What is this team missing?

Jimbodandy

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around the way
They need to finish better. They got tight and the older Miami guys just didn't. Some vet presence off the bench would really help as well.

That someone posted "Brad Stevens is trending on twitter" is mind-blowing to me. The NBA twitterverse is the worst of the major sports. Let's not echo that stupid shit here.
 

OurF'ingCity

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If Langford can provide some of the defense Smart’s absence would create, would that change things for you?
Somewhat, but the problem is they won't know that until they have a good amount of games under their belt next season, so trading Smart now and just hoping that Langford could pick up some of the slack would be a major risk to put it lightly. Longer-term, Langford turning into the next Smart would be absolutely massive to the team's potential regardless of whether they traded Smart. But I feel like Langford still has a ways to go - I'd actually be more open to trading Langford than I would trading Smart if there's another team interested that's willing to give up an interesting piece, although it gets complicated with matching salaries so it would probably have to be a larger trade (including Theis or Kanter as well, for example).

Frankly, there is a case to be made that he got more out of this roster because he prepared Grant Williams and some of the other rotation guys to play well during the playoffs when most other teams have more seasoned veterans taking those valuable bench minutes.
Not disagreeing with you at all but none of that means Stevens' in-game decisionmaking shouldn't be open to criticism. Stevens has room for improvement just like most other coaches and players.

Get one of those guys at #14. Different players but all can really stroke it.
Yes, even more so than in past years nailing their first pick is going to be crucial. One need look no farther than the Heat for an example of how drafting an instant-offense type guy can be critical to a playoff run - if the two picks were reversed and the Heat went with Langford and then the Celtics took Herro it's basically a certainty that it would be the Cs and not the Heat in the Finals right now.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Maybe bring in an offensive minded assistant. Ideally someone with prior head coaching experience that Brad can lean on. Stevens staff is mostly college guys or D-League coaches.
 

lovegtm

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Tatum and Brown are young. They will get better, and by a lot.

Hayward is a salary slot and one more year maximum. Workable.

The tricky part is Kemba. He simply didn’t play up to the contract in the postseason, and some of the things he adds will be redundant as Tatum/Brown improve, especially when you consider his defensive issues.

If they could find a way to deal Kemba to a scoring-desperate team like Utah, that would go a long way.

Kemba is very good and a great guy, but winning NBA championships is hard and you have tough choices at the margins.
 

benhogan

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Maturity, 10 more lbs of muscle for Jaylen and Tatum, 2 guys who are 3-point specialist types, and a healthy Hayward.

Honestly, my only real disappointment from this postseason was seeing how Kemba was exposed. He is just too small, can’t finish in the lane, and is a liability defensively. I think he is a fine 4th option for them, but they couldn’t muster much offense and his shitty handle and inability to score off drives killed them when the shooting was off. Not sure they they can, or want, to do anything with him — but they need another ballhandler who can penetrate and create and give them another scoring option off the bench.

I love the core of this team, and they weren’t ready yet, but they are going to be a LOT of fun to watch for years to come.
THIS.

offseason To-Do list:
1. Jays mature, get stronger, and improve.
2. Danny needs to draft well...wings, wings, and more wings
3. Danny needs to sign a vet ring chaser (mid-level exception)
4. Kemba probably needs knee surgery and don't care if he misses the first half of next season.
5. Grant works on corner 3's all Fall and becomes our "PJ Tucker"
6. while still raw, TL and Romeo get better and bring more bench depth next season
7. Theis & Kanter return and continue to be efficient
8. Marcus Smart named Captain
 

BigSoxFan

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Tatum and Brown are young. They will get better, and by a lot.

Hayward is a salary slot and one more year maximum. Workable.

The tricky part is Kemba. He simply didn’t play up to the contract in the postseason, and some of the things he adds will be redundant as Tatum/Brown improve, especially when you consider his defensive issues.

If they could find a way to deal Kemba to a scoring-desperate team like Utah, that would go a long way.

