Vrabel and Julio Down by the Schoolyard: Titans Get Jones

Thread title needs to be changed to "BB and Julio down by NKEAL HARRY!!1!1!"
In fairness, I did bring Harry up - at least in the context of Pats fans who seem all too happy to trade him to Atlanta. From the (admittedly interesting) discussion here, it sounds like the Patriots ought to have to throw in an extra draft pick to include him in the deal.
 

Saints Rest

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In fairness, I did bring Harry up - at least in the context of Pats fans who seem all too happy to trade him to Atlanta. From the (admittedly interesting) discussion here, it sounds like the Patriots ought to have to throw in an extra draft pick to include him in the deal.
It made sense then. And it was amusing for the first 5-8 posts about Harry's mediocrity. But now this thread that started out debating the value of Jones as a potential Pats trade target has devolved into another long ramble about how much Harry sucks (or might not suck).
 

Van Everyman

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We only get one first-round pick a year?
Some years.


Edelman was playing hurt and was constantly drawing double teams because of the lack of weapons.
BTW is my memory playing tricks or was Edelman’s last play as a Patriot the pick 6 from Cam (or maybe Stidham?) when he let the ball bounce off his hands on the screen?


On Harry, I would point out that he was a first round draft pick who was injured during his rookie off season and missed pretty much all of training camp. In that year, after coming back from his injury, he also made a great sideline catch that was a touchdown against the Chiefs in week 14, but for a bad call by the referee. If called correctly, that play could have reset the narrative on both his rookie season and the post season.

Then in his second year, there was no off season due to covid, and he was catching passes from Cam Newton who not only didn't have an off season in his first year with the team, but Cam also got covid.

Not trying to make excuses, but there is still potential that Harry can be a quality NFL receiver.
This is almost exactly how I feel about Harry. Sometimes players just have buzzards luck—injuries, other things out of their control—and never make it, fair or not. Harry may just be one of those guys.
 

BaseballJones

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Harry got a fine amount of targets in 2019 - he was targeted on 11.8% of his snaps, which is less than Edelman (14.8%) or White (19.2%, skewed because he plays disproportionately on passing downs) but similar to Sanu (12.3%), Meyers (9.7%), Gordon (11.1%) and more than the TEs. The problem is he was the least efficient receiver in the entire league on a per-target basis. Now he improved in that area in 2020, when he upgraded to being like the third-least-efficient receiver in the entire league. That's the issue here, not volume. He did a terrible job with the opportunities he had.
But WHY? Again, looking at 2020 numbers, here are some pass-catchers that are similar to him from the data (not necessarily in size or speed or whatever...just the data):

Cushion (5.9-6.1)
- Fitzgerald: 6.1
- JuJu: 6.1
- Hamler: 6.1
- Herndon: 6.1
- Hamilton: 6.1
- Ridley: 6.1
- Harry: 6.0
- Fulgham: 6.0
- Crowder: 6.0
- DJ Moore: 6.0
- Perriman: 5.9
- Gesicki: 5.9
- Boyd: 5.9
- Lamb: 5.9
- Ertz: 5.9
- Sample: 5.9

Separation (3.0-2.8)
- Hooper (3.0)
- Graham (3.0)
- Kelce (3.0)
- Shepard (3.0)
- Lamb (3.0)
- Ebron (3.0)
- Cooks (3.0)
- Byrd (3.0)
- Fuller (3.0)
- Ertz (3.0)
- Miller (3.0)
- Waller (3.0)
- Godwin (3.0)
- Diggs (3.0)
- Engram (2.9)
- Allen (2.9)
- Pascal (2.9)
- Ridley (2.9)
- Logan Thomas (2.9)
- R Anderson (2.9)
- Cobb (2.9)
- Harry (2.9)
- Goedert (2.9)
- Bourne (2.8)
- McLaurin (2.8)
- Gage (2.8)
- Evans (2.8)
- Hamilton (2.8)
- Higgins (2.8)
- Conley (2.8)
- Aiyuk (2.8)
- Ford (2.8)

TAY (8.3-7.9)
- Amendola (8.3)
- Knox (8.3)
- Henry (8.3)
- Irv Smith (8.2)
- Shepard (8.2)
- Harry (8.2)
- Watkins (8.1)
- D Johnson (8.1)
- Waller (7.9)
- Beasley (7.9)
- Tonyan (7.9)

So of these guys...

