What's in a (retired) number?

[dynomite]

Inspired by the Paul O'Neill number retirement thread in the Yankee Forum, in the interests of continuing to fill the (hopefully dwindling...) time before we have baseball again, moving the debate about the Red Sox retiring numbers here to see if folks have strong opinions.

The question presented: Should the Red Sox retire more jersey numbers? Follow up question: If so, whose numbers should be retired?

As a reminder, for years the criteria (apparently) were: "The player must be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, they must have played for the Boston Red Sox for 10 years, and they must have finished their career in Boston." The retired with the Red Sox criteria was the first to go (first Fisk, now Pesky, Boggs and Pedro). Johnny Pesky's number retirement in 2008 seems to have changed the "Baseball Hall of Fame" criteria as well. And Pedro was only with the Red Sox, somehow, for 7 of the most glorious years in the history of professional sports. At the moment, here are the number retirements:

Bobby Doerr (1)
Joe Cronin (4)
Johnny Pesky (6)
Carl Yastrzemski (8)
Ted Williams (9)
Jim Rice (14)
Wade Boggs (26)
Carlton Fisk (27)
David Ortiz (34)
Jackie Robinson (42)
Pedro Martinez (45)

For context, here are a few initial posts:

I've posted this before, but it brings up a bit of a conundrum for me. I think some of the recent Yankee number retirements are a little silly... but I also think the Red Sox are too stingy about number retirements by limiting it to induction into the Hall of Fame. I know drawing bright lines is important, and I think the Yankees have cheapened number their number retirements by being overly inclusive, but I also think the whole "number retirement" genre does best when teams honor the players who were most important to their team and their fans, not purely the best players to ever wear the uniform.

Pedroia and Varitek are actually the perfect example of a small number of modern players who will never make the Hall of Fame, but whose Red Sox careers to me are worth memorializing through number retirements, especially because they won't get that same acknowledgement in Cooperstown. I'd also add Dewey Evans and there are other debatable ones (Jerry Remy, Tony C, etc.).

Take Varitek: 1,500 games in a Red Sox uniform, team captain, 2 World Series rings, entire ML career with the Red Sox, punched ARod. He'll never be the best catcher in Red Sox history because of Fisk, but I think he's worthy of a permanent place of honor within Fenway.

Again, I recognize it's a slippery slope, but the Yankees have retired I believe 21 numbers while the Red Sox have only retired 10 by my count (not counting Jackie Robinson). I don't mind somewhat formalizing a Hall of Very Good.

The Red Sox have a team Hall of Fame, which is a fine place to recognize players whose status doesn't reach the iconic nature of those whose numbers are retired. Few on this site are bigger Ted boosters than I am, and I still think he falls short of having the number up there. I'm on the fence about Pedroia, though; I could see that one eventually.

I suggest if you want to continue this sidetrack, let's move it to its own thread on the Red Sox mainboard

Maybe the best analogy isn't Trot, or Dewey, or Youk... but is Remy.

Sure Remy wasn't quite the player O'Neill was, but his Red Sox career was certainly passable with some All-Star appearances (edit: actually just one, in his first year in Boston)... and Remy's contributions post-Sox certainly exceed O'Neill's post-MFY.

I hated O'Neill as a player -- his incessant whining about every called strike was a constant lesson for my Yankee-fan young son. ["If you want to be like a Yankee, be like Bernie."] ANd I think retiring his number is ridiculous. But if the Sox retired Remy's #2 (allowing Xander to retain it), I'd kinda be okay with it. [Better solution is Red Sox Hall of Fame, name on the broadcast booth, maybe a statue, and leave #2 for Bogaerts.]

So?

According to B-Ref franchise encyclopedia, here are the Red Sox franchise career WAR leaders (an imperfect stat, and I believe only counts WAR accumulated while in a Red Sox uniform):

1. Ted Williams (Career Red Sox WAR: 122.1)
2. Carl Yastrzemski (96.4)
3. Roger Clemens (81.0)
4. Wade Boggs (71.9)
5. Cy Young (66.7)
6. Dewey Evans (66.5)
7. Tris Speaker (55.7)
8. Pedro Martinez (53.9)
9. David Ortiz (52.7)
10. Dustin Pedroia (52.1)
11. Bobby Doerr (51.6)
12. Jim Rice (47.7)

I nominate four players who merit conversation:

1) Dwight Evans: 1972-1990. Red Sox Stats (19 years): 8,726 at bats, 379 home runs, 127 OPS+, 8 Gold Gloves, 2nd only to Yaz in games played for the Red Sox, helped the Sox make two World Series.