Kemba is very good and a great guy, but winning NBA championships is hard and you have tough choices at the margins.
Nobody in their right mind is trading for Kemba unless they’re offloading a similarly troublesome contract and/or receiving real assets in return. One trade I would be interested in is CP3. I’d much rather have him at 35/36 than Kemba’s early 30s.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I am pretty bearish on Timelord since his defensive instincts seem very bad, but centers occasionally take a while to pick that stuff up. Is he able to find the minutes to figure his shit out though?
I think the Celtics are obliged to give him those minutes. It is clear today that he is erratic enough not to be trusted by his coach, but also capable of contributing to winning games in the playoffs. He needs to be Theis' primary backup next year and start getting the consistent experience he needs to develop his game.
Tatum's stat lines each game:

G1: 30 points, 14 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 blocks, 3 steals
G2: 21 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block, 1 steal
G3: 25 points, 14 rebounds, 8 assists, 0 blocks, 0 steals
G4: 28 points, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 blocks, 1 steal
G5: 31 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 0 blocks, 1 steal
G6: 24 points, 7 rebounds, 11 assists, 1 block, 2 steals

AVG: 26.5 points, 9.8 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.2 blocks, 1.3 steals

23 years old. Eastern conference finals, not some random 6-game stretch in December against random NBA teams.
Larry Bird, who was older in his NBA debut than Tatum is now, had a career playoff line of: 23.8 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 0.9 blocks, 1.8 steals. I'm not going to take the comparison any futher than that, except to note that Tatum's production put's him in some rarified company.
Except for a few reactionary posts in the game thread I don’t think anyone is actually calling for Stevens to be fired. I think people are just identifying areas of improvement for him, no different than there are areas where Tatum, Jaylen, Smart or whoever can improve.

I also don’t necessarily think Stevens’ extension is a sign that Danny et al. think Stevens is perfect in his postseason coaching - they may just think the positives (his ability to coach up young players, etc.) more than make up for it, whic is a position most people here would agree with. Or maybe they truly do have no issues with his in-game postseason coaching but there’s no way to really know that.
I think Stevens was outcoached badly in this series, and that alone might have been decisive.

At the 6-minute mark Enes Kanter enters the game with the C's holding a 1 point lead (15-14). With under a minute left in the first, Kanter checks out with the C's down 9, 33-24. Outscored 19-9 with Kanter on the floor. With under 9 minutes to go in the 2nd, Kanter checks back in, C's down 5 (40-35). No Grant in the first half, only 3 minutes of Time Lord in the first half (which were decent minutes).

Also Stevens just so often seemed to be behind Spolelstra in making adjustments.

Some of this might have been limitations imposed by his short bench, but better use of the Williamses is an option he had but didn't attempt to use.
 

lovegtm

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Nobody in their right mind is trading for Kemba unless they’re offloading a similarly troublesome contract and/or receiving real assets in return. One trade I would be interested in is CP3. I’d much rather have him at 35/36 than Kemba’s early 30s.
Yes. It is an un-good situation.

However, as much as I don't like the Kemba fit now, this isn't an IT-4 scenario (yet). And as we saw with Westbrook, you can sometimes still get assets for a guy when a team is desperate. I agree that CP3 might make sense, if only to have the money off the books earlier.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yes. It is an un-good situation.

However, as much as I don't like the Kemba fit now, this isn't an IT-4 scenario (yet). And as we saw with Westbrook, you can sometimes still get assets for a guy when a team is desperate. I agree that CP3 might make sense, if only to have the money off the books earlier.
I think the risk is Paul is chemistry issues related to trading Kemba and also Paul physically breaking down. I hope Danny really pokes around on deals like this once Hayward opts in. I’m sure he’ll do his due diligence but guessing we effectively run it back.
 

lovegtm

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I think the risk is Paul is chemistry issues related to trading Kemba and also Paul physically breaking down. I hope Danny really pokes around on deals like this once Hayward opts in. I’m sure he’ll do his due diligence but guessing we effectively run it back.
It sucks so much that Kemba could easily have been Brogdon. Probably a worse regular season, but better cap situation, better next 3 years, and better fit with Tatum+Brown.
 

bsj

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IMO, they can't raise a banner without finding a way to bring in an elite 5. Is there a way? I don't know. Can we package Hayward's contract and Williams and some picks for a KAT type player? probably not, but is there ANY path to a big upgrade at the 5? That's the only way we can win a title IMO.

Agree kemba seems untradeable. But I maintain we can fin with him at the 1 if we upgrade that 5.