- Lamb is right there with Harry in Cushion and Separation, but his TAY is 9.4 rather than 8.2 for Harry.
- Waller is right there with Harry in TAY and Separation, but his Cushion is 5.8 rather than 6.0 (so it's really close).
- Shepard is right there with Harry in TAY and Separation, but his Cushion is 6.5 rather than 6.0.
- Ridley is right there with Harry in Cushion and Separation, but his TAY is 14.9 rather than 8.2 for Harry.

So I'd say that the three closest comps to Harry from this specific data set are: Lamb, Waller, and Shepard.

Now let's compare those four.

Harry: 6.0 cushion, 2.9 separation, 8.2 TAY, 57.9% catch rate, 4.1 tar/G, 5.4 yds/tar
Lamb: 5.9 cushion, 3.0 separation, 9.4 TAY, 66.7% catch rate, 6.9 tar/G, 8.4 yds/tar
Waller: 5.8 cushion, 3.0 separation, 7.9 TAY, 73.8% catch rate, 9.1 tar/G, 8.2 yds/tar
Shepard: 6.5 cushion, 3.0 separation, 8.2 TAY, 73.3% catch rate, 7.5 tar/G, 7.3 yds/tar

So these guys line up and the cushion the defender is giving them is almost identical - Shepard getting a little more than the other three. And when they run their routes, when the QB throws them the ball, they're getting virtually identical separation. And they're being thrown the ball roughly the same distance down the field on average - Lamb more than the others, but the others are just 3/10 of a yard of difference - or basically one foot - hardly any difference at all. But the differences are:

(1) Volume. Lamb, Waller, and Shepard all got thrown the ball a LOT more than Harry on a per-game basis. I don't know about on a per-snap basis. But we do know that the Pats under Newton hardly threw the ball at all last year compared to everyone else in the NFL. New England was 2nd to last in the NFL in pass attempts. Dallas had 639 (40/g), LV had 551 (34.4/g), NYG had 517 (32.3/g), and NE had just 440 (27.5/g).
(2) Catch rate. The other three had significantly higher catch rates than Harry, despite the same average separation. But again, it's not like Harry is a drop machine - he dropped ONE pass last year. One.
(3) Yards per target. When you put it all together - and this obviously has a lot to do with catch rate - the average yards per target is significantly different.

I know we can say he's just not good, but is that really sufficient for an explanation? He gets as open as these other guys. He doesn't drop passes. He certainly doesn't get thrown to NEARLY as much. But he is targeted, on average, about the same distance downfield as these guys. But their production is way way better.

Is it simply that these other guys make the difficult catches and Harry doesn't? Because he doesn't drop the easy ones. That's not his problem.

Watch this. Just three receptions against the Rams.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZH6pc5SxBc


But the first one, he leapt for the catch over the middle and took a shot as he caught it. Not an absurdly difficult catch, but not an easy one, especially taking the hit. The second one was indeed terrific - fighting off the defender, out-leaping him for the contested catch. The third one was completely routine. But in two of them, he made very nice plays.

Then this from 2019 against Cincy.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv5V_FHeg0k


- End around, nice little run.
- Flag on the play but a hell of a diving catch on a deep ball down the right sideline.
- Short pass for a first down, but a good job securing the ball and making sure he made the sticks.
- Another end around, with a nice move to get to the outside for a good gain.
- Great diving catch in the back of the end zone after (1) being open on the corner but didn't get the ball, and (2) adjusting his route when Brady got in trouble.

So again, it doesn't seem like he's not capable of making difficult catches.

So I don't really know what the deal is with him.
 

pappymojo

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I think Harry is exactly the type of player that an acquiring team wants as a throw in on a deal. Still on his rookie contract. Almost no pain if he doesn't work out. Plenty of physical ability and enough mitigating factors in his career so far that there is still potential that he can develop into something good.

Me, I hope he stays on the team and develops into something.

