"We're going to Disney World!" NBA to resume season July 31 at WDW
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He's extremely dominant and a top 3 player in the league. He is also less skilled than anybody on this list when they won their MVPs.
Kareem
Julius Erving
Moses Malone
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Karl Malone
Shaquille O’Neal
Allen Iverson
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Stephen Curry
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Giannis "the least skilled MVP of the modern era" is a strange place to plant a flag
I'd guess you could say the least skilled outside shooter, but then you have Shaq, 52% FT shooter
GA is also probably one of the most skilled defensive players on that list, then again defense only makes up 10% of the game
I'd guess you could say the least skilled outside shooter, but then you have Shaq, 52% FT shooter
GA is also probably one of the most skilled defensive players on that list, then again defense only makes up 10% of the game
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I assume TSC is using "skilled" in the same way a talent evaluator looking at a prospect would use the phrase "skill level" or "ball skills." Draftniks typically talk about players in terms of athleticism, skill level and various mental/"feel" attributes (defensive awareness, court vision, decision making).Giannis "the least skilled MVP of the modern era" is a strange place to plant a flag
I'd guess you could say the least skilled outside shooter, but then you have Shaq, 52% FT shooter
GA is also probably one of the most skilled defensive players on that list, then again defense only makes up 10% of the game
Defense is not usually talked about as part of skill level, it is a combination of athleticism/mental. Skill level is used to refer to things that are actual skills (i.e. an ability you can improve upon through practice and repetition) namely shooting and dribbling
Assuming that's the rubric I don't think the statement about Giannis is remotely controversial. He and Shaq would be the two with the lowest skill level by a good margin.
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Depends on your definition of "skilled," but you have to put him ahead of Shaq, right? I don't recall Shaq handling and passing like a guard, euro-stepping around, hitting threes, defending all five positions, etc.
Barkley, Rose, and Westbrook might also be debatable, imo (not saying they're not all highly skilled, just not obviously more so than Giannis). The others not so much. But I'm kinda just winging it without any defined criteria.
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Are you implying that defense is not something you can improve on through improving proper fundamentals through practice and repetition, such as footwork, timing, defensive positioning, etc.? There is a reason most rookies are terrible at defense when they get to the NBA, yet they somehow almost always improve.
This is in general a dumb argument, but Reggie is going to have a heart attack when he sees this thread.
In terms of shooting, yes. I won't say their ball-handling is better, because the rules are SO different. The eurostep would have been a travel. The ball-handling they let guys do now would have been violations. The ridiculous Harden/Tatum take-three-or-four-steps-but-call-it-a-zero-step move before shooting would never ever ever have been allowed.
Yes today's players are unreal. But there's reasons why the game of basketball had things like carrying and traveling rules - when you let players do that sort of thing it is almost impossible to guard them. And today's game lets them do those sorts of things, which makes them look more skilled than they are.
I mean, this was >20 years ago, and the eurostep has been around since Marciulionis.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C977RCbuqFk
Not at all. This is largely nomenclature/semantics but there is a kernel of useful distinction, so it is worth continuing the discussion.
Defense can absolutely improve with practice. In fact, I think it is the area I think you can expect the quickest jump provided the player has the right attitude. But what you are improving is (mostly) not a physical skill, it is (mostly) a mental one. Most of these guys have the requisite physical coordination to get into a stance and move their feet. It's about learning where they are supposed to be and then developing the mental ability to recognize what they are seeing in real time. Physical improvements in defense are mostly tied to improvements in athleticism/conditioning/body composition.
In contrast, shooting and ball handling are not about knowing what to do/recognizing what is happening on the court. They are pure physical skills. You improve them by teaching your body literally how to complete the physical movement required.
Stated differently, when a scout is talking about "skill level" is he is usually talking about basketball attributes (such as shooting and ball handling) that can be improved by solo drills/practice.
538 really likes us now.
And they really have soured on the Lakers.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-predictions/?ex_cid=rrpromo
And they really have soured on the Lakers.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-predictions/?ex_cid=rrpromo
'
Would the fact that Giannis has improved statistically every single year count as skill?