Good point re the sniper as well. A Korver type off the bench wouuld have been an asset
 

lexrageorge

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Tatum and Brown are young. They will get better, and by a lot.

Hayward is a salary slot and one more year maximum. Workable.

The tricky part is Kemba. He simply didn’t play up to the contract in the postseason, and some of the things he adds will be redundant as Tatum/Brown improve, especially when you consider his defensive issues.

If they could find a way to deal Kemba to a scoring-desperate team like Utah, that would go a long way.

Kemba is very good and a great guy, but winning NBA championships is hard and you have tough choices at the margins.
The complication is that the Celtics need to make sure that Kemba would want to go to a Utah or OKC. Trading big name free agent acquisitions one year in makes it very difficult to sign upcoming free agents if the player is not on board. Danny has to consider the consequences, even if the team doesn't expect to have cap space in the near future.

But if Kemba is on board, then sure, you try to find a deal. I also think there's a reasonable chance that the Kemba we saw the first half of the season returns, and that is absolutely a player you can win a championship with.
 

NoXInNixon

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IMO, they can't raise a banner without finding a way to bring in an elite 5. Is there a way? I don't know. Can we package Hayward's contract and Williams and some picks for a KAT type player? probably not, but is there ANY path to a big upgrade at the 5? That's the only way we can win a title IMO.
Publicly, Utah says that everything is fine with Gobert's relationship with the team and Mitchell. But what if it isn't? He's got one year left on his contract. They flamed out in the first round. If he's available, can the Celtics get him?

The package would have to start with Jaylen, and any of the players Boston has drafted in the past two years the Jazz like. Let's say it takes Time Lord and Romeo plus one or two of this year's first round picks.

Obviously that's not a fair trade, but the fantasy requires Utah needing to get rid of him, so the question is whether anyone else can beat that package?
 

jmcc5400

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"Start with Jaylen?" Seriously?

Why on earth would you break up a nucleus of 22/23 year old wings who are still ascending and under your control for another few years?

Gobert is one of the main reasons Utah flames out every year.

Everybody needs to take a deep breath. Patience.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Brad Stevens is trending on twitter and it's not good.
That's like pointing out that people in the game thread were calling for Stephens head. Nothing that has ever trended on Twitter has ever mattered.

As for the C's maybe they should adopt the Heat's fitness program. In the ECF thread there was a mention that Olynyk lost 25 lbs when he moved from the C's to the Heat and an article linking their fitness program and their strong late game endurance. You need every edge you can get and if the C's fitness is a step behind that needs to change. Tangentially, a truncated off-season + a long bubble run is less than ideal for the C's. If Kemba couldn't heal between the cancellation of the season and August, how healthy will he be come December? How much strength work can Tatum do in 2+ months?
 

Humphrey

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He was shown up by the coach of the year whose team he defeated? What were the awful gaffes?
Well, nit-picking on my part for sure, but not challenging that block call on Smart and/or not burning all his timeouts when the 3 jacking started were quite puzzling. Even though the block ended up only costing them a point, he could have spent the minute or two "suggesting" to his players they run their offense.
 

BigSoxFan

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They need complimentary pieces for the Jays not players like CP3. Everything going forward in team building should be looked through the prism of “how does he fit around JB and JT?”
This version of Kemba fits horribly with the Jay’s.
 

BaseballJones

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"Start with Jaylen?" Seriously?

Why on earth would you break up a nucleus of 22/23 year old wings who are still ascending and under your control for another few years?

Gobert is one of the main reasons Utah flames out every year.

Everybody needs to take a deep breath. Patience.
Exactly right. What JT and JB have become is precisely what we all in our wildest dreams hoped they'd become. Two legitimate stars who play both ends of the floor at a very high level, who complement one another well, and who are on the verge - if not there already - of superstardom. And they've done it all before the age of 24.