I'm certainly on board with bringing in Julio Jones as well. If the addition of Jones means there no space on the roster for Harry, I understand why he would be part of the package, but I haven't written him off yet and will continue to root for him as a player.
 

tims4wins

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I think Harry is exactly the type of player that an acquiring team wants as a throw in on a deal. Still on his rookie contract. Almost no pain if he doesn't work out. Plenty of physical ability and enough mitigating factors in his career so far that there is still potential that he can develop into something good.
Agreed. Would it shock anyone if a deal was struck, and in the Atlanta offense with Matt Ryan, he puts up a productive season?
 

pappymojo

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Julio Jones
Nelson Agholor
Kendrick Bourne
N'Keal Harry
Jakobi Myers
Jonnu Smith
Hunter Henry
Devin Asiasi

Might not be any space for Harry on this roster if we make the trade.
 

BaseballJones

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Agreed. Would it shock anyone if a deal was struck, and in the Atlanta offense with Matt Ryan, he puts up a productive season?
Not me. As you can tell, I'm trying to figure out why his production is so low, because he seems like he should be more productive. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if he went to Atlanta and did well there.
 

RedOctober3829

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Not me. As you can tell, I'm trying to figure out why his production is so low, because he seems like he should be more productive. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if he went to Atlanta and did well there.
His production is low because he's just not a good player. The traits that made him successful in college have not transitioned to the pros. He's been given a lot of chances, but I believe he's just not good enough to be a successful pro. I like the guy and he has a good work ethic, but I just don't see it for him.
 

BaseballJones

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His production is low because he's just not a good player. The traits that made him successful in college have not transitioned to the pros. He's been given a lot of chances, but I believe he's just not good enough to be a successful pro. I like the guy and he has a good work ethic, but I just don't see it for him.
I get that that's the easy answer, but WHY isn't he a good player? Again, he gets the same amount of separation as successful receivers. He doesn't drop passes. Compared to those guys I listed, he is targeted the same distance downfield on average with the same separation. Only one drop last year. So why isn't he more productive? Unquestionably, some of it is that he played in the worst passing offense in the league from a pass production standpoint. The Pats threw the ball the second fewest times in the NFL. So that's part of it for sure. But that's not all of it. Just saying he's not good isn't really an explanation. I want to know WHY he isn't good when these metrics suggest he should be as good as some of these other successful guys.
 

Bowser

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I had a little fun at N'Keal's expense, but I'm not dying to see him shipped out. With improved QB play, better usage, and refinements to his technique, I think he can be a functional player in this offense. He strikes me as a sensitive type who, in his transition to the league, lost all of his swag and is now struggling with a looming "bust" label. But he's a big, strong dude with decent hands who should be able to carve out an NFL career.
 

ehaz

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According to Breer, the Patriots interest in Julio is “tepid” but could change if the price drops.
 

Cellar-Door

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I get that that's the easy answer, but WHY isn't he a good player? Again, he gets the same amount of separation as successful receivers. He doesn't drop passes. Compared to those guys I listed, he is targeted the same distance downfield on average with the same separation. Only one drop last year. So why isn't he more productive? Unquestionably, some of it is that he played in the worst passing offense in the league from a pass production standpoint. The Pats threw the ball the second fewest times in the NFL. So that's part of it for sure. But that's not all of it. Just saying he's not good isn't really an explanation. I want to know WHY he isn't good when these metrics suggest he should be as good as some of these other successful guys.
One thing I would like to see, but can't seem to find is basically an adjust YPT number. His YPR is decent, his drop rate (yes a flawed stat) is low, and Cam who was throwing to him had one of the highest bad throw % (another flawed stat) so I would love to see how pulling out uncatchable throws changes things. Just from memory, I remember several of the ugliest 1 hop throws being targets to Harry (in particular that hideous one everyone remembers where Cam rolled from pressure had Harry wide open in the middle for a 1st and just turfed it).

Looking at other things that might indicate lack of success... his YAC are pretty bad, which may be a combination of lack of elusiveness and inability to break tackles... BUT, he's 14th in R/BT, which indicates he's breaking a lot of tackles when he catches it, but then not getting more yards... so a lack of elusiveness?
 