Do you think Giannis is the most dominant player in the league just because of his strength and athleticism? Lots of guys on this list were MVPs in part because of their physical gifts, even beyond the obvious (Jordan's athleticism, Shaq's strength, Iverson's quickness, Durant's length, Westbrook's explosiveness, Lebron's everything). Giannis is a poor shooter, but he's still better than nearly half that list. He's averaged about 5.5 APG over the last few years, better than anyone on that list for guys his size. On defense, there are maybe 4-5 guys on that list who are in his league as a defender, and in terms of versatility it's basically just Garnett. That doesn't happen without being incredibly skilled.
At the end, I'm just not sure what you are and are not considering a skill. He has tremendous footwork, a soft touch around the basket, uses his size to his advantage on both ends (usually) without fouling, he can hit the open man when doubled, knows when to finish strong at the rim, and just finished anchoring one of the top defenses in the league. His one real weakness is his FT%, and for his size it's just fine. He's got a career rate of about 72%, which is obviously miles ahead of Shaq and Wilt. It's also better than Duncan and Hakeem, and only 1-2 points behind Lebron, Robinson, Barkley, Malone (meaning there's a good chance he finishes at or above all of them with only a slight improvement).
IIRC he usually gets dinged in these types of metrics for not generating many assists/steals/blocks.
My memory of the NBA stretches back to the early 1980s. Throughout that time, the league has consistently ignored all but the most egregious traveling and carrying violations.
The rule changes 10 years ago have opened up step-back 3s and 3-step fast-break finishes, both of which would have been called travels in the past. More subtly, the foot-shuffle that the new rules allow on catch-and-shoot has probably boosted shooting percentages a bit. But those changes are the sort of nuanced changes that happen in every sport over a span of decades. The main reason today’s players are more skilled is because they have worked harder on their game from a younger age. Giannis has probably spent literally 100x as many hours working on his jump shot and handles as your average 6-10 guy who came into the league 30 years before him.
I agree. But I don't want to hear that the way the refs let these guys play isn't a factor. Yeah Giannis is a freak. They also let him take as many steps as he needs, going right through guys, to get wherever he wants to on the floor - with or without dribbling. They let Harden take those ridiculous 4-step stepbacks and we all marvel.
I think on the whole, you take the mid-level guys of the NBA right now and they're WAY better than the mid-level guys of the NBA 20-30 years ago. I think that's where you see the biggest improvement. But the stars? You let the stars of 20 years ago get away with what these guys can today and you'd see very little difference.
I've been a Cs fan since 1958, and saw my first game in person in '59 or 60. I think the non-calls on traveling and palming started in the late 80s and has gotten progressively worse.
Everyone wanted to be like Mike and the NBA checked the ratings and said, "ok".
Everyone wanted to be like Mike and the NBA checked the ratings and said, "ok".
None of the advanced metrics are high on Brown’s value. I think they are largely right too. While Brown flashes high level skills and athleticism, he is still a limited player on both sides of the ball. He doesn’t create offense for himself or others, although he is a good scorer. A team that ran their offense through Brown would be in trouble and Stevens gets that and rotates him in a way that never asks him to take on that role. Similarly, on defense, he is a very good individual defender, but we tend to overrate that aspect of defense when we watch games. He doesn’t have great hands and he isn’t a great team defender. He has improved to not bad on both fronts, and will likely keep improving, but his reputation exceeds his contribution level.
Jaylen is an essential piece for Boston. He is a very solid player that is versatile and frees up Tatum, Kemba, and Smart to focus on their strengths. But I think many overrate his ability because the two things he is best at are the most noticed aspects of the game. He’s a very good scorer and a very good man defender who is below average or average at a bunch of less noticed but still very important skills.
If you consider post play it started in the 70s. And, to be brutally frank, it started for everyone post-merger. The ABA liked the high flying artistry and discouraged the strict enforcement of traveling and palming, and after the merger the NBA just adopted the more lax attitude. Dr. J regularly took three steps before soaring off to dunk.