Age of NBA superstars when they won their first title:

Magic: 20 yrs, 276 days - but he had an all-time great team and had an all-time great C in Kareem still playing at his peak
Kobe: 21 yrs, 301 days - but he was the #2 guy behind an uber-dominant Shaq
Havlicek: 23 years, 16 days - but he was on the Russell-Heinsohn Celtics
Russell: 23 years, 60 days - ok, he was the man
Duncan: 23 years, 61 days - on a very good SA team that already had a HOF player in Robinson
McHale: 23 years, 146 days - but he was on the Bird-Parish-DJ-Maxwell Celtics, and was just a reserve at the time
Kareem: 24 years, 14 days - total stud
Wade: 24 years, 154 days - pretty legendary performance that year by D-Wade
Bird: 24 years, 158 days - on a great team, but obviously the best player
Pippen: 25 years, 260 days - #2 guy on Jordan's team
Curry: 27 years, 94 days - emerged as a superstar then
LeBron: 27 years, 174 days - carried his team to a title; also had D-Wade in his prime along with Bosh
Kawhi: 27 years, 349 days - led Toronto to the title
Isiah Thomas: 28 years, 44 days - finally overcame the Celtics and Lakers
Moses Malone: 28 years, 69 days - was paired with Dr J on that great Sixers team
Shaq: 28 years, 105 days - paired with a young Kobe
Jordan: 28 years, 115 days - finally overcame the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers
Durant: 28 years, 256 days - needed to come to GS with Curry and Klay

So here's the point: Very very very very VERY few NBA stars win championships at the age that Brown and Tatum are presently at. Magic did it, but he was on a ridiculously great team with an all-time great C playing at his peak (Jabbar was league MVP). Kobe did it but he had MVP Shaq leading the way. Havlicek did it but he was on the team with Russell and other HOFers. Duncan was the best player on his Spurs championship team, but even he had Robinson who was still a really good player. But Duncan would be the closest thing to a 23 year-old leading his team to a championship.

Look at the rest of the guys. They all needed to be older (in some cases, many years older) than Tatum and Brown are in order to win their titles. Patience is absolutely the name of the game here. Keep these guys together, build around them, and Boston stands a really good chance of hoisting another banner or two.
 

Humphrey

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They need complimentary pieces for the Jays not players like CP3. Everything going forward in team building should be looked through the prism of “how does he fit around JB and JT?”
Depending on a 36 year old guy for major minutes is foolish.
 

benhogan

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It sucks so much that Kemba could easily have been Brogdon. Probably a worse regular season, but better cap situation, better next 3 years, and better fit with Tatum+Brown.
Agreed. Brogdon was the right move for the long-term and was something that was banged on at the time.

Kemba signing was a little bit of a reactionary move, after all the foul air created by KI. Maybe a better way, moving forward, to employ Kemba's talents, is to sub him out first (4ish minute mark) with Smart. Then bring Kemba back when the opponent starts going to their bench (give Tatum/Brown a blow).

Kemba wouldn't get as exposed defensively against 2nd stringers and could be the C's "bench scorer" we all pine for.
 
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benhogan

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Brad Stevens is great, anyone calling for his head is being reactionary. There is ZERO chance CBS gets fired. There is a very small probability he finds something better (in college?) and leaves. His use of TOs/yelling at refs is game thread fodder. His in-game, ATO, rotations, etc mgmt are very good.

That being said, a few things Brad could "steal from Nurse and Spo" are
1. young (non-star) player development
2. use of zone defenses

While Brad is good at both, this is going to be important moving forward. The C's will need TL, Romeo and Grant to play bigger rotational roles over the next few seasons. Plus they have four 2020 picks to fill the bench out. Spo was able to turn three rookies (2 undrafted & a late lottery) into key players all season and it paid off during the playoffs. Toronto's development machine is well documented. Grant was one of the highest-rated rookies on +/- this season and needs to play a bigger role/minutes moving forward. Grant should not be sharing minutes with Semi.
Another innovative move by Spo that Brad could "steal" is the way he employed the 2-3 defense. Using long wings at the top (CBS could use Tatum/Brown) and scrappy guards on the wing (& Smart/Wanamaker) was a very novel approach to the 2-3 and effective.
Brad should also look at Nurse's Box & 1 (FVV face guards the scorer). Over the last few seasons, we've seen guards like Beal, Booker, Hield, Charlotte Kemba, etc work the Celtics over with no answer. Develop a young/ quick/strong guard to get up under those high-scoring guards to slow them down with that annoying/Janky D
 
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lexrageorge

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Exactly right. What JT and JB have become is precisely what we all in our wildest dreams hoped they'd become. Two legitimate stars who play both ends of the floor at a very high level, who complement one another well, and who are on the verge - if not there already - of superstardom. And they've done it all before the age of 24.