Average Game James

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This is also how I am interpreting this
That’s how I want to see it too, but the unemotional part of my brain wonders if the value of a guy like Julio is just lower in the type of offense Bill wants to run. They threw the ball 28 times a game last year... 4-5 targets each for Henry/Jonnu, 4-5 for the RBs, and all of a sudden there’s only 13-16 targets to spread across the WR. Obviously, those throws would be better going to Julio than any WR on the Pats roster, but what’s the point of having an alpha WR if you aren’t going to throw the ball his way 9-10 times a game?
 

Super Nomario

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I get that that's the easy answer, but WHY isn't he a good player? Again, he gets the same amount of separation as successful receivers. He doesn't drop passes. Compared to those guys I listed, he is targeted the same distance downfield on average with the same separation. Only one drop last year. So why isn't he more productive? Unquestionably, some of it is that he played in the worst passing offense in the league from a pass production standpoint. The Pats threw the ball the second fewest times in the NFL. So that's part of it for sure. But that's not all of it. Just saying he's not good isn't really an explanation. I want to know WHY he isn't good when these metrics suggest he should be as good as some of these other successful guys.
You're missing the forest for the trees. Yes, you can find receivers with a similar separation stat (for whatever that's worth, and to be honest I'm not sure we know how valid / useful a stat it is at this point), but it's still a below-average separation mark. Yes, you can find guys with similar average targeted depth, but it is one of the lowest marks in the league. His catch rate is terrible (and all his teammates, who also had to catch passes from Cam, had better ones). His YAC / catch is well below average (which is a big point against him relative to Waller and Lamb). He just doesn't do anything well, except maybe blocking.

And perhaps worst is that he hasn't shown much improvement. He got more and more reps down the stretch in 2019 and only played worse and worse with more snaps and targets. Last year, the team basically gave up on him trying to play outside and beat press and used him more like he was used in college, playing more in the slot and with more schemed touches. He was terrible on those, and wound up seeing his role in the offense diminish even as Edelman's injury opened opportunities. He had more than half of his 2020 production in the first four weeks; he averaged a paltry 14 yards per game, 52% catch rate, and yards per target under 5 in his final 10 games. I'm not seeing much cause for optimism here.
 

BaseballJones

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Just keep in mind that these are Cam’s passing yards the last six games:

84
69
119
209
34
242

That’s 757 over six games -126 per game.

That’s unfathomably bad. I’m putting that more on Cam than the receivers, though of course it’s all jumbled together.
 

BigSoxFan

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That’s how I want to see it too, but the unemotional part of my brain wonders if the value of a guy like Julio is just lower in the type of offense Bill wants to run. They threw the ball 28 times a game last year... 4-5 targets each for Henry/Jonnu, 4-5 for the RBs, and all of a sudden there’s only 13-16 targets to spread across the WR. Obviously, those throws would be better going to Julio than any WR on the Pats roster, but what’s the point of having an alpha WR if you aren’t going to throw the ball his way 9-10 times a game?
Counterpoint: the QB sucked and there was nobody to throw to. Perhaps play calling adjusts with actual talent to throw to? And Mac is around and likely gets the job sooner rather than later, which will impact things.

Stay strong on Team Julio. He’s coming.
 

Cellar-Door

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You're missing the forest for the trees. Yes, you can find receivers with a similar separation stat (for whatever that's worth, and to be honest I'm not sure we know how valid / useful a stat it is at this point), but it's still a below-average separation mark. Yes, you can find guys with similar average targeted depth, but it is one of the lowest marks in the league. His catch rate is terrible (and all his teammates, who also had to catch passes from Cam, had better ones). His YAC / catch is well below average (which is a big point against him relative to Waller and Lamb). He just doesn't do anything well, except maybe blocking.

