"We're going to Disney World!" NBA to resume season July 31 at WDW

benhogan

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There probably isn’t a player who benefits more from the tunnel vision and sight lines that the bubble provides. Next season will be interesting to see how far his 3-point shooting slides from Orlando.
I remember Jamal roasting Kyrie a few years ago, when he gets going he can be unstoppable.
 

lovegtm

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Between Murray/Jokic, Bam/Herro/Robinson, and Tatum/Jaylen/Smart, that's 3/4 semifinalists with young cores that have room to grow further. Really fun to watch a new generation come into its own.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Between Murray/Jokic, Bam/Herro/Robinson, and Tatum/Jaylen/Smart, that's 3/4 semifinalists with young cores that have room to grow further. Really fun to watch a new generation come into its own.
You also obviously have the Doncic/KP Mavs, the Grizzlies, the Pelicans and even the Suns all making noise in the bubble and playoff games. The next few years are likely to feature one or more of those teams in the later rounds.
 

lovegtm

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You also obviously have the Doncic/KP Mavs, the Grizzlies, the Pelicans and even the Suns all making noise in the bubble and playoff games. The next few years are likely to feature one or more of those teams in the later rounds.
Oh, no doubt at all. It's just really cool to see the Final 4 already being primarily about the young guns.

After these playoffs we're going to have to update our evaluations of which teams are star-loaded, and that's awesome.
 

benhogan

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He had 50 against us

Edit: sorry it was 48 and he went for 50 at the end
that's right and Ky was all bent out of shape. Jamal also did some shenanigans with Lonzo.

For some reason, I don't find him so repellent now.;)

He's 62/130 for 48% on 3s in the playoffs this year vs. being below 35% during the regular season. Definitely liking the comfy confines of the bubble gym.
 

Devizier

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If the Celtics are fortunate enough to make the finals and happen to play the Nuggets, I can see that Murray is going to make me want to pull my hair out.
 

Dahabenzapple2

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If the Celtics are fortunate enough to make the finals and happen to play the Nuggets, I can see that Murray is going to make me want to pull my hair out.
Hopefully we will get that opportunity - and thankfully the Celtics have Marcus Smart. One would think there is no one better equipped to guard Murray.
 

the moops

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Between Murray/Jokic, Bam/Herro/Robinson, and Tatum/Jaylen/Smart, that's 3/4 semifinalists with young cores that have room to grow further. Really fun to watch a new generation come into its own.
While he has been putrid at defense, you probably should include Porter Jr in the DEN young core
 

lovegtm

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While he has been putrid at defense, you probably should include Porter Jr in the DEN young core
For sure--that's an oversight, and their future is very bright. I'll admit to having been plain dead wrong about Playoff Jokic, and I also was meh on Murray prior to this run.
 

Jimbodandy

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For sure--that's an oversight, and their future is very bright. I'll admit to having been plain dead wrong about Playoff Jokic, and I also was meh on Murray prior to this run.
I'll admit that I haven't looked at the numbers, but my eyes don't see much difference between Porter and Kuzma. Useful guys but not anyone's core.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I'll admit that I haven't looked at the numbers, but my eyes don't see much difference between Porter and Kuzma. Useful guys but not anyone's core.

Come to think of it, that's probably the best comp I've heard for him, even if I think it does sell him a bit short, from what I’ve seen. Numbers-wise, he’s rebounding much better and scoring a lot more efficiently than Kuz did as a rookie (or since), while doing it for a playoff team at a younger age. Granted he typically has one or both of Jokic and Murray to soak up opposing defenses' attention, but his superior shooting alone makes his offensive potential brighter than Kuzma's ever was, and playing off Jokic really accentuates his skill as a cutter. On the flipside, my eyes say he’s even worse than Kuzma was as a rookie on the defensive end, and the metrics have them comparably bad, which should immediately end any of the misguided comparisons to Tatum that I've seen crop up. Maybe Kuzma as somewhere between his floor and median outcome, with a Melo-ish ceiling, with a dash of injury and personality concerns.

Speaking of off-base comps, remember those insufferable Kuzma/Tatum arguments from 2018? Yeah...

View: https://twitter.com/NBA_Math/status/1308794502426112001/photo/1


Playoff TPA, overall:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eim9jWXVgAA8cxv?format=jpg&name=small

TPA explained: https://nbamath.com/tpa-model/
 

Cesar Crespo

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For sure--that's an oversight, and their future is very bright. I'll admit to having been plain dead wrong about Playoff Jokic, and I also was meh on Murray prior to this run.
I think this board has a negative bias towards offense minded players. There was a lot of that towards Booker and Ingram. Murray somewhat escaped it but he somewhat escaped the press all together. He was also on a winning team.

