Week 4 Game Thread

scott bankheadcase

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Honest disagreement is fine, it’s why we’re here! I just don’t think they’d consider it a “risk” because Tua was cleared to play last week. Every NFL player is nursing some injury at all times. It’s pretty tough to protect everyone from everything. And in the league of the doc says he can play, and the player wants to go, then that’s that.
You agree that someone fucked up here though right? I get that it should be the team dr. And independent neurologist. I even said that barring any evidence to the contrary, coach McD SHOULD be throwing them under the bus.

But someone fucked up here. Tua shouldn’t have been on the field tonight.
 

8slim

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That's dumb then. It should be "when in doubt sit him out" and anyone from the coach to the trainers to the doctors should be able to pull out a player for health reasons.
Sigh. I’m saying the docs and team didn’t think there was a doubt. If something shady went down last week then they all should be punished severely for it.
 

riboflav

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The hypo whataboutism in this thread is not worthy of SoSH. You can have your reasons on why the HC should have allowed Tua to play but let's not use hypo whataboutism.
 

8slim

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You agree that someone fucked up here though right? I get that it should be the team dr. And independent neurologist. I even said that barring any evidence to the contrary, coach McD SHOULD be throwing them under the bus.

But someone fucked up here. Tua shouldn’t have been on the field tonight.
I have absolutely no idea. Im not a doctor, and I have zero ability to diagnose a concussion, let alone from watching short video clips online.
 

riboflav

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Can’t figure out how to link it on my phone but according to the 2020 published protocol-the most recent one I can find-the team doctor makes the final go/no go call in consultation with the independent physician. Has it changed in the past two years?

the head coach or doctor or even the gm or owner could also so no Fucking way he plays again today.
This is the standard in varsity sports and I was at a national college coaches conference last fall where I swear a speaker mentioned this is the standard in most pro leagues now. The NFL wasn't specifically mentioned.
 

swiftaw

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In Rugby, all head injuries are evaluated by an independent doctor and if there is any any one of a specific list of symptoms there is a mandatory 11 day rest period for the player before they are re-evaluated.
 

CaptainLaddie

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If you take a concussion class you would have an idea.
I watched my wife have a seizure (complete with the fingers thing) and then throw herself on the (thankfully soft wood) floor of a Lululemon back in 2017. It was horrifying and she wasn't normal for like a month. We visited multiple neurologists and specialists. She's never had one since then, thankfully (and I was actually the one who figured out why she had the seizure in the first place).

The point here is that she was concussed and wasn't the same person for weeks. I cannot imagine that Tua was even close to 100% after he was *clearly* concussed on Sunday. There's no way he should have been cleared to enter last week's game and there's no way he should have played today. If he's got severe CTE when he's 31, what the fuck was the point of his life?
 

Ale Xander

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In Rugby, all head injuries are evaluated by an independent doctor and if there is any any one of a specific list of symptoms there is a mandatory 11 day rest period for the player before they are re-evaluated.
Rugby doesn’t have helmets though
 

hunter05

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He shouldn’t have been allowed back in last week and he shouldnt have played tonight. He was clearly concussed. If you’ve watched enough sports, that wobbling he was doing after standing up was evidence enough. This should be a major story with an investigation. It’s fucking awful and everyone involved should be excoriated.
 

scott bankheadcase

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I’m willing the give the Dolphins org and coaching staff the benefit of the doubt. But the idea that Tua wasn’t concussed last week and should have been cleared for a Thursday night game defies logic and reality for me.

The medical professionals are awful or compromised. I don’t think there’s another explanation.
 

Cellar-Door

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McDaniel draws up great plays, but his conservatism on FG/go for it is going to cost his team this game.
 

Shelterdog

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This is the standard in varsity sports and I was at a national college coaches conference last fall where I swear a speaker mentioned this is the standard in most pro leagues now. The NFL wasn't specifically mentioned.
To be very cynical if Mac Jones had a falling down incident like Tua I think BB would bench him-and if Josh Bledsoe had a similar incident they would not
 

RSN Diaspora

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To clarify one point under the NFLs concussion protocol the team doctor absolutely is involved and makes the call that a player can play on consultation with the independent neurologist. Here’s a recent WP story in the topic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/09/25/nfl-review-if-concussion-protocols-were-followed-with-tua-tagovailoa/
The WaPo article makes clear that “[a] player can return to a game if cleared by the team physician and an unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant following several tests.”

