Week 10 - Infects With Zaha

candylandriots

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I provided some calculations upthread. The camera’s framerate creates uncertainty. Players and the ball can move on the order of more than a foot between stills. There does not seem to be a standard for what still is selected for the offside decision. Using pixels to determine offside is completely arbitrary. The uncertainty must be incorporated or it’s a total coin flip of a decision with no basis in fact.
Yes, and I understand those. The player could theoretically be one foot either ahead or behind the line on a marginal call. I guess I’m asking more why the pixels are inferior to the naked eye. There has to be some limit, why not use the best possible technology to determine where that limit should be?

Those close cases have to be decided one way or another. Is your view that they should be called goals (which I assume would get you thrown out of the GK union!), or based what what was first called by the official with the naked eye?
 

SocrManiac

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I hope some team with a lot of money is watching this Stones performance. He’s phenomenal again come buy him!
It was the same for Minamino in the FA Cup. He didn’t look like complete shit against awful competition.

At least if they let Burnley wear their home kits instead of these black strips you could have used blurry photography and said it was a great performance against the Gunners.
 

candylandriots

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The purpose of the offside rule is to prevent goal hanging. It gives the manager and defenders some agency in being able to establish where the match is played.

When we try to determine offside at the level of a toe beyond an armpit we have long since ceased to be accomplishing the goal. There is no skill involved by either the attacker or defender at margins which are that small. No attacker can credibly claim they were purposefully inch perfect and likewise no defender can credibly claim they stepped up at just the right time. Quite frankly, the margin of error should probably be something like 3 feet and the naked eye would probably get that right 95% of the time Anthony Taylor isn’t involved
That makes a bit more sense to me. But if you give a 3 foot margin of error, won’t you have the same question there too? Or are you saying go with the original call if it’s close?
 

SocrManiac

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Yes, and I understand those. The player could theoretically be one foot either ahead or behind the line on a marginal call. I guess I’m asking more why the pixels are inferior to the naked eye. There has to be some limit, why not use the best possible technology to determine where that limit should be?

Those close cases have to be decided one way or another. Is your view that they should be called goals (which I assume would get you thrown out of the GK union!), or based what what was first called by the official with the naked eye?
The pixels do not have a bearing on the reality of the play. They’re a self-caricature, trying to lend an air of precision to something that is inherently imprecise, then allowing the league to hide behind the results. You cannot use a still frame with an unknown on the timing of pass and a foot of potential player movement between frames and then use a pixel to determine offside. It’s just asinine.

If they looked at the overhead replay in real time without lines or pauses and possibly with a viewing limit to determine the offside, it would add legitimacy. If they added error bars to the still shots that allowed for the flaws in the technology, it would add legitimacy. As it is, it’s complete and utter fabricated nonsense without a pretense of fact.
 

teddykgb

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That makes a bit more sense to me. But if you give a 3 foot margin of error, won’t you have the same question there too? Or are you saying go with the original call if it’s close?
I’ve always been a fan of the daylight between attacker and defender idea. There would still be fractional decisions but if they’re harsh and fractional against the attacker in that situation then at least they were well and clearly gaining an advantage. The current rule is constantly ruling against players who aren’t gaining advantage by their position
 

Kliq

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Another match week, another chance for Liverpool fans to pretend to be victims.
 

SocrManiac

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Another match week, another chance for Liverpool fans to pretend to be victims.
Is it just a little possible that Liverpool have had more than their share of awful VAR decisions this year? One of which lead to the loss of their best player?
 

DJnVa

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Is it just a little possible that Liverpool have had more than their share of awful VAR decisions this year? One of which lead to the loss of their best player?
Sure.

I think the point fans of other teams are making is that you guys didn't seem all that sympathetic when other teams got burned last season, etc.
 

candylandriots

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The pixels do not have a bearing on the reality of the play. They’re a self-caricature, trying to lend an air of precision to something that is inherently imprecise, then allowing the league to hide behind the results. You cannot use a still frame with an unknown on the timing of pass and a foot of potential player movement between frames and then use a pixel to determine offside. It’s just asinine.