Age of NBA superstars when they won their first title:

<snip>

Look at the rest of the guys. They all needed to be older (in some cases, many years older) than Tatum and Brown are in order to win their titles. Patience is absolutely the name of the game here. Keep these guys together, build around them, and Boston stands a really good chance of hoisting another banner or two.
I don't disagree with the main thesis of this post. But I think there's perhaps a misreading of the electorate here.

I haven't seen anyone suggest trading Tatum. I did see a couple of suggestions around trading Brown, but only if it results in a much better player, which probably won't happen anyway. Several posters have indeed suggested trading Kemba; I don't agree, as acquiring CP3 would be a huge step backwards and closes the window before it even begins. Kemba is fine as a 3rd or 4th option; the contract impact is being overstated; when Tatum gets his raise and Brown's extension kicks in, the Celtics will be over the cap regardless of Kemba's salary.

However one feels about trading Kemba, I do think it's fair to point out that the team lacks an ideal supporting cast around Tatum and Brown. When Smart feels he needs to attempt 13 three point shots, there's a problem. We as fans should task Danny with finding a way to get a bench scorer and a defensive big that's better than Theis, rather than using the salary cap and random nature of the draft as excuses. Smart GM's find ways of filling those mid-roster holes.
 

sezwho

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Another year for the Js

A center who isn’t apparently in-foulable(poor Theis)

A recognition that their ice water veins competitors in Toronto and Miami actually took their open shots from three instead of rotating...again. Take the shot GH! Where were you Kemba? Not you Marcus.
 

Dduncan6er

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Wow I'm seeing a ton of over-reaction here. We were likely the better team and just had some crumby end of game sequences which should improve with experience. We were 2-2 in the series once we got Hayward back and he wasn't anywhere near 100%. Tatum and Jaylen are only going to get better in the next couple years and the experience they picked up this year was incredibly valuable.

In a perfect world they add a bench shooter and possibly upgrade Wannamaker and DT. Timelord and Grant Williams both have potential to step into larger roles next year and they have 3 first rounders they can hopefully parlay into at least 1 usable piece for next year. The future is bright and losing in the ECF with your best two players being under 25 is no reason to make substantial changes regardless of how frustrating the loss was.
 

BaseballJones

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I don't disagree with the main thesis of this post. But I think there's perhaps a misreading of the electorate here.

I haven't seen anyone suggest trading Tatum. I did see a couple of suggestions around trading Brown, but only if it results in a much better player, which probably won't happen anyway. Several posters have indeed suggested trading Kemba; I don't agree, as acquiring CP3 would be a huge step backwards and closes the window before it even begins. Kemba is fine as a 3rd or 4th option; the contract impact is being overstated; when Tatum gets his raise and Brown's extension kicks in, the Celtics will be over the cap regardless of Kemba's salary.

However one feels about trading Kemba, I do think it's fair to point out that the team lacks an ideal supporting cast around Tatum and Brown. When Smart feels he needs to attempt 13 three point shots, there's a problem. We as fans should task Danny with finding a way to get a bench scorer and a defensive big that's better than Theis, rather than using the salary cap and random nature of the draft as excuses. Smart GM's find ways of filling those mid-roster holes.
Smart is such a conundrum. He brings so many positives to the team, but man, it's brutal to watch him hoist brick after brick in big spots. Yes, he's gotten marginally better as a shooter, but he's not good enough to justify the volume of shots he takes. So what do you do with a guy like that? He helps you more than he hurts you, so you don't want to get rid of him. But in big games, having him on the floor brings a very real risk that he'll shoot his way to a loss for you.
 

benhogan

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Publicly, Utah says that everything is fine with Gobert's relationship with the team and Mitchell. But what if it isn't? He's got one year left on his contract. They flamed out in the first round. If he's available, can the Celtics get him?

The package would have to start with Jaylen, and any of the players Boston has drafted in the past two years the Jazz like. Let's say it takes Time Lord and Romeo plus one or two of this year's first round picks.

Obviously that's not a fair trade, but the fantasy requires Utah needing to get rid of him, so the question is whether anyone else can beat that package?
No. Never. I would not offer Jaylen for Gobert straight up.

