What If…? Red Sox Edition

[Norm Siebern]

What if Don Zimmer isn't a Neanderthal in spikes and forces out Ferguson Jenkins, Bernie Carbo and Reggie Cleveland at the end of 1977? Does the front office still sign Torrez if they already have Jenkins? Maybe they decide to spend all that money on Gossage instead. Or maybe they still sign Torrez and have a rotation of Eckersley, Tiant, Jenkins and Torrez. There is no playoff game if that is the starting rotation, the Red Sox win the division going away. And what if Bill Campbell doesn't blow his arm out throwing consecutive seasons of IP in relief of 160 and 135 innings, and he is still an ace relief pitcher in '78?

What if Bernie Carbo pinch hits instead of Bob Bailey?
What if Cecil Cooper isn't traded for George Scott?
What if Burleson, Fisk and Lynn have their contracts mailed on time?

Again, what if Don Zimmer were not an imbecilic, barely functioning Neanderthal?

 

[chrisfont9]

I do wonder how Boston would be perceived in terms of race relations had we signed Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays instead of Ted. Yes, Red had Bill Russell but the Sox have a special—and prominent—place in Boston sports and culture.

Weeelllll... Russell's experience with Boston fans was downright horrifyingly ugly at times, and that was the more enlightened Celtics' fanbase. I don't think having emerging black superstars on the Sox was going to make all those leopards in the stands change their spots. At best, the Sox' fanbase would have been just one more example of people who can put aside their abject racism for a few minutes if it benefits their favorite team.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

What if Don Zimmer isn't a Neanderthal in spikes and forces out Ferguson Jenkins, Bernie Carbo and Reggie Cleveland at the end of 1977? Does the front office still sign Torrez if they already have Jenkins? Maybe they decide to spend all that money on Gossage instead. Or maybe they still sign Torrez and have a rotation of Eckersley, Tiant, Jenkins and Torrez. There is no playoff game if that is the starting rotation, the Red Sox win the division going away. And what if Bill Campbell doesn't blow his arm out throwing consecutive seasons of IP in relief of 160 and 135 innings, and he is still an ace relief pitcher in '78?

What if Bernie Carbo pinch hits instead of Bob Bailey?
What if Cecil Cooper isn't traded for George Scott?
What if Burleson, Fisk and Lynn have their contracts mailed on time?

Again, what if Don Zimmer were not an imbecilic, barely functioning Neanderthal?

You’re killing me. Please stop. That’s my whole f’n childhood/teenage years…

 

[Norm Siebern]

You’re killing me. Please stop. That’s my whole f’n childhood/teenage years…

Yep. Me too. That's why the scars burn so very deep.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Yep. Me too. That's why the scars burn so very deep.

Zimmer burned out Campbell in 77, and by benching The Spaceman definitely cost our team the division in 78. Lee's lifetime record against MFY.......10-3. All because he said he looked like a gerbil.

 

[jaytftwofive]

What if Don Zimmer isn't a Neanderthal in spikes and forces out Ferguson Jenkins, Bernie Carbo and Reggie Cleveland at the end of 1977? Does the front office still sign Torrez if they already have Jenkins? Maybe they decide to spend all that money on Gossage instead. Or maybe they still sign Torrez and have a rotation of Eckersley, Tiant, Jenkins and Torrez. There is no playoff game if that is the starting rotation, the Red Sox win the division going away. And what if Bill Campbell doesn't blow his arm out throwing consecutive seasons of IP in relief of 160 and 135 innings, and he is still an ace relief pitcher in '78?

What if Bernie Carbo pinch hits instead of Bob Bailey?
What if Cecil Cooper isn't traded for George Scott?
What if Burleson, Fisk and Lynn have their contracts mailed on time?

Again, what if Don Zimmer were not an imbecilic, barely functioning Neanderthal?

Yes trading a young talent like Cecil Cooper for a popular former player like Boomer was definitely one of the worst trades for our team. The Brewers also demanded! that the Sox had to take Carbo back also in the trade so Bernie came back.