Moses Malone and Kevin McHale both had some really advanced shuffle moves that were totally illegal under the rules, but which the refs always let go (and as a Boston/Houston fan I was totally fine with that). The Dream likewise had some completely illegal moves that the refs just let go.
Anything they didn't call on McHale, they made up for with Parrish. It seemed he got called for shuffling his feet about half the time he had the ball in the low-post. I really thought (or its the way I'm recalling it) the non-calls got out of control and was basically OKed by the league in the late 80s
Parrish blazed the trail and now Theis is cursed with the same affliction. The league clearly has it out for Celtics’ big men.
"Morris straddles the line between dirty and tough. Sometimes, he falls on the wrong side. "
This is a bullshit take, he is a dirty player that occasionally hides behind the guise of poorly-defined "toughness". Nothing screams tough guy like sneaking up behind someone and trying to step on their injured ankle. Or smacking somebody from behind because your ass got roasted on a drive to the basket.
This is 100% correct Jake. I'm surprised you haven't received pushback from the Jaylen fanboys.
although under intangibles, attitude, teammate, and emotion... he is an A+++.
Agreed on all counts: I love JB, but he's got a lot of potential improvement on his impact. Upside!
Amazing analysis from Magic:
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/magicjohnson/status/1300849171067367424
Earvin Magic Johnson
@MagicJohnson
I'm so excited for Denver vs. Utah Game 7 & to see Jamal Murray vs. Donovan Mitchell! For Denver to win, Nikola Jokić, Gary Harris, Paul Millsap, or Michael Porter Jr. has to step up! For Utah to win, it's on Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, Joe Ingles, or Rudy Gobert to step up.
1:33 PM · Sep 1, 2020
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/magicjohnson/status/1300849171067367424
Earvin Magic Johnson
@MagicJohnson
I'm so excited for Denver vs. Utah Game 7 & to see Jamal Murray vs. Donovan Mitchell! For Denver to win, Nikola Jokić, Gary Harris, Paul Millsap, or Michael Porter Jr. has to step up! For Utah to win, it's on Mike Conley, Jordan Clarkson, Joe Ingles, or Rudy Gobert to step up.
1:33 PM · Sep 1, 2020
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-predictions/?ex_cid=rrpromo
I love how bullish 538 is on the Celtics, they really believe in the Tatum/Kemba combo.
It does feel odd to give the Heat/Bucks/Raptors a total of an 8% chance to win the title and the Celtics a 36% chance.
I get some of it is already being up 2-0 in this series, but even so. Feels a little overly optimistic, though of course I hope they are right.
I love how bullish 538 is on the Celtics, they really believe in the Tatum/Kemba combo.
It does feel odd to give the Heat/Bucks/Raptors a total of an 8% chance to win the title and the Celtics a 36% chance.
I get some of it is already being up 2-0 in this series, but even so. Feels a little overly optimistic, though of course I hope they are right.
Fun to know that game 7's are still ugly ass no shooting brawls even in 2020 in the offense boosting bubble.
Yeah.. when Burke said 'that's been a T all year' I just wanted some kind of evidence that that is actually true... because players react like Tatum all of the time. Gobert and Mitchell have both done worse than Tatum did in this game alone.. neither T'd up... and I bet if you went back through the regular season that is usually the case.
Shaq was actually quite skilled IMO.. he could dribble at times and passed pretty decently... a couple things:
- The center was an entirely different position when he was playing. He was a dominant low post player so he didn't need to shoot from outside.. nor did his teams want him to.
- His body shape was entirely different than GA.. although he was quite a bit thinner when he started with Orlando.
- He was the most dominant player on a purely physical level for probably a decade or so? They basically had to change the rules to keep him from backing players down.
Here's some highlights.. I forgot how often he would lead the break.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grY7aB0m_1k
Shaq has become underrated over time. Shaq dominated his way to three straight titles, something only Jordan, Bill Russell and George Mikan have done. His passing, defense, footwork, and soft touch around the rim are very underrated; he did more than just dunk the basketball.