And perhaps worst is that he hasn't shown much improvement. He got more and more reps down the stretch in 2019 and only played worse and worse with more snaps and targets. Last year, the team basically gave up on him trying to play outside and beat press and used him more like he was used in college, playing more in the slot and with more schemed touches. He was terrible on those, and wound up seeing his role in the offense diminish even as Edelman's injury opened opportunities. He had more than half of his 2020 production in the first four weeks; he averaged a paltry 14 yards per game, 52% catch rate, and yards per target under 5 in his final 10 games. I'm not seeing much cause for optimism here.
I mean... all of those things could be him,... or they could be the offense and QB. Catch rate doesn't tell you anything in a vaccuum, I mean AJ Green, OBJ, Edelman and Ertz all had a worse catch rate.... was it because those guys have bad hands? YAC might tell you something, but in a vacuum... not necessarily.

That's the thing. Harry last year played in a bad offense that got worse as time went on, it's very difficult to separate a WR from his QB and offense through just looking at stats. You'd need All 22s, and the playbook.

In the 6 games both played in here is Harry vs. Edelman
Edelman 21 catches on 39 targets for 315 yards... YPT: 8.08, Catch%: 53.8, YAC/R: 3.0 ADoT: 10.3
Harry: 19 catches on 32 targets for 172 yards... YPT: 5.38, Catch%: 59.4%, YAC/R: 2.6 ADoT: 6.19

Harry ran much shorter routes but caught more of his targets, YAC were around the same.
 

Harry Hooper

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That's the thing. Harry last year played in a bad offense that got worse as time went on, it's very difficult to separate a WR from his QB and offense through just looking at stats. You'd need All 22s, and the playbook.
Still, he lost his top 2 WR job to Byrd and Myers.
 

Cellar-Door

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Still, he lost his top 2 WR job to Byrd and Myers.
I'm not sure he really did. He got concussed and missed 3 weeks, but when he came back he was 2nd on the team in targets or better in most weeks. He Byrd and Meyers all rotated through. That's very similar to early season when Harry/Edelman/Byrd rotated through the 1-3 spots (except week 1). Basically Edelman went down and Meyers got that role in the offense, Harry got hurt and we tried gunner or just 2 WRs, and when Harry came back he went into his role again. The top 3 WRs were used similarly the whole year.
 

Super Nomario

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I mean... all of those things could be him,... or they could be the offense and QB.
Byrd and Meyers and Edelman all played in the same offense with the same QB last year and were a lot better.

In the 6 games both played in here is Harry vs. Edelman
Edelman 21 catches on 39 targets for 315 yards... YPT: 8.08, Catch%: 53.8, YAC/R: 3.0 ADoT: 10.3
Harry: 19 catches on 32 targets for 172 yards... YPT: 5.38, Catch%: 59.4%, YAC/R: 2.6 ADoT: 6.19

Harry ran much shorter routes but caught more of his targets, YAC were around the same.
Edelman's numbers are far better here ... he averaged almost 3 yards more per target. And this was Harry's best stretch!

This was also a stretch where the Patriots were getting Harry schemed touches, but his YAC was so poor that they essentially took those out of the playbook.

I'm not sure he really did. He got concussed and missed 3 weeks, but when he came back he was 2nd on the team in targets or better in most weeks. He Byrd and Meyers all rotated through. That's very similar to early season when Harry/Edelman/Byrd rotated through the 1-3 spots (except week 1). Basically Edelman went down and Meyers got that role in the offense, Harry got hurt and we tried gunner or just 2 WRs, and when Harry came back he went into his role again. The top 3 WRs were used similarly the whole year.
Once Meyers went into the lineup week 7, he played 643 / 674 snaps (95%) the rest of the way. Byrd played 89% of snaps (901/1017) basically consistently throughout the season. Harry did rotate (266 / 343 snaps, 78%) with Edelman early (234/343, 68%), but he was clearly the third guy once Meyers established himself (307/ 476 snaps post-injury, ~64%).

Targets tells a similar story; I have him as 2nd on the team in targets only twice after returning from injury (HOU and BUF). He had 25 targets in 8 games post injury, while Meyers had 50, Byrd had 36, and White had 32.
 