If they looked at the overhead replay in real time without lines or pauses and possibly with a viewing limit to determine the offside, it would add legitimacy. If they added error bars to the still shots that allowed for the flaws in the technology, it would add legitimacy. As it is, it’s complete and utter fabricated nonsense without a pretense of fact.
I won’t continue to beat this horse after this, but do the officials have a better handle on exactly where and when both a ball might have been kicked from many yards away and where the offensive player is at that exact moment? It’s an extraordinarily hard thing to do with the naked eye. So even if imperfect, it seems like a better solution to me. Which is not to say that they could not improve the technology with the sort of suggestions you’re making.

As frustrating as these calls are to fans (Michy Batsuhayi just had a streak of 3 games in a row with goals being waved off), I’m just having a hard time finding it worse than some random official’s call on a split-second basis, even with its limitations. I remember watching lots of offside calls before VAR that were plenty ugly. It’s not clear to me that going back would produce a fairer game.

You can have the last word on this if you like.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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That makes a bit more sense to me. But if you give a 3 foot margin of error, won’t you have the same question there too? Or are you saying go with the original call if it’s close?
How about not use VAR at all for offside calls? All it does is wreck the immediacy of the event - usually a goal - for the sake of fuzzily measured pixels that are irrelevant to the intent of the rule in the first place.

And the “penalty” ? What are the guys in the VAR room doing? Running every play in the box in super slow motion in the hope they can discover a tiny, minuscule highly debatable infraction that was not called on the field? In what alternate universe was that a Clear and Obvious error? It’s fucking ludicrous.
 

teddykgb

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It’s irrelevant to the result and relevant to the conversation but if you stopped watching see how City’s sixth was ruled out for a toe offside. It’s just not improving the game
 

Zomp

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What is Robbie Earle on about? Klopp, like Ole, like Pep, is 100% right about the schedule. No Champions League club should be in the 12:30 slot.
 

SocrManiac

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It’s irrelevant to the result and relevant to the conversation but if you stopped watching see how City’s sixth was ruled out for a toe offside. It’s just not improving the game
I don’t think it’s irrelevant. In fact, it would follow that attacking teams are going to be hurt by this more against the minnows than most other scenarios as they try to break down defenses with ten behind the ball.

I don’t want to go through the math again (and the original isn’t mine, anyway) but in the most conservative scenario (players moving slowly/starting runs at angles against a stationary defender) there is an absolutely minimum of 6” of uncertainty in a still frame. Can we agree to start there? Thicken the pixel line to 6”?
 

teddykgb

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What is Robbie Earle on about? Klopp, like Ole, like Pep, is 100% right about the schedule. No Champions League club should be in the 12:30 slot.
Agree. It was a stupid take. Klopp is right that the broadcasting interests are making a bad situation worse. The interviewer was correct that maybe most of his beef is with other PL clubs but the broadcasters are not innocent here.
I don’t think it’s irrelevant. In fact, it would follow that attacking teams are going to be hurt by this more against the minnows than most other scenarios as they try to break down defenses with ten behind the ball.

I don’t want to go through the math again (and the original isn’t mine, anyway) but in the most conservative scenario (players moving slowly/starting runs at angles against a stationary defender) there is an absolutely minimum of 6” of uncertainty in a still frame. Can we agree to start there? Thicken the pixel line to 6”?
Need to be careful here though. Many teams are already so defensive. If you make offside favor the attacking teams more the natural next step may be deeper and more parked buses
Everton-Leeds is going to be a 7-5 game.
I’ve been eyeing this one all day
 

OCST

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No clue how EVE-LEE is 0-0.Wide open, ragged, mistakes, great passes and shots, 20 shots total.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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But Klopp went after the BT Sports guy because BT selected Liverpool. That's the PL's fault, not BT Sport's. Klopp blamed BT Sport for an injury.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jurgen-klopp-congratulates-des-kelly-23084078
It was BT’s choice to determine the TV schedule .. granted to them by the Premier League in a pre-COVID world. They could have moved the game to Sunday .. or the Leeds/Everton slot .. It seems rather clear BT couldn’t care less about player health .. mind you, they never have .. nor for that matter the Premier League.
 

candylandriots

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Just finished watching Union Berlin and Eintracht Frankfurt. I won’t spoil it in case anyone wants to see it, but it was definitely the most exciting game I have watched this month.

