackworth is a caretaker. He has an unsuccessful spell with the U17s in the mid-2000s, failing upward into jobs as USMNT assistant and Philadelphia Union assistant. When Peter Nowak was fired, he took the reins of the Union in June of 2012 and did not accomplish much before being relieved of his duties two years later.
The U17 job is not one that is likely to appeal to top foreign youth coaches, but that doesn't mean the only choice is a retread's retread. The least that can be done is identify an up-and-coming domestic youth coach who has shown some development skills. Like Hugo Perez, but -- oops! -- the USSF fired him last year.
I can only hope that Hackworth is a caretaker. He has an unsuccessful spell with the U17s in the mid-2000s, failing upward into jobs as USMNT assistant and Philadelphia Union assistant. When Peter Nowak was fired, he took the reins of the Union in June of 2012 and did not accomplish much before being relieved of his duties two years later.
The U17 job is not one that is likely to appeal to top foreign youth coaches, but that doesn't mean the only choice is a retread's retread. The least that can be done is identify an up-and-coming domestic youth coach who has shown some development skills. Like Hugo Perez, but -- oops! -- the USSF fired him last year.
- The USSF announced friendlies against Iceland on Jan 31 and Canada on Feb 5. The usual January camp fare; no one will have full strength teams due to it not being a FIFA date.
- USSF youth program incompetence note #1: There's a possibility that the U-23s won't meet at all until the Olympic playoff home-and-home against Colombia. We were doomed enough as it was.
- USSF youth program incompetence note #2: John Hackworth is rumored to be the frontrunner to replace Richie Williams as U17 coach. He's a retread who coached the U17s unsuccessfully in the past. His teams have basically no attacking ideas and one was notorious for their reliance on the long throw. Grim stuff. If you can't hire a decent coach for Bradenton, please just shut the whole thing down.
- Landon Donovan chimes in on the "foreign player" issue raised by Wambach. Additional commentary on his Twitter timeline.
- USSF youth program incompetence note #1: There's a possibility that the U-23s won't meet at all until the Olympic playoff home-and-home against Colombia. We were doomed enough as it was.
- USSF youth program incompetence note #2: John Hackworth is rumored to be the frontrunner to replace Richie Williams as U17 coach. He's a retread who coached the U17s unsuccessfully in the past. His teams have basically no attacking ideas and one was notorious for their reliance on the long throw. Grim stuff. If you can't hire a decent coach for Bradenton, please just shut the whole thing down.
- Landon Donovan chimes in on the "foreign player" issue raised by Wambach. Additional commentary on his Twitter timeline.
Glad Donovan can make himself out to be more of a childish asshole. The US obviously lost to Belgium because the foreign-born players did not care enough.
Imagine how well Jermaine Jones would have played if he cared. If only we had more players like Wondo on the squad.
Imagine how well Jermaine Jones would have played if he cared. If only we had more players like Wondo on the squad.
Do these people just spend their retirement watching Miracle on loop all day? Like this mysterious idea of "identifying as American" imbues players with a magical will to win through togetherness and freedom. Not that Donovan was ever a much-loved player, but this guy has lost all credibility over his transparent anti-Klinsmann act.
As if JK's German-Americans are A) the team's first ever "foreign" players or B) not responsible for much of the team's recent successes.
God help us if this guy ever worms his way into the ranks of the USSF.
And why is Arena getting involved in this as well? If that dipshit really wants the job back I really don't know what the hell we are going to do. This whole thing is just stupid. If people want to get on Klinsmann fine, do it because we haven't produced anything close to the next group of American stars and he came in preaching better youth development. This "real American" stuff is such a stupid sideshow
Institutional dysfunction is a step towards bringing the USSF inline with their foreign counterparts. So, maybe this is progress?
Heh, it's true, this is better than nobody giving a shit and I think most of us can probably remember such a time. Of course, most people likely don't understand this whole thing is just a symptom of the developmental problems Titans Bastard tells us about with every new post about some terrible hire in the youth ranks.