SMU_Sox

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@BaseballJones there is a chance that maybe in year 3 that maybe a guy like Mac might develop a throwing relationship with him. There’s a chance. Mac would throw it up to his guys and take chances more than Brady. I’m down on N’Keal. Guy has less than 500 receiving yards in 2 seasons and has been mitigated to mostly running shorter routes. A safety or corner playing off might give him 8-10 yards of separation if he’s running a 2-3 yard flat. I saw some ability from him at the end of last year in flashes to separate and stack enough to win vertically. But it was not something I’d see in each snap. The most shocking thing about him to me is his lack of broken tackles. That was supposed to be his calling card (RAC) and he’s shown next to nothing with the ball in his hands. They stopped scheming touches for him and that’s a bad sign.
 

SMU_Sox

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The way Lombardi said it it was more like if the Pats got Julio Jones Harry wouldn’t see the field. Get the feeling the team is pretty low on him. His son is the Pats WR coach so I think he might have an idea on this one.
 

BaseballJones

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@BaseballJones there is a chance that maybe in year 3 that maybe a guy like Mac might develop a throwing relationship with him. There’s a chance. Mac would throw it up to his guys and take chances more than Brady. I’m down on N’Keal. Guy has less than 500 receiving yards in 2 seasons and has been mitigated to mostly running shorter routes. A safety or corner playing off might give him 8-10 yards of separation if he’s running a 2-3 yard flat. I saw some ability from him at the end of last year in flashes to separate and stack enough to win vertically. But it was not something I’d see in each snap. The most shocking thing about him to me is his lack of broken tackles. That was supposed to be his calling card (RAC) and he’s shown next to nothing with the ball in his hands. They stopped scheming touches for him and that’s a bad sign.
Well I'd think that if they acquire Jones, Harry is gone.

But I posted some clips of him and he's definitely shown flashes of real ability - things to get excited about. But his production has been really low. I just think there's a lot more to it than "he's not good". He was a stud in college and by what I've read, appears to be putting in the work in the pros so something just isn't clicking. I think he has ability. The Pats don't always get it right, obviously, but they don't generally draft players in the first round with no NFL ability. Even if one is down on Malcom Brown, at least that guy has started most of his NFL career, for a couple of very good organizations. So he clearly has legit NFL ability. Harry can't be THIS bad, can he?
 

Shaky Walton

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The usually wrong Ben Volin predicted that Jones would not be acquired by the Pats and cited the two TE emphasis given Henry and Jones.

The last time BB thought in such a limited way was probably when he was in kindergarten.

In fairness, Volin also cited the amount of Jones' contract.

To me, JJ is a true difference maker and the kind of player you stretch for, even if getting a premier WR was not the plan at the outset. This just makes too much sense to me and I can't see BB not pulling out the stops to get it done, especially given the off season he has already had. He's already gone all in; may as well complete the deal.
 

tims4wins

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Hannable with the Worst Take of the Week Award. OMG, expectations might increase! Oh noes!

2. Julio Jones continues to be a major topic with the Patriots and we continue to believe it may not make sense at this time. Another thing to consider is if the Patriots add Jones, expectations go up and in a big way. No matter who is at quarterback — Jones or Newton — if Julio Jones is on the roster, the Patriots will be expected to be one of the top teams in the AFC. Added pressure doesn’t seem to be a good idea right now relating to the quarterbacks on the roster. The Patriots offense is in fine shape as it is and adding the No. 1 receiver doesn’t make complete sense at this point in time.
https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/patriots/sunday-7-why-mac-jones-hype-should-be-toned-down
 

RG33

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The usually wrong Ben Volin predicted that Jones would not be acquired by the Pats and cited the two TE emphasis given Henry and Jones.

The last time BB thought in such a limited way was probably when he was in kindergarten.

In fairness, Volin also cited the amount of Jones' contract.

To me, JJ is a true difference maker and the kind of player you stretch for, even if getting a premier WR was not the plan at the outset. This just makes too much sense to me and I can't see BB not pulling out the stops to get it done, especially given the off season he has already had. He's already gone all in; may as well complete the deal.
Yeah, Volin with his usual mail-it-in-made-up-on-the-fly column today. There is a big difference in saying “I don’t think it will happen”, and being the beat writer for the team and basically making up shit as to why it won’t happen. His full reasoning was:

1.) Kraft has expressed “trepidation” about spending money after the $175m binge in free agency. Obviously, this is contradictory and makes non sense.
2.) The Patriots “only” have $14.78m in salary cap space which would make it difficult. He then names 10 other teams that have significantly less than that as options.
3.) The 2-TE offense that you mention. Just dumb — again, they doled out $35m+ For WRs this offseason, apparently he likes them in an offense.
4.) We don’t have a QB who could throw the ball to JJ and the offense will be quick hits to WRs. He then mentions that Cam will be using Agholor as his deep threat to stretch the field.