2) Dustin Pedroia: 2006-2019: Red Sox Stats (14 years): 6,031 at bats, .805 career OPS, 113 OPS+, Rookie of the Year, an MVP, 4x Gold Glove, 2 World Series (technically 3 but he had 13 plate appearances in 2018).

3) Jason Varitek: 1997-2011: Red Sox Stats (15 years, 33.7 WAR): Discussed above.

4) Jerry Remy: 1978-1984 as player, 1988-2021 as broadcaster: Red Sox Stats (7 years, 9.5 WAR): Obviously this one wouldn't be because of his on field achievements, would be the modern Johnny Pesky type number retirement.

So. Thoughts? Stay off your lawn, keep number retirements few? Who cares man, retire whoever you want? Any opportunity to continue to make fun of the Yankees and their blossoming championship drought is a good one? Have away.

 

[snowmanny]

My feeling is I would not have retired Pesky’s and the other retired numbers seem right. Clemens probably should be in the HOF and probably should be retired (ed- but I wouldn’t argue Clemens too vociferously because I appreciate the counter-arguments).

 

[Awesome Fossum]

Just my opinion, but I think a retired number should be the highest honor a club can bestow on a player, and so the conversation needs to start with "is this player wearing our cap in the Baseball HOF?"

You can always add another player to the team Hall of Fame or Ring of Honor or whatever. There are only so many uniform numbers. The Red Sox are 121 years old, and I think you should be making decisions that will hold up in year 2143 and beyond.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I find the retired number thing to be a bit over-done. I like that, by and large, the threshold for the Red Sox to put a number up has been a player making the Baseball Hall of Fame. Granted, they put 34 up there well before Ortiz was elected, but his election reduces the non-HOFers back to just Pesky. And I'm okay with Pesky because of his contributions to the organization beyond just his playing days. I think it's possible for others go achieve the same honor, but not for a long time down the road obviously.

Remy does deserve an honor, but I don't think it needs to be his uniform number since his biggest contribution to the organization wasn't in uniform, it was behind a microphone. Retiring a microphone under the NESN booth, a la Johnny Most or Vin Scully, seems more appropriate.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Bobby Doerr (1)
Joe Cronin (4)
Johnny Pesky (6)
Carl Yastrzemski (8)
Ted Williams (9)
Jim Rice (14)
Wade Boggs (26)
Carlton Fisk (27)
David Ortiz (34)
Jackie Robinson (42)
Pedro Martinez (45)

After reading your post I find I have fewer opinions about this than I thought I would and so only offer a small point.

I actually wonder if I'm alone in this. There are some numbers that whenever I see them out in the wild, I actually think of players. The ones on this list are 6, 8, 9, 14, 34, 42 and 45. I cannot see those numbers without thinking of the player. If I am reading something at work and come across the fact that there are 34 of something, a monkey part of my brain thinks "David Ortiz." 12 is the same for Brady.

That is not really a reason to give someone a retired number, but I actually think it's indicative of the extent to which these players are or are not burned into our psyche. I think Doerr and Cronin are maybe just because I'm the wrong generation, but I'm not sure. Also, the number 1 is kind of a ubiquitous number.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this for the last 10 minutes or so and I find it interesting that I do not have the same associations with 26 or 37. I mean, sure, if I see the number 26 a few times I might eventually recall that it's Boggs' number, but it's not visceral like 34. Or 42.

Anyway, using that yardstick, of the four players you propose, only one of them meets that criteria for me: 24. I see 24 I think Dewey. Interestingly, I couldn't even remember Tek or Remy's number right away. That said, Remy deserves some sort of honor. He's in the Pesky ballpark.

 

[snowmanny]

Red Sox #6 indelibly means someone else to me, so there’s that.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Anyway, I've been thinking about this for the last 10 minutes or so and I find it interesting that I do not have the same associations with 26 or 37. I mean, sure, if I see the number 26 a few times I might eventually recall that it's Boggs' number, but it's not visceral like 34. Or 42.

I wonder if part of that is predicated on the team issuing #26 and #27 to a number of players after Boggs and Fisk? No one wore #8 after Yaz, and no one wore #14 after Rice, no one wore #45 after Pedro, etc.

Though I guess that doesn't fit with #24 and Dewey. But for a younger generation of Sox fans, #24 = Manny.