(maybe not saying much haha)
 

OCST

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37 attempts and one goal.

xG just exploded to death.
Did you see it, SM? Both keepers were outstanding, MOTM for their sides.

As predicted, Everton's lack of weaponry beyond the first XI is a problem. What wasn't predicted is Carlo failing to instill good discipline in defense, and Carlo making headscratching personnel decisions. Replacing Digne and Coleman is always going to be a tall order, but the Toffees have natural LB and RB in Niels Nkonkou and Jonjoe Kenny. In limited duty Kenny has been meh but Nknonkou has impressed. Carlo elected to go instead with a back three - Godfrey, Keane, and Holgate returning from injury- with James, Doucoure, and Allan centrally, and Davies and Iwobi as wing-backs. That's goofy, but Iwobi was arguably MOTM against Fulham last week in the same setup as right wing back. So now he's started on the left and Davies on the right. Richy and DCL up top. The attack was decent, as shown by the two waved-off goals (both the right call) but the defending was poor. Carlo cycled unsuccessfully through sub-par CMs in an attempt to create something late and failed. Reminiscent of Marco Silva unfortunately.

Leeds were the better side and a score reflective of the contest would have been maybe 4-3 Leeds.

Richarlison is off. The energy is there but the end product is not. No mustard on his shots, passes not finding their mark.

If you have DCL in your FPL side, sell. Digne is out for 2-3 months with an ankle ligament injury. Without service DCL dies on the vine.
 

DJnVa

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It was BT’s choice to determine the TV schedule .. granted to them by the Premier League in a pre-COVID world. They could have moved the game to Sunday .. or the Leeds/Everton slot .. It seems rather clear BT couldn’t care less about player health .
Come on, that's not BT's place. Just like it's not ESPN fault it someone gets hurt on Sunday after playing in MNF and had a short week. That is the purview of the league and it's player and whatever collective bargaining decisions they've made.
 

swiftaw

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There is no collective bargaining (and least to my knowledge). The teams agreed to the TV rights deal but after that the broadcasters pick the games.
 

Catcher Block

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Ward-Prowse makes it 2-0 with an impossibly well-taken free kick.

....and then should have been 3-0, but Southampton make a mess of a rebound with de Gea scrambling.
 

Zomp

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United down 2-0. Pretty much both against the run of play. One corner, one free kick. United had a golden opportunity on a sloppy back pass but failed to convert.
 

OCST

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Cruel for the Saints but no less than they deserved for that second half performance.
 

Zomp

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So far Chelsea vs Spurs has been a chess match. Mendy had a nice save early and now Chelsea are playing their way back into the game.
 

Kliq

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He's not a perfect player, but Ndombele has so much flair you just kind of have to let him do how own thing and live with some of the mistakes.
 

teddykgb

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If we are complaining about crests and kits this Spurs kit looks like sone weird NCAA shirt. Sometimes kits go wrong but are ambitious but this is just a bland nothingness
 

teddykgb

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Maybe talking to myself at this point because this match has put everyone to sleep but while effective this Spurs team is absolutely unwatchable. Both wingers are in their own box Kane is dropping 10 yards in front and falling over whenever anyone comes near him. 5 across the back with 4 screening....I’d rather watch the Liverpool cult celebrate 7 more titles than watch this garbage
 

Kliq

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Maybe talking to myself at this point because this match has put everyone to sleep but while effective this Spurs team is absolutely unwatchable. Both wingers are in their own box Kane is dropping 10 yards in front and falling over whenever anyone comes near him. 5 across the back with 4 screening....I’d rather watch the Liverpool cult celebrate 7 more titles than watch this garbage
Sounds like someone who saw Tottenham thoroughly out play their team last week by sitting back and hitting them for two lovely goals on the counter. Today's game was boring, but I'm enjoying the rapid counterattack Spurs have produced. Tottenham have scored 21 goals this season, just one behind Liverpool and Chelsea for the most in the league.
 

pedro1918

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Raul Jimenez and David Luiz just cracked heads in a major collision in front of goal. David Luiz is up, but bleeding. As far as I can see, Jimenez hasn’t moved.

Jimenez taken off on a stretcher.
 

fletcherpost

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Jimenez has taken a bad one there. Clash of heads with Luiz. Looks like he might be unconscious. It's been a good few minutes now since the head clash.