Jaylen is still getting better, not close to being a finished player
 

the moops

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someone useful over 6'8

an actual backup point guard

an actual power forward

a coach who could actually defeat a box and 1 zone
I think Tatum is actually 6'9"
Marcus Smart and Brad Wannamaker are collectively a very good backup PG
MIA had no power forward. You need switachable wings, not a traditional PF
Good luck
 

PedroKsBambino

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It may well be that another year of Grant and TL development gets them what they need for bigs. They also have Waters as a possibly backup PG, though he has some different limitations than Wanna does.

I remain somewhat optimistic about Romeo.

They have three picks potentially coming, and they can use more depth.

It is hard to be down on this team, frankly. If GH opts out that is a real blow short-term and to flexibility. If we learn Kemba's knee will never improve, we just need to adjust to him being an overpaid 25-30 minute guy rather than more. Given J/J/Smart those are manageable. The only way I trade a core piece is if I get an apex-level superstar and I just don't see any available/likely. So, if Milwaukee calls and says "GA for Jaylen and picks" sure, but that ain't happening...
 

EL Jeffe

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Outside of Miami, is there a team/roster in the East you'd trade places with? This is still a very good team who blew by a (potentially) dangerous 76ers squad, defeated the defending champs, and then went toe-to-toe with Miami. I'd also pump the breaks on the Kemba is a Sunk Cost talk. No one here knows what's going on with his knee or what he'll look like when the next season starts up in January with a few months off. My eye test said he had his normal explosiveness against Miami. I'm more concerned with GH and keeping that salary slot intact and useful going forward than I am with Kemba.
 

NoXInNixon

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No. Never. I would not offer Jaylen for Gobert straight up.

Jaylen is still getting better, not close to being a finished player
Gobert is only 28, and is already a 3-time All-NBA player. He's been first team All-defense four times, and twice has been defensive player of the year.

I love Jaylen too, but I don't think he is going to match any of those feats in his career.

Not to mention that defense at the 5 is exactly what this team needs. The Celtics would absolutely do Gobert for Brown straight up, but Utah would need more.
 

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Exactly right. What JT and JB have become is precisely what we all in our wildest dreams hoped they'd become. Two legitimate stars who play both ends of the floor at a very high level, who complement one another well, and who are on the verge - if not there already - of superstardom. And they've done it all before the age of 24.

Age of NBA superstars when they won their first title:

Magic: 20 yrs, 276 days - but he had an all-time great team and had an all-time great C in Kareem still playing at his peak
Kobe: 21 yrs, 301 days - but he was the #2 guy behind an uber-dominant Shaq
Havlicek: 23 years, 16 days - but he was on the Russell-Heinsohn Celtics
Russell: 23 years, 60 days - ok, he was the man
Duncan: 23 years, 61 days - on a very good SA team that already had a HOF player in Robinson
McHale: 23 years, 146 days - but he was on the Bird-Parish-DJ-Maxwell Celtics, and was just a reserve at the time
Kareem: 24 years, 14 days - total stud
Wade: 24 years, 154 days - pretty legendary performance that year by D-Wade
Bird: 24 years, 158 days - on a great team, but obviously the best player
Pippen: 25 years, 260 days - #2 guy on Jordan's team
Curry: 27 years, 94 days - emerged as a superstar then
LeBron: 27 years, 174 days - carried his team to a title; also had D-Wade in his prime along with Bosh
Kawhi: 27 years, 349 days - led Toronto to the title
Isiah Thomas: 28 years, 44 days - finally overcame the Celtics and Lakers
Moses Malone: 28 years, 69 days - was paired with Dr J on that great Sixers team
Shaq: 28 years, 105 days - paired with a young Kobe
Jordan: 28 years, 115 days - finally overcame the Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers
Durant: 28 years, 256 days - needed to come to GS with Curry and Klay

So here's the point: Very very very very VERY few NBA stars win championships at the age that Brown and Tatum are presently at. Magic did it, but he was on a ridiculously great team with an all-time great C playing at his peak (Jabbar was league MVP). Kobe did it but he had MVP Shaq leading the way. Havlicek did it but he was on the team with Russell and other HOFers. Duncan was the best player on his Spurs championship team, but even he had Robinson who was still a really good player. But Duncan would be the closest thing to a 23 year-old leading his team to a championship.