 

[GlucoDoc]

I agree with the statement about the immediate association of the number with the person, and I think that number retirement is something that should stand above even the hall of fame. I think that a retired number connotes someone who has a special standing embodying the "Spirit of the Red Sox" that goes beyond excellence on the field. You can probably make that argument for those who are currently retired. Remy, as noted, very much could be included but for non-on-field accomplishments. I would favor his inclusion, but could make the argument that he should get a designation that says "Remy" rather than his number. (What if some day we feel that way about an executive who never played and had a number.) But the bar for number retirement or "hallowing of the name" should be the highest of all for an iconic person whose accomplishments include but also transcend what they do on the field.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Jerry Remy? Should Joe Castiglione have his number retired too?

 

[Ale Xander]

I nominate Manny Ramirez

Only 7 2/3 years a Red Sox, but was an All-Star every year (8)
Top-10 MVP in the first 5 years, straight
39.6 oWAR in those 7+ years
WS MVP in the year they broke the curse
Produced in the clutch
2 WS titles
OPS of .999 as a Red Sox (OPS+ 155)
2324 total bases as a Red Sox
Led the league 2 straight years in fewest AB's per HR
Was 1st or 2nd in LF assists 3 of those 7 full years
Entertaining as heck

In truth they should retire Dewey and Manny together.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I nominate Manny Ramirez

Only 7 2/3 years a Red Sox, but was an All-Star every year (8)
Top-10 MVP in the first 5 years, straight
39.6 oWAR in those 7+ years
WS MVP in the year they broke the curse
2 WS titles
OPS of .999 as a Red Sox (OPS+ 155)
2324 total bases as a Red Sox
Led the league 2 straight years in fewest AB's per HR
Was 1st or 2nd in LF assists 3 of those 7 full years
Entertaining as heck

In truth they should retire Dewey and Manny together.

Punched a traveling secretary.
Agitated to be traded on multiple occasions (and finally getting his way).

Can't see the team honoring him like that without some act(s) of atonement.

 

[Ale Xander]

Punched a traveling secretary.
Agitated to be traded on multiple occasions (and finally getting his way).

Can't see the team honoring him like that without some act(s) of atonement.

Boggs signed with the Yankees as a FA and wanted to enter the Hall as a Ray, and he's in.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Boggs signed with the Yankees as a FA and wanted to enter the Hall as a Ray, and he's in.

He waited 10 years after his HOF induction (no one else had to wait that long once they started retiring numbers) and did a bit of begging before they put his number up. I'd be good with Manny facing a similar penance should he ever get into the Hall. Of course, that would require him to actually care whether or not the Sox retire his number, which I'm betting he doesn't.

 

[Ale Xander]

He waited 10 years after his HOF induction (no one else had to wait that long once they started retiring numbers) and did a bit of begging before they put his number up. I'd be good with Manny facing a similar penance should he ever get into the Hall. Of course, that would require him to actually care whether or not the Sox retire his number, which I'm betting he doesn't.

Not begging is better than begging, for me.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Not begging is better than begging, for me.

My only point is Manny's going to have to kiss a little ass if the Sox are going to honor him for anything.

 

[nolasoxfan]

Just my opinion, but I think a retired number should be the highest honor a club can bestow on a player, and so the conversation needs to start with "is this player wearing our cap in the Baseball HOF?"

FWIW, it's my opinion too. Being seen as "stingy" with number retirements is simply an outcome of that.

 

[YTF]

I find the retired number thing to be a bit over-done. I like that, by and large, the threshold for the Red Sox to put a number up has been a player making the Baseball Hall of Fame. Granted, they put 34 up there well before Ortiz was elected, but his election reduces the non-HOFers back to just Pesky. And I'm okay with Pesky because of his contributions to the organization beyond just his playing days. I think it's possible for others go achieve the same honor, but not for a long time down the road obviously.

Remy does deserve an honor, but I don't think it needs to be his uniform number since his biggest contribution to the organization wasn't in uniform, it was behind a microphone. Retiring a microphone under the NESN booth, a la Johnny Most or Vin Scully, seems more appropriate.

I'm in 100% agreement with this post. Something similar to the photo below would be a perfect way to honor The Remdawg.

 

[Murderer's Crow]

How many Red Sox numbers aren't retired but the team doesn't want new players wearing?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

How many Red Sox numbers aren't retired but the team doesn't want new players wearing?

No one's worn 21 since Clemens. No one's worn 33 since Varitek. No one's worn 49 since Wakefield. 15 and 50 haven't been worn since 2019, though I think only one of those is a candidate for retirement.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Comparing the Sox history of retiring numbers to the Yankees is like comparing the Knicks retired numbers to the Celtics. The Yankees SHOULD have more than the Sox and the Celtics SHOULD have more than the Knicks.

but neither should be by as wide a margin as they are.