Look, this really isn't that controversial. Some of the stuff Wambach said came across as redneck-y, whatever the intent, but Donovan's first point ("I wouldn't feel as good about it if we had a team full of players that didn't really grow up or didn't really identify as being American") isn't hard to understand. A significant part of what makes international soccer awesome and elevates it above the standard "rooting for laundry" model of pro sports as we're accustomed to them is that you're cheering for your country, and there's a nationalistic element to it, for better or worse. So when I'm trying to get a cheap, harmless patriotic thrill out of watching these games, it's much easier to do that if I'm rooting for guys like Donovan, who was born and raised here, or Carlos Llamosa, who emigrated from Colombia to the US as an adult to work as a janitor, or Hugo Perez, who came here from El Salvador when he was 11. They have a much stronger connection to some readily identifiable aspect of American culture than do guys who have an American parent but have never set foot in the US (at least not until they've joined the national team). Without that connection, we're much closer to rooting for laundry, which I guess is OK, but it clearly loses some of what makes it special. And I'm sure for Donovan, there's another layer on top of that, where he's got a personal emotional investment in the US soccer development system, and outsourcing our development to the German system (without a hell of a lot of tangible gain) craps all over that.
To his other point, about whether the dual nationals are harmful to our success, it's debatable. That being said, the example of Fabian Johnson doesn't disprove what Donovan is saying - his quote isn't insinuating that all dual-nationals are going to lack dedication and be detrimental to team performance, but rather that *some* dual-nationals are going to be like that (and you can infer that he thinks dual-nationals are more likely to be like that than guys who came up through the system are). Sure, there's not hard data to back that up, and there are plenty of examples and counterexamples, but it's not completely out of leftfield to think that a guy who settled for the US as a consolation prize after having his heart set on playing for Germany or France or whoever might be more inclined to half-ass it out there when things get tough. Debatable, but grounded in some sort of logic.
In any case, I think a lot of this also reflects a certain level of frustration with Klinsmann's willingness to give his dual nationals every chance to succeed, even when they appear to be contributing nothing, while burying a number of guys who have come up through the US system and shown promise there.
The bolded is ridiculous and there is no data to back it up, just xenophobic assholes. You realize the pinnacle of the sport is winning the world cup. These players are playing for the US because they want to win the world cup. Name one player who has not tried as hard because he was a duel-national.
Also, what duel-nationals are "contributing nothing" and who has he buried that has shown promise? The best example of youth showing promise during Klinsmann's tenure would be Yedlin and Morris, they have gotten plenty of run.
Timothy Chandler, which is pretty obvious IMO. But no one else comes to mind.
Donovan wrote this:
Whether that matters to on-field performance or team morale, I couldn't say. Donovan did claim that the presence of dual nationals who were less emotionally invested hurt team chemistry. That Donovan has an axe to grind doesn't prove that his opinion is wrong. It doesn't mean that it's right, either.
It's one of those things that we won't really know until Klinsmann is gone and people really start talking.
Wasn't Donovan considered a "locker room cancer"? You are right we won't know the extent till JK is gone, but I trust almost nothing he says about team chemistry.
I personally would not have fond feelings about a guy who took time off from the game during qualification.
I personally would not have fond feelings about a guy who took time off from the game during qualification.
Chandler is an example, but he also happens to play the position we have been so bad at developing that we keep calling ancient Damarcus Beasley back to play it.
There will be so much rhetoric in the wake of JK's eventual departure that it will be difficult to know the real story, especially with Landon leading the charge, eternally bitter over being left off the roster for a German teenager.
There will be so much rhetoric in the wake of JK's eventual departure that it will be difficult to know the real story, especially with Landon leading the charge, eternally bitter over being left off the roster for a German teenager.
JK almost certainly considers Donovan a locker room cancer. But does anyone else? I've gotten the impression that he's far more controversial among fans than he's been among players & coaches, especially later in his career. Certainly, earlier in his career there were players who thought he was arrogant -- because he was -- but I think he's matured since then.