I've been big on Denver and their future for awhile. It really only takes one or two players to change everything tho.
 

benhogan

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I think this board has a negative bias towards offense minded players. There was a lot of that towards Booker and Ingram. Murray somewhat escaped it but he somewhat escaped the press all together. He was also on a winning team.

I've been big on Denver and their future for awhile. It really only takes one or two players to change everything tho.
Can't recall anyone going negative on Devon, unless it was about him celebrating his point total vs the C's a few seasons ago?

BUT you're correct that Ingram definitely has had his detractors in the past. He massively improved this past season so that's slowed.

Still thrilled Danny drafted JB and didn't get enamored with BI.
 
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Kliq

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Porter is closer to Tatum than he is to Kuzma; like a lot closer. Yes his defense is very bad, but he is a rookie that has only played 900 minutes in the regular season, in most cases those players are going to be very bad when they get thrown into the league, especially on a very competitive team where opponents are going to hunt that matchup. I think his potential on defense, thanks to his length and athleticism, is still fairly high and he should become average, if not above-average, if he can stay healthy. He is already a good rebounder.

I do think pedigree matters as well. This is a guy who probably would have gone #1 in the draft if he had been healthy, and has much more skill than Kuzma. He is three years younger than Kuzma, and already a much better three point shooter, a much better ball handler, and much better at getting to the line. If he continues to improve and stay healthy, in the right situation he could average an efficient 30 ppg. He is that gifted.
 

the moops

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I'll admit that I haven't looked at the numbers, but my eyes don't see much difference between Porter and Kuzma. Useful guys but not anyone's core.
Hmm.
Porter is a much better 3pt shooter and rebounder and is 3 years younger than Kuzma.

Porter could be a top 10-20 player in the league if things break right. No chance Kuzma reaches that level even if everything goes right for him
 

Cesar Crespo

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Can't recall anyone going negative on Devon, unless it was about him celebrating his point total vs the C's a few seasons ago?

BUT you're correct that Ingram definitely has had his detractors in the past. He massively improved this past season so that's slowed.

Still thrilled Danny drafted JB over BI.
You'd have to go back a few years for the Booker hate. A lot of the "one way" offensive players need some time to get adjusted and a lot of them are in losing situations from the start.

I'd probably take JB over BI too but I've always liked BI and could see why some would prefer him.
 

Euclis20

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Come to think of it, that's probably the best comp I've heard for him, even if I think it does sell him a bit short, from what I’ve seen. Numbers-wise, he’s rebounding much better and scoring a lot more efficiently than Kuz did as a rookie (or since), while doing it for a playoff team at a younger age. Granted he typically has one or both of Jokic and Murray to soak up opposing defenses' attention, but his superior shooting alone makes his offensive potential brighter than Kuzma's ever was, and playing off Jokic really accentuates his skill as a cutter. On the flipside, my eyes say he’s even worse than Kuzma was as a rookie on the defensive end, and the metrics have them comparably bad, which should immediately end any of the misguided comparisons to Tatum that I've seen crop up. Maybe Kuzma as somewhere between his floor and median outcome, with a Melo-ish ceiling, with a dash of injury and personality concerns.

Speaking of off-base comps, remember those insufferable Kuzma/Tatum arguments from 2018? Yeah...

View: https://twitter.com/NBA_Math/status/1308794502426112001/photo/1


Playoff TPA, overall:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eim9jWXVgAA8cxv?format=jpg&name=small