 

[Hyde Park Factor]

I don't think the Sox need to retire more numbers, but I would like to see something along the lines of what the Tigers do for guys who never wore a number: Speaker, Wood, Young and Ruth for starters

 

[brs3]

My only point is Manny's going to have to kiss a little ass if the Sox are going to honor him for anything.

Is there anything that suggests the Red Sox ownership still has issues with Manny? They've publicly referenced him in positive ways since he left.

Personally I'd rather honor players in different ways, where uniform numbers aren't retired, but then again 24 would be perfect to retire for both Manny & Evans.

Maybe etch their names on the wall. "HIGH FLY BALL... OFF MANNY RAMIREZ"

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Is there anything that suggests the Red Sox ownership still has issues with Manny? They've publicly referenced him in positive ways since he left.

Personally I'd rather honor players in different ways, where uniform numbers aren't retired, but then again 24 would be perfect to retire for both Manny & Evans.

I don't think there's anything to suggest there are problems between Manny and ownership. I just don't see any signs that there's much of a relationship at all between the two. Like they'd invite him back to a 2004 or 2007 reunion sort of thing like anyone else from those teams (incidently, has he been back for such a thing?). But for an individual honor like retiring his number, I suspect the bar is higher and they might ask for something more out of him before it happens. Even if it's an appearance or two in the Legends suite.

Maybe etch their names on the wall. "HIGH FLY BALL... OFF MANNY RAMIREZ"

I got it. Name the door into the Green Monster after him.

 

[Max Power]

I don't think there's anything to suggest there are problems between Manny and ownership. I just don't see any signs that there's much of a relationship at all between the two. Like they'd invite him back to a 2004 or 2007 reunion sort of thing like anyone else from those teams (incidently, has he been back for such a thing?).

He's been back for a few of them already. I think he was at Pedro's number retirement ceremony, too. He certainly seems welcome to be around the team, but it's not going beyond that.

 

[8slim]

I've grown to become a bigger fan of the 'ring of honor' approach than retiring numbers. I like when a number becomes more of a tradition than a relic. But since the Sox are already well down the retiring numbers path, I prefer to keep the level of achievement it requires to be pretty darn lofty. I'd do it for Clemens (I'd also put him in the HoF, so maybe I'm outside board opinion on that one). I'd probably do it for Dewey too, because he should be a HOFer. Maybe Pedroia someday, but that's borderline for as much as I love the guy.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

Dewey .
Pedro and Pedroia.
Manny, Varitek are borderline for different reasons already discussed.

 

[YTF]

Dewey .
Pedro and Pedroia.
Manny, Varitek are borderline for different reasons already discussed.

 

[Bosoxian]

Giving Manny #24 sort of messes up Dewey’s number retirement. It’s not like they can retire 24 for Manny before doing the same for Dewey. Hopefully Dewey makes it into the HOF and resolves the issue.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

View attachment 49650

Well shit! Guess someone read my post! Thanks

 

[worm0082]

I always thought it be a nice idea to retire 2 for Remy but instead of putting it in right field , hang it under the window he sat at in the press box.

I believe Variteks 33 and Wakefield 49 need to go up. 24 should but I’m not sure how without it being a Dickey/Berra situation. For Evans and Manny.

And of course there is Clemens 21. I think eventually that goes up. I would also give strong consideration to 47 for Francona once he retires. I wouldn’t be against 25 for Tony C either.

 

[worm0082]

Edit: accidental double post

 

[YTF]

I always thought it be a nice idea to retire 2 for Remy but instead of putting it in right field , hang it under the window he sat at in the press box.

I believe Variteks 33 and Wakefield 49 need to go up. 24 should but I’m not sure how without it being a Dickey/Berra situation. For Evans and Manny.

And of course there is Clemens 21. I think eventually that goes up. I would also give strong consideration to 47 for Francona once he retires. I wouldn’t be against 25 for Tony C either.

I wouldn't retire the #2. I think the microphone is sufficient, but if they wanted to work a small 2 into the lower section of the mic (the blue area in the pic below) as a nod to Remy's playing days I would be cool with that.

 

[leithbones]

"RemDawg" = "Loscy"

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

"RemDawg" = "Loscy"

More like the microphone retired for Johnny Most, imho.

 

[sheamonu]

"RemDawg" = "Loscy"

Yes - this is a very good idea. Under the announcers ' window. I can recite all the players whose numbers are retired - but there are surprisingly few players who I immediately think of the number in Boston sports lore (like, I know Fisk is 27 but, unlike some I don't immediately go "27!" when someone mentions his name). For me it's 4, 8, 12, 33, 77. Maybe 00 for the novelty.