Look at the rest of the guys. They all needed to be older (in some cases, many years older) than Tatum and Brown are in order to win their titles. Patience is absolutely the name of the game here. Keep these guys together, build around them, and Boston stands a really good chance of hoisting another banner or two.
I think this is a good post, and something I've been talking about for a while. I think the examples of MJ, LBJ, and Durant are especially enlightening.
One correction, however, is that Kawhi first won with SA in 2014 when he was very young. Doesn't change the overall point, however.
 

NomarsFool

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Can't Kemba Walker be the sharpshooter the Celtics need?

I'm really psyched about what we saw out of Brown and Tatum these playoffs. Tatum learning to be a playmaker, and Brown just learning to show up each and every night. Those two make the All-Star team next season, and having two stars in their prime (and hopefully soon locked into long term deals) is a great foundation for this team.

I'm frustrated that we are STILL waiting to see what a healthy Hayward can mean for this team, and I'm frustrated by the Jekyll and Hyde that is Marcus Smart. He had some amazing games and amazing moments in these playoffs, but also some real stinkers. Of the Celtics core, I think he is the guy that Ainge will be / should be considering moving in the right deal. He has value, he has a movable contract, and his fit with the team is a question mark. I think discussions of moving Kemba are a pipe dream at this point.
 

benhogan

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Gobert is only 28, and is already a 3-time All-NBA player. He's been first team All-defense four times, and twice has been defensive player of the year.

I love Jaylen too, but I don't think he is going to match any of those feats in his career.

Not to mention that defense at the 5 is exactly what this team needs. The Celtics would absolutely do Gobert for Brown straight up, but Utah would need more.
Brown's timeline matches up with Tatum. It's all about roster construction for the next 4-5 seasons and going for multiple Championships.

Maybe Gobert would have made the C's a hair better this past season (not even sure of that)?

Most metrics tell me Theis is a plus defensive player/5, he's perfectly fine on a short/cheap deal.

I honestly don't know what JB's ultimate upside. Subjective postseason awards/ AS games means little. Brandon Ingram was an All-Star. JB > BI IMO. Brook Lopez received All Defense votes, which really didn't help vs. Miami

The game has changed and is changing. Paying max money for 7' centers that can't shoot is not something Ainge & Co will do.
 

nighthob

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Gobert is only 28, and is already a 3-time All-NBA player. He's been first team All-defense four times, and twice has been defensive player of the year.

I love Jaylen too, but I don't think he is going to match any of those feats in his career.

Not to mention that defense at the 5 is exactly what this team needs. The Celtics would absolutely do Gobert for Brown straight up, but Utah would need more.
No, the Celtics would absolutely not trade a 23 year old star wing entering his prime for a pending free agent C leaving his.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Outside of Miami, is there a team/roster in the East you'd trade places with? This is still a very good team who blew by a (potentially) dangerous 76ers squad, defeated the defending champs, and then went toe-to-toe with Miami. I'd also pump the breaks on the Kemba is a Sunk Cost talk. No one here knows what's going on with his knee or what he'll look like when the next season starts up in January with a few months off. My eye test said he had his normal explosiveness against Miami. I'm more concerned with GH and keeping that salary slot intact and useful going forward than I am with Kemba.
I wouldn't trade places with Miami next year either. As great as Bam/Herro/Butler looks it has more uncertainty than Celts core. Miami will struggle to resign Dragic while keeping 21 cap space open, and if they don't keep him it's a big loss for them. Butler is going to age if not as quickly as Kemba, quickly. There's a lot of good young players there, but they have fewer assets and less young talent than Celtics.

the only big variable there is the possibility they add GA....and if so, then I'd take their roster over Celts looking forward. But that's true of about six teams and GA will only go to one of them.
 

Jimbodandy

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The stat does not lie like Tomase does however. When Marcus Smart is a volume shooter, it is not good for the team.
Correlation is not causality. Marcus launches in volume when the offense isn't flowing, when actions aren't working, when the better shooters aren't freeing up or aren't being aggressive enough. This "Marcus volume games are losses" implies that Marcus is taking shots away from someone else.