Just bad, lazy writing offering no real insight. He stinks.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Oof. He seems like an earnest guy with what has to be a drag of a job, he’s got to litter WEEI’s website with endless content to generate clicks. It’s like a dime store version of what PFT does, news aggregation with dispensable and, at times, downright foolish commentary.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
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Reiss also says today that financial considerations will play a role in any Julio trade

2. Julio follow-up: Finances will likely drive how aggressive the Patriots are in pursuit of receiver Julio Jones in a trade, more so than the compensation it would take to acquire him (the Atlanta Falcons are in a low-leverage spot). My sense is the Patriots would love to have Jones -- who wouldn't? -- but the finances are significant. Bringing Jones aboard on his current contract would mean other dominoes have to fall to create salary-cap space to get through this season, and there's also projecting ahead to 2022 when the club is already within range of a $208.2 million cap ceiling. I would be surprised if the Patriots over-extend themselves in any possible trade talks; it would have to be a sweet deal to take on the financial strain.

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4823083/first-impression-of-mac-jones-rare-to-see-patriots-rookie-keep-up-mentally
 

RedOctober3829

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Jul 19, 2005
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deep inside Guido territory
Reiss also says today that financial considerations will play a role in any Julio trade

2. Julio follow-up: Finances will likely drive how aggressive the Patriots are in pursuit of receiver Julio Jones in a trade, more so than the compensation it would take to acquire him (the Atlanta Falcons are in a low-leverage spot). My sense is the Patriots would love to have Jones -- who wouldn't? -- but the finances are significant. Bringing Jones aboard on his current contract would mean other dominoes have to fall to create salary-cap space to get through this season, and there's also projecting ahead to 2022 when the club is already within range of a $208.2 million cap ceiling. I would be surprised if the Patriots over-extend themselves in any possible trade talks; it would have to be a sweet deal to take on the financial strain.

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4823083/first-impression-of-mac-jones-rare-to-see-patriots-rookie-keep-up-mentally
i.e. Jones would have to agree to a restructure or an extension before doing the deal.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
53,850
Reiss also says today that financial considerations will play a role in any Julio trade

2. Julio follow-up: Finances will likely drive how aggressive the Patriots are in pursuit of receiver Julio Jones in a trade, more so than the compensation it would take to acquire him (the Atlanta Falcons are in a low-leverage spot). My sense is the Patriots would love to have Jones -- who wouldn't? -- but the finances are significant. Bringing Jones aboard on his current contract would mean other dominoes have to fall to create salary-cap space to get through this season, and there's also projecting ahead to 2022 when the club is already within range of a $208.2 million cap ceiling. I would be surprised if the Patriots over-extend themselves in any possible trade talks; it would have to be a sweet deal to take on the financial strain.

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4823083/first-impression-of-mac-jones-rare-to-see-patriots-rookie-keep-up-mentally
How is this materially different from any other team acquiring him?

(I'm asking not snarking)
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
Dianna Russini of ESPN saying Seattle has had discussions with Atlanta. Seems weird we hear that Seahawks want to run more, but then perhaps want to go get JJ.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
53,850
Just got push notification that Peter King is saying Atlanta will accept a 2nd rounder.
 

Saints Rest

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In the NFL, is there any way for the team trading a player away (eg ATL) to pay part of the salary in out years or to include cash in the deal in any way other than a pre-trade contract restructuring?
Or is the only way to mitigate the costs for the receiving team (eg NE) to trade back a bad contract?
Finally, are there any rules regarding how the player and the new team could restructure a new deal post-trade (eg Randy Moss in 07 as opposed to the way the MLBPA rejected ARods attempt to take a pay cut in coming to the Sox)?