 

[worm0082]

A little off topic but looking through the database of Sox all time numbers, I cant believe they let other players wear Williams 9 while he was off in ww2. & 7 other players wore 3 for the Yankees after Ruth.

I’d also consider retiring DiMaggio’s 7. He Lost 3 prime years early on in ww2 along with Pesky. Might have been HOF.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I’m fine with retiring DiMaggio’s #, but who is it for? He last played nearly 70 years ago. There’s very few people alive who saw him play; I guess I’m not sure the point of such a move.

 

[Boston Brawler]

Remy does deserve an honor, but I don't think it needs to be his uniform number since his biggest contribution to the organization wasn't in uniform, it was behind a microphone. Retiring a microphone under the NESN booth, a la Johnny Most or Vin Scully, seems more appropriate.

This is perfect, and exactly what they should do.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Dom DiMaggio? Jason Varitek? Tim Wakefield?

Pass on all three--maybe Varitek, but it's borderline. Why DiMaggio? He was a really good player with a recognizable last name, but I mean like Petagine said, it's been 70 years and I can think of about 20 players I'd rather see get their numbers retired. IDK, retiring numbers is kinda dumb. Does Joe Cronin need to have his number retired? Like the numbers that should be retired (Williams, Yaz, Pedro) don't really need to be retired because you don't need to be reminded of those players' greatness. And if you need to be reminded of how great/important a player is; maybe their impact wasn't that big to begin with.

 

[pedro1918]

If it were up to me the only numbers on the right field facade would be 8, 9 and 34. It’s a beyond Hall of Fame honor. I think the Yankees and Celtics are ridiculous.

I waffle on 6, as I think it’s nice to honor Pesky, but I think of him of a mascot more than an immortal. And the fact that I think of Rico Petrocelli before I think of Pesky makes me wonder what the heck I’m thinking anyway.

For the record, I love Pedro. He is the best pitcher I have ever seen. He played for too many teams. I would favor retiring 45 from all of MLB before just one of his teams did it. But I think that would be silly.

 

[YTF]

A little off topic but looking through the database of Sox all time numbers, I cant believe they let other players wear Williams 9 while he was off in ww2. & 7 other players wore 3 for the Yankees after Ruth.

I’d also consider retiring DiMaggio’s 7. He Lost 3 prime years early on in ww2 along with Pesky. Might have been HOF.

Might be a tall order given the position he played. A guy named Max Carey might be his closest comp, but he played in an earlier era.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Dom DiMaggio? Jason Varitek? Tim Wakefield?

Pass on all three--maybe Varitek, but it's borderline. Why DiMaggio? He was a really good player with a recognizable last name, but I mean like Petagine said, it's been 70 years and I can think of about 20 players I'd rather see get their numbers retired. IDK, retiring numbers is kinda dumb. Does Joe Cronin need to have his number retired? Like the numbers that should be retired (Williams, Yaz, Pedro) don't really need to be retired because you don't need to be reminded of those players' greatness. And if you need to be reminded of how great/important a player is; maybe their impact wasn't that big to begin with.

Cronin was a pretty important figure in the early Yawkey years, spending half his Hall of Fame career playing SS (5x All Star in Boston) and managing the team from the basement to, eventually, a pennant before moving to the front office then the league office. I understand why he was one of (the Yawkey) ownership's first choices when they decided to start retiring numbers. That said, if #4 wasn't already on the facade, I can't imagine it would be a candidate for consideration now. Unless it had been worn by someone else noteworthy in the meantime.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Cronin was a pretty important figure in the early Yawkey years, spending half his Hall of Fame career playing SS (5x All Star in Boston) and managing the team from the basement to, eventually, a pennant before moving to the front office then the league office. I understand why he was one of (the Yawkey) ownership's first choices when they decided to start retiring numbers. That said, if #4 wasn't already on the facade, I can't imagine it would be a candidate for consideration now. Unless it had been worn by someone else noteworthy in the meantime.

Yeah. I get all that, but Cronin made most of his HoF years in Washington. He was really good with the Sox, but he had most of his star years with the Senators. And being a manager and GM for the Sox probably earned him some points, but he's not Ted Williams, his not Yaz, he's not Ortiz.

Am I raging against Cronin's retired number? Not really, but he's not an all-timer either. And that's who I think should be honored with retired numbers, a small subset of players who are truly great. And while Pedro thinks of Rico as number six, I first think of Tony Peña. But again, I get why they did that. I just think that in a perfect world, there should be a step between player who's in the team HoF and a player who has his number retired. Save the latter for the true superstars and have a ring of honor for the Peskys, Cronins, Boggses of the