Everyone shot more or less the same percentage yesterday. Why is Marcus's 4-13 worse than JTs 3-10 or Kemba's 3-10?
 

RedOctober3829

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Correlation is not causality. Marcus launches in volume when the offense isn't flowing, when actions aren't working, when the better shooters aren't freeing up or aren't being aggressive enough. This "Marcus volume games are losses" implies that Marcus is taking shots away from someone else.

Everyone shot more or less the same percentage yesterday. Why is Marcus's 4-13 worse than JTs 3-10 or Kemba's 3-10?
Marcus' 4-13 is worse because that's not his primary job to score. He took a total of 22 shots last night in an elimination game which is 5 more than Jaylen Brown in 4 less minutes played. If Tatum/Brown/Walker don't shoot well, I want them to keep shooting because they are the best offensive players on the team. Marcus is a very streaky shooter who when he makes a couple thinks he has a license to shoot the ball whenever he is open. We've grown accustomed to riding the highs and lows with his shooting, but I really think it is an issue that needs to be addressed. I think Tatum and Brown defer to him at times because of Smart's stature within the locker room which is a detriment to the success of the offense. In the 2nd half of Game 5, Smart did a wonderful job of being a playmaker and setting up his teammates with open shots and easy baskets. That's when the offense is as it's best.
 

BaseballJones

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I think this is a good post, and something I've been talking about for a while. I think the examples of MJ, LBJ, and Durant are especially enlightening.
One correction, however, is that Kawhi first won with SA in 2014 when he was very young. Doesn't change the overall point, however.
Oh yeah I forgot about that first Kawhi title. But yeah, it's unrealistic to expect JT/JB to win a title this early in their careers. Their primes are still many years away. Which is incredible to think about.
 

BaseballJones

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No, the Celtics would absolutely not trade a 23 year old star wing entering his prime for a pending free agent C leaving his.
Brown is still like 3 years away from his prime. There's a TON of room for growth before he gets to that point.
 

Jimbodandy

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Marcus' 4-13 is worse because that's not his primary job to score. He took a total of 22 shots last night in an elimination game which is 5 more than Jaylen Brown in 4 less minutes played. If Tatum/Brown/Walker don't shoot well, I want them to keep shooting because they are the best offensive players on the team. Marcus is a very streaky shooter who when he makes a couple thinks he has a license to shoot the ball whenever he is open. We've grown accustomed to riding the highs and lows with his shooting, but I really think it is an issue that needs to be addressed. I think Tatum and Brown defer to him at times because of Smart's stature within the locker room which is a detriment to the success of the offense. In the 2nd half of Game 5, Smart did a wonderful job of being a playmaker and setting up his teammates with open shots and easy baskets. That's when the offense is as it's best.
They do defer to him. That's why their growth is important. If they're demanding those shots and getting to the hole and otherwise doing their job with purpose, then Marcus barely shoots at all. That's the point. The problem isn't Marcus. The problem is that the better scorers sit back when they shouldn't be.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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It's been well covered, but Hayward being stricken with this injury "luck" has probably cost the C's at least one Finals appearance over the past several years. It was obvious last night that 3 games in 5 days was not treating Gordon well. He just wasn't a big part of the game, 1 rebound and 2 assists in 32 minutes of action is shocking compared to his usual presence on the ball.

I think with an assumed Gordon opt-in for next season (we'll know within 3 weeks), you pretty much run it back with an eye towards using Hayward as an expiring contract in a transaction if things really go sideways. As opined above, I think the draft combined with further development of RWill and Romeo is where you need to make improvements. I think Kemba really IS important to team morale, although not the go to guy I was hoping for. In hindsight, a faulty premise given his height and history of small players playing a huge role deep in the playoffs (the list of short stars bringing their team to the finals is one, Allen Iverson).

Getting to the Jays themselves, I think the early experience and "failures" deep into the playoffs were a curse as well as a blessing. I get the sense these guys are tentative in the elimination games due to the horrific shooting performances they made 2 and 3 years ago in these situations. See that abominable box score from the 87-79 game 7 against the Cavs 2 years back if you dare. The next leap they need to make next postseason is to just say those shitty performances were from when I was 20/21 years old and it is not who I am now, and get a little confidence and swagger in the toughest games.
 
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