TPA explained: https://nbamath.com/tpa-model/
That's a fun chart. I get the Tatum/Porter comp, because Porter looks and moves a bit like Tatum on the court, and he also seems extremely young to be contributing to a team that's gone deep in the playoffs. Getting below skin level, it's more than a bit ridiculous. As a rookie Tatum started 80 games and was arguably the best player in the playoffs for a 55 win team that got to game 7 of the conference finals, while Porter as a red shirt rookie started just 8 games and is nothing more than a good role player. Despite how young he looks, Porter is just 3 months younger than Tatum right now, let alone two years ago when Tatum was a true freshman. Based on his press statement last week and his comments on Covid, he also seems like an idiot. This is to say, he's got just about nothing in common with Tatum besides potential and size. Porter is light years away from recognizing his, while Tatum is already an all NBA guy with room to grow.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That's a fun chart. I get the Tatum/Porter comp, because Porter looks and moves a bit like Tatum on the court, and he also seems extremely young to be contributing to a team that's gone deep in the playoffs. Getting below skin level, it's more than a bit ridiculous. As a rookie Tatum started 80 games and was arguably the best player in the playoffs for a 55 win team that got to game 7 of the conference finals, while Porter as a red shirt rookie started just 8 games and is nothing more than a good role player. Despite how young he looks, Porter is just 3 months younger than Tatum right now, let alone two years ago when Tatum was a true freshman. Based on his press statement last week and his comments on Covid, he also seems like an idiot. This is to say, he's got just about nothing in common with Tatum besides potential and size. Porter is light years away from recognizing his, while Tatum is already an all NBA guy with room to grow.
I don't think Porter is all that close to Tatum or Kuzma. Granted, I'm not a fan of Kuzma at all.

Kuzma came to the NBA as a mostly finished product and hasn't really improved.
 

lovegtm

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I think this board has a negative bias towards offense minded players. There was a lot of that towards Booker and Ingram. Murray somewhat escaped it but he somewhat escaped the press all together. He was also on a winning team.

I've been big on Denver and their future for awhile. It really only takes one or two players to change everything tho.
Hmmmm...I’m generally high on offense-minded guys, since that’s the premium NBA skill. My issue with Jokic was that I thought his post game wasn’t good enough to be a difference maker, and that the cutesy passing/cutting wouldn’t translate in intense playoff environments. That’s clearly wrong, and he’s also adding a lot of range.

Murray...he just seemed like an all-offense guy who wasn’t that great at the offense part. Also wrong.
 

Euclis20

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I think this board has a negative bias towards offense minded players. There was a lot of that towards Booker and Ingram. Murray somewhat escaped it but he somewhat escaped the press all together. He was also on a winning team.

I've been big on Denver and their future for awhile. It really only takes one or two players to change everything tho.
I think it's fair when to level that criticism to label some of that offense as empty calories when the players are a net negative on defense and are putting up the numbers for bad teams. It's a fine line I suppose, but I'm ok with it.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think it's fair when to level that criticism to label some of that offense as empty calories when the players are a net negative on defense and are putting up the numbers for bad teams. It's a fine line I suppose, but I'm ok with it.
Yeah I don't mean it as an insult. I'm probably biased towards shooting and playmaking. I also hate PG who can't shoot or hit their FT.
 

DannyDarwinism

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That's a fun chart. I get the Tatum/Porter comp, because Porter looks and moves a bit like Tatum on the court, and he also seems extremely young to be contributing to a team that's gone deep in the playoffs. Getting below skin level, it's more than a bit ridiculous. As a rookie Tatum started 80 games and was arguably the best player in the playoffs for a 55 win team that got to game 7 of the conference finals, while Porter as a red shirt rookie started just 8 games and is nothing more than a good role player. Despite how young he looks, Porter is just 3 months younger than Tatum right now, let alone two years ago when Tatum was a true freshman. Based on his press statement last week and his comments on Covid, he also seems like an idiot. This is to say, he's got just about nothing in common with Tatum besides potential and size. Porter is light years away from recognizing his, while Tatum is already an all NBA guy with room to grow.
34393


Yeah, same age, and they've been battling for a long time, but something tells me Tatum isn't losing playoff minutes to a fossilized Paul Millsap or Torrey Craig. Defense matters, particularly for wings, and if you're going to be a bad defensive player, you need to be an absolutely elite-level, scheme-warping offensive player to get to be considered in the top tier of the NBA. Luka's the prime example, Booker to a lesser extent. All that said, I think MPJ's offensive ceiling is really high, so I'm not that down on him. He has a high center of gravity, which looks like it hurts his lateral movement, so I don't think he'll ever be a good defensive player, but a lot of the really egregious stuff I've seen is effort and awareness, which can be corrected, in theory. He definitely seems like a bit of a clown though.

FWIW, HoopsHype recently polled 15 NBA talent evaluators (4 GMs, 6 "executives", and 5 scouts) to rank which players under 25 they'd build around, and MPJ didn't crack the top 13, while Tatum came in 2nd, behind Luka.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-execs-poll-luka-doncic-top-young-talent-zion-williamson/

Trae left completely off the list, and KAT comes in at #13, behind Jaylen at 11.It's not just the Port Cellar that has a bias against bad defensive players.
 

Euclis20

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The other giant strike against Porter is health. He's missed lots of time from a back injury, which is a massive red flag. Those things stick around, and is as big of a differentiator as any when mentioning him and Tatum in the same sentence.
 

Jimbodandy

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The Tatum comp to Porter is mindblowingly bad, even if you squint.

If you held a draft right now from the four teams left in the bubble, Porter isn't a top 15 pick. Tatum would be top 2/3.

Yes, he has skills and can shoot. He's a useful player. He's better than Kuzma of course, because he has upside. But the comp to me is better because they're both good if you leave them alone.

Porter's ceiling is a taller Middleton with no defense. Maybe makes a couple of all star teams if things break right. Tatum's ceiling is the best player in basketball.
 

ManicCompression

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The thing about Porter's D is that it's made so much worse by who he's surrounded with. Playing with Jokic at center magnifies the weaknesses of their perimeter D because there's no one to clean up the mistakes. It's hard to say how much he's individually responsible for because they have several negatives on D - he may just be kinda bad instead of awful.

Their plus defenders are pretty much Harris, Grant, and Milsap (with maybe Torrey Craig in that mix). Two of those guys play the same position as Porter, so when he shares the floor with Jokic and Murray, it's a really bad mix on that side of the floor.

I think he's shown that he can be a force there between his rebounding and ability to block shots, but he's not going to be a consistent value add on that side right now due to his youth and who he plays with.
 

Kliq

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I think people are being a little sensitive about the Porter/JT comps. Nobody here is saying that Porter is better than Tatum, or that they would trade Tatum for Porter, or anything like that. Personally, I was reacting to the idea that Porter was more similar to Kuzma than Tatum, but Porter just has a way higher ceiling than Kuzma, which made him (to me) similar to Tatum. I still like Tatum more as a franchise player, but if things go right for Porter (big if given his injury history) he could be close to Tatum as a player.

They are the same age, but the difference in playing experience is enormous, so I don't think you can really compare Porter now, such an unfinished product, to Tatum. Tatum has room to grow for sure, but he is probably about 90% of what he is going to be. Porter is probably only like, 20% of where he can be. It is an apples to oranges comparison.

I did find this comparison on Basketball-Reference, which I find pretty interesting. Two rookies playing significant minutes in the playoffs; per 36 minutes:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2018&player_id2_hint=Michael+Porter+Jr.&player_id2_select=Michael+Porter+Jr.&player_id2=portemi01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020
Code:
Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS  MP  FG  FGA   FG  3P 3PA   3P  2P  2PA   2P  FT FTA   FT ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Michael Porter 2019-20  21 17  3 414 6.0 13.0 .463 2.5 6.9 .367 3.5  6.1 .571 2.3 2.9 .788 1.8 8.3 10.2 1.3 1.0 0.5 2.0 3.4 16.8
2      Jayson Tatum 2017-18  19 19 19 683 6.5 13.8 .471 1.2 3.7 .324 5.3 10.0 .526 4.3 5.1 .845 0.5 3.8  4.4 2.7 1.2 0.5 2.2 2.6 18.5
Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 9/23/2020.
 

nighthob

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BUT you're correct that Ingram definitely has had his detractors in the past. He massively improved this past season so that's slowed.
Except defensively. We get upset at Brown for his defensive lapses, I can only imagine the anger here with Ingram's hand waving D.

He also demands to be the center of the offense and he's still not good enough for the role.

Still thrilled Danny drafted JB and didn't get enamored with BI.
I too am thrilled that Boston landed the third pick.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think people are being a little sensitive about the Porter/JT comps. Nobody here is saying that Porter is better than Tatum, or that they would trade Tatum for Porter, or anything like that. Personally, I was reacting to the idea that Porter was more similar to Kuzma than Tatum, but Porter just has a way higher ceiling than Kuzma, which made him (to me) similar to Tatum. I still like Tatum more as a franchise player, but if things go right for Porter (big if given his injury history) he could be close to Tatum as a player.

They are the same age, but the difference in playing experience is enormous, so I don't think you can really compare Porter now, such an unfinished product, to Tatum. Tatum has room to grow for sure, but he is probably about 90% of what he is going to be. Porter is probably only like, 20% of where he can be. It is an apples to oranges comparison.