The “and” in that sentence is critical. It’s not just consultation: the independent neuro has to clear the player independently of the team doctor.
 

Fishercat

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Somewhat related, the Miami team docs are three Orthopedic docs, a family medicine physician, and a heart doctor. This in itself is not a hugely odd thing (orthopedic docs are really important and all over med staffs) but it’s kind of odd with the emphasis on this that a series of ortho docs are making this call.
 

Shelterdog

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The WaPo article makes clear that “[a] player can return to a game if cleared by the team physician and an unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant following several tests.”

The “and” in that sentence is critical. It’s not just consultation: the independent neuro has to clear the player independently of the team doctor.
Agreed and clearly this independent doctor sucked. Just pointing out that the team doctor also has a role which is being disputed in this thread
 

Ale Xander

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The WaPo article makes clear that “[a] player can return to a game if cleared by the team physician and an unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant following several tests.”

The “and” in that sentence is critical. It’s not just consultation: the independent neuro has to clear the player independently of the team doctor.
And works the other way too
The team doctor has to clear the player independently of the independent neurologist.
 

luckiestman

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Tua got whipped to the fucking deck and his head snapped back. That could have concussed anyone even if they were not concussed the prior week. For his health, I hope this is not 2 concussions in a week and last week was neck and back.
 

Shelterdog

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I’m sure Tua might have told the doctors that he fell last week because his back froze but does anyone believe that’s what actually happened?
 

Cellar-Door

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I’m sure Tua might have told the doctors that he fell last week because his back froze but does anyone believe that’s what actually happened?
As people pointed out last week when it happened and today pre-game, just watching the video it's clear that isn't what happened. He staggers, grabs his head not his back or his leg, then shakes his head hard in the classic "got his bell rung" move. Nobody watched that and honestly thought... oh yeah, back spasms.
 

Fishercat

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FWIW, I am not sure if that WaPo article is exactly right. I’m trying to go through the NFLs hard guidelines on it and I could be hard misreading it but it seems like team doctor makes a final call even with the unaffiliated neurologist being able to ask questions and support. I don’t think it’s clear the independent doc can override unless the player is deemed to be concussed

https://static.www.nfl.com/image/upload/v1597677293/league/dhfywrwelyfsivvia3ie.pdf

Only medical personnel deemed essential to the care of the athlete
306 may be present for the tent and/or locker room evaluation. This includes the team
307 physician best qualified to evaluate concussion, the Club athletic trainer, and the
308 sideline UNC. The sideline UNC may present his/her own questions or conduct
309 additional testing.
310
311 If, upon completing the Sideline Survey, the Club physician concludes that the
312 player did not sustain a concussion, then the player may return to play
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I’m willing the give the Dolphins org and coaching staff the benefit of the doubt. But the idea that Tua wasn’t concussed last week and should have been cleared for a Thursday night game defies logic and reality for me.

The medical professionals are awful or compromised. I don’t think there’s another explanation.
But they're 3-0! He needs to risk his career for a Thursday night football game!
 

riboflav

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As people pointed out last week when it happened and today pre-game, just watching the video it's clear that isn't what happened. He staggers, grabs his head not his back or his leg, then shakes his head hard in the classic "got his bell rung" move. Nobody watched that and honestly thought... oh yeah, back spasms.
You need to read this thread. We have had posters claiming you cannot recognize the symptoms of a concussion from watching this hit and the aftermath on tv even though I'm sure many of us have been through concussion education courses.
 

8slim

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You need to read this thread. We have had posters claiming you cannot recognize the symptoms of a concussion from watching this hit and the aftermath on tv even though I'm sure many of us have been through concussion education courses.
My wife was a cheerleading coach, a sport that has the second highest concussion rate in high school athletics. She took concussion courses every year to maintain her coaching certification. She would do her very best to recognize any sign of concussion in her athletes. And it was a doctor who had to ultimately make that diagnosis, not her. Many times one of her athletes turned out not to have a concussion.

Maybe Tua did. He looked awful when he stumbled to the turf last week.

The hit he took tonight was alone violent enough to give him a serious concussion. It doesn’t necessarily mean he was only susceptible because he had one last week as well.