What I like about Donovan is that, even though his voice makes him sound like the most boring guy in the universe, he's remarkably honest about what he thinks and feels. His candor is part of the reason he's widely liked and widely disliked.
He's been open and honest about his homesickness in Germany and gotten killed for that. He's been open and honest about his struggles with mental illness and depression and gotten killed for that, too. I suspect there are a lot more players who deal with the same issues that LD has grappled with. I give him props for being one of the very few to talk about them. It's hard to athletes to acknowledge mental health issues and LD made it a little bit easier for them to do so.
I thought this was a worthwhile read:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2015/01/04/landon-donovans-other-legacy-challenging-stigma-mental-health-word
I disagree with this quote pretty emphatically, but leaving that aside for a moment, if you want to be "strict" about what type of players qualify as being culturally identifiable to you, you need to recognize that this will be a significant obstacle for the the USMNT. There are numerous examples of the best teams in the world accepting dual nationals on their squads (Germany with Klose and Podolski who are Pollocks, Spain with Brazilian Diego Costa and Marcos Senna, Italy with Argentine Camoranesi, etc.). So, if the US doesn't try to take advantage of this technicality, it will be to their detriment.
Donovan is hardly some far-right neanderthal. He was one of the loudest voices in pushing for acceptance of gay athletes in pro sports locker rooms, and for destigmatization of mental health issues in pro sports. (He had serious issues with depression, which is what caused him to take time off -- and which is why people who vilify him for "quitting on the national team during qualifying" need to take a step back and rethink their stance.)
Probably more what's going on is that Donovan, like a lot of people who played and followed soccer in the US back in the dark ages, before it was cool (me included), have this constant siege mentality, because we're used to getting crapped on from within and without, and there's often been this unfair perception in all levels of soccer in the US that anything international is automatically better than anything American. It's a running joke among players who have grown up here, this idea of coaches bringing in random guys from overseas, hyping them up based on some dubious credentials ("This guy played for Benfica's under-12 B team -- he's great!"), and giving them a free pass into the first team because they must be better than a bunch of American scrubs, even when they're not actually any better than (possibly significantly worse than) the guys who have been there all along -- I've seen this everywhere, from my high school team to my college team, to my shitball fifth-division semi-pro team.
The Klinsmann situation is like the God-level version of this ("This guy is tearing it up in the German 4th division -- he's great!"), and rightly or wrongly, it hits a sore spot for a lot of players who feel they've paid their dues over here and aren't any worse, and are maybe significantly better, than the guys who are being brought in from abroad.
Timmy Chandler, as has been brought up. Also, back in the old days, guys like David Wagner and Michael Mason didn't exactly cover themselves in glory.
Brooks and Chandler don't seem to be dramatically better options than the rest of the field in the US, and might be worse. Guys who have been buried (not limited to youth) include Robbie Rogers, Ethan Finlay, Lee Nguyen, Wil Trapp, Benny Feilhaber, Sebastian Lletget, etc., etc.
I'm not saying they shouldn't call up guys who are eligible for the national team just because they don't meet some strict definition of "cultural identifiability" from my personal standpoint. I'm saying it takes some of the fun out of rooting for the team for me personally when they do that, for reasons that I think should be fairly understandable. I should also add that my personal view on "cultural identifiability" is fairly broad and includes pretty much anyone who qualifies under FIFA rules and has spent a significant amount of time in the US for reasons other than being a professional soccer player. (That would cover Podolski and Klose in the Germany example.)
I mean, everyone must have a line somewhere, and it's just a matter of where your line is. If FIFA said it was cool for us to take the German national team as it exists today, slap some US Soccer jerseys on them, and call them the US national team, would you be just as fired up if they won the World Cup?
EDIT: Some clarification in first paragraph.
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You are upset they are playing John Brooks? The guy has the potential to be a great CB and is one of the reasons the US made it out of the group stage.
So of those players who have been "buried", which of their replacements are foreign? None of them play RB, so that is why Chandler made the team.