 

[jaytftwofive]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Bagwell trade or Jamie Moyer for Darren Bragg in 96. And then at the end of 97 Aaron Sele for Jim Leyritz. Moyer was no superstar but he was a solid good lefty and only 33 or 34 at the time. (I Think he pitched till he was 47 or more) Sele and Moyer both helped the Mariners win 116 games in 01 without Griffey, A-Roid and Randy Johnson, the 3 best players in their history. (Pre-Ichiro) You don't trade decent good pitching for somewhat good hitters. Obviously the Sox don't beat out the Yanks in 98 for first but maybe or a good chance in 99 and 2000, with these two guys on our teams staff. Moyer went on to lead the WS Champion Phillies in wins in 08 at age 44 or 45.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Weeelllll... Russell's experience with Boston fans was downright horrifyingly ugly at times, and that was the more enlightened Celtics' fanbase. I don't think having emerging black superstars on the Sox was going to make all those leopards in the stands change their spots. At best, the Sox' fanbase would have been just one more example of people who can put aside their abject racism for a few minutes if it benefits their favorite team.

I believe in some Polyanna glass full way that had they signed Jackie and Willie Mays that could have changed a lot of racial perceptions in Boston. Rachel Robinson has said that Jackie had little or zero trouble in Boston when he played the Braves here. Not like Philadelphia or St. Louis. Ben Chapman the Phillies manager was the worst to Jackie and the fans of those teams were also. Jackie had said the worst city was believe it or not.....Syracuse, when he was in the minor leagues.

 

[trekfan55]

The whole talk about Robinson and Mays is interesting.

But the thing is, after Robinson was signed, the Sox had the absolute upper hand in signing Willie Mays. It was Yawkey`s refusal that did not allow that to happen. And that is a huge "what if".

 

[lexrageorge]

What if Don Zimmer isn't a Neanderthal in spikes and forces out Ferguson Jenkins, Bernie Carbo and Reggie Cleveland at the end of 1977? Does the front office still sign Torrez if they already have Jenkins? Maybe they decide to spend all that money on Gossage instead. Or maybe they still sign Torrez and have a rotation of Eckersley, Tiant, Jenkins and Torrez. There is no playoff game if that is the starting rotation, the Red Sox win the division going away. And what if Bill Campbell doesn't blow his arm out throwing consecutive seasons of IP in relief of 160 and 135 innings, and he is still an ace relief pitcher in '78?

What if Bernie Carbo pinch hits instead of Bob Bailey?
What if Cecil Cooper isn't traded for George Scott?
What if Burleson, Fisk and Lynn have their contracts mailed on time?

Again, what if Don Zimmer were not an imbecilic, barely functioning Neanderthal?

Technically, Cleveland and Carbo weren't traded until the 1978 season. But the games below show the juxtaposition of these moves and the impact they had. In the first one, Bill Campbell comes in and shuts the door on the Indians for his first victory of the season.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS197804231.shtml

The reason I show the above will become apparent when I show the one below, when Zimmer trots out Campbell for the 2nd time in the same fucking day to relieve Eckersley in the 2nd half of a double header, with the result that Campbell gives up a 2 run lead (one of those inherited) and later gives up another in his 4th inning of work. OK, admittedly Campbell hadn't pitched in nearly 2 weeks, but 2 outings in the same day??

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS197804232.shtml

The next time we see Campbell is here. After the Red Sox scratched out the go-ahead run against Texas reliever Reggie Cleveland to take the lead at the top of the 11th, Campbell is brought in to close the game and promptly gives up a single and a home run to blow his 3rd save of the season (in April!).

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX197804280.shtml

Finally, we have this game, where Jenkins and Cleveland team up to beat the Sox in Fenway, outpitching Mike Torrez in the process:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS197807140.shtml

Win any of those 3, and there is no need for Bucky Dent.