I did find this comparison on Basketball-Reference, which I find pretty interesting. Two rookies playing significant minutes in the playoffs; per 36 minutes:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2018&player_id2_hint=Michael+Porter+Jr.&player_id2_select=Michael+Porter+Jr.&player_id2=portemi01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020
Code:
Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS  MP  FG  FGA   FG  3P 3PA   3P  2P  2PA   2P  FT FTA   FT ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Michael Porter 2019-20  21 17  3 414 6.0 13.0 .463 2.5 6.9 .367 3.5  6.1 .571 2.3 2.9 .788 1.8 8.3 10.2 1.3 1.0 0.5 2.0 3.4 16.8
2      Jayson Tatum 2017-18  19 19 19 683 6.5 13.8 .471 1.2 3.7 .324 5.3 10.0 .526 4.3 5.1 .845 0.5 3.8  4.4 2.7 1.2 0.5 2.2 2.6 18.5
Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 9/23/2020.
So we're sold on Porter because he is good at offense in the bubble. I give up. I feel like I'm having the Dragan Bender 36% conversations again.
 

Euclis20

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I think people are being a little sensitive about the Porter/JT comps. Nobody here is saying that Porter is better than Tatum, or that they would trade Tatum for Porter, or anything like that. Personally, I was reacting to the idea that Porter was more similar to Kuzma than Tatum, but Porter just has a way higher ceiling than Kuzma, which made him (to me) similar to Tatum. I still like Tatum more as a franchise player, but if things go right for Porter (big if given his injury history) he could be close to Tatum as a player.

They are the same age, but the difference in playing experience is enormous, so I don't think you can really compare Porter now, such an unfinished product, to Tatum. Tatum has room to grow for sure, but he is probably about 90% of what he is going to be. Porter is probably only like, 20% of where he can be. It is an apples to oranges comparison.

I did find this comparison on Basketball-Reference, which I find pretty interesting. Two rookies playing significant minutes in the playoffs; per 36 minutes:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1_select=Jayson+Tatum&player_id1=tatumja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2018&player_id2_hint=Michael+Porter+Jr.&player_id2_select=Michael+Porter+Jr.&player_id2=portemi01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020
Code:
Rk           Player  Season Age  G GS  MP  FG  FGA   FG  3P 3PA   3P  2P  2PA   2P  FT FTA   FT ORB DRB  TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
1    Michael Porter 2019-20  21 17  3 414 6.0 13.0 .463 2.5 6.9 .367 3.5  6.1 .571 2.3 2.9 .788 1.8 8.3 10.2 1.3 1.0 0.5 2.0 3.4 16.8
2      Jayson Tatum 2017-18  19 19 19 683 6.5 13.8 .471 1.2 3.7 .324 5.3 10.0 .526 4.3 5.1 .845 0.5 3.8  4.4 2.7 1.2 0.5 2.2 2.6 18.5
Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 9/23/2020.
Per 36 minutes stats mean literally nothing when you're comparing one guy playing less than 25 mpg who was a [distant] 3rd or 4th option with another guy who actually averaged 36 mpg and was the 1st option, to say nothing of the two year age difference. I know you added some qualifiers, but this statistical comparison is 100% meaningless.
 

McBride11

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It will be really weird if Rondo wins a title as a C beating the Lakers and then winning as a Laker beating the Cs. OR just winning as both a LAL and Celtic even
 

BaseballJones

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It will be really weird if Rondo wins a title as a C beating the Lakers and then winning as a Laker beating the Cs. OR just winning as both a LAL and Celtic even
I wonder how many guys have done that - winning titles as a Laker and a Celtic. Despite those teams combining for an enormous number of championships, I bet the list is pretty short.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Umm, did nobody see that Jamal Murray finish on Lebron? If not, watch Sportscenter at some point in the next 10 years, you'll see it again.

Edit: Right after PCFriar saw it, apparently.
 

McBride11

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I wonder how many guys have done that - winning titles as a Laker and a Celtic. Despite those teams combining for an enormous number of championships, I bet the list is pretty short.
Based upon a brief Google search I cannot find one. But smarter people might

The NBA needs to address the 3 point shot foul calls.
Harden says shut your mouth (tho I agree)
 

Tony C

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Murray just told the "A spectacular move, by Michael Jordan" to hold his beer.
LeBron's look was amazing -- like...wow.

This is an excellent game. Jokic and Murrary are so good and so fun. And LeBron and Davis are...well, obviously, they're great.