Also, every player you listed is a midfielder and some of them have gotten run with the national team already. Would you take them over Mix or Jones or F Johnson depending on where he plays?
You can argue about his squad selection, but JK has stuck with American-born players longer than I would like, I can not think of any foreign-born players that he has stuck with except out of positional need.
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The US has always imported players to fill holes. What JK is doing is no different than what Bora did with Thomas Dooley and Earnie Stewart, two guys who make my all-time USA team, by the way.
We made less use of it in the 2000s but we also had better players. Look at the 2002 squad versus Germany...I'm not sure I'm picking a single player from 2015 over their 2002 counterpart.
We made less use of it in the 2000s but we also had better players. Look at the 2002 squad versus Germany...I'm not sure I'm picking a single player from 2015 over their 2002 counterpart.
I'm going to slightly disagree with you. Bringing in someone like Jermaine Jones is like what the US did for their 90s teams. Guys like Tom Dooley and Ernie Stewart were established vets and were clear starters on the team. But when JK brings in a very inexperienced player, it's not the same. I get the logic that he is using, but it's going to rub people who are in the system the wrong way.
This is not a uniquely American conundrum. Every time Portugal has incorporated a naturalized Brazilian to the team (Deco, Liedson, Pepe), there was some push back. Deco was introduced when he was playing at his highest level, but players like Figo openly criticized his inclusion.
This isn't an issue that you are going to get everybody to agree on because it isn't clean cut.
That's not true for Stewart, who got capped at 21.
As for Dooley, he's basically a point in favour of let's not worry about this. Like Jones, Dooley was just a sliver short of being a Germany regular (I think he got hurt right as he was called up for West Germany in the 80s) and he first played for the US when he was 30 and didn't speak any English. And he was one of the best players we've ever had.
If potential in isolation meant a thing, Jovan Kirovski and Freddy Adu would be US soccer legends. Brooks had 10 good minutes against Ghana in the World Cup (primarily due to his offensive contribution, which isn't top of the list among things I'm looking for from a central defender). Then he spent this summer getting worked like a speedbag by average-to-good MLS players in the Gold Cup. I don't need to see any more of him until he's able to show better than that.
Chandler's roster spot isn't like a dedicated slot for a right back. There are guys like Cameron and Yedlin, or Tim Ream in a pinch, who could play RB without any significant compromise to team quality, which would then open up a slot for someone else who warrants a closer look to see if we have something. But even if we were swapping out like for like, it wouldn't kill me to see someone like Brad Evans or even Zach Loyd in there. It's not like Chandler is head-and-shoulders above those guys.
Diskerud, yes. I've seen plenty of him, I know what he is, and I find him pretty ordinary - maybe a prime example of the phenomenon where people overrate our overseas options over our domestic ones. Jones, yes, given that his current level of performance at this age / in this health state is no longer enough to make up for the fact that he's kind of a lunkhead (poor positional discipline, emotionally volatile). Johnson, no.
Whatever run the guys I've listed have gotten has largely been in the form of sporadic minutes, often in garbage time in the odd friendly. Hard to really tell what you have from that.
EDIT: Formatting
This is soccer, not baseball, so age and veterans status is more fluid. By 21, he was in his 3rd season of getting first team run in Holland and had transferred to Willem. The rest of the roster was trying to play their way out of the APSL.
He was playing in the second division before his transfer to Willem II in front of crowds of a few thousand people. And Willem II themselves aren't a big club by Dutch standards.
By the standards of 1990 American soccer, yeah, that made him a rock star, but he wasn't Thomas Dooley. Dooley was the starting midfielder for the Bundesliga champions when he got his first cap.
By the standards of 1990 American soccer, yeah, that made him a rock star, but he wasn't Thomas Dooley. Dooley was the starting midfielder for the Bundesliga champions when he got his first cap.
Ha, I was hoping he was referring to Hamiltons support for using foreign-born players in the American Revolution.
I thought it was a reference to Hamilton himself being something of a dual-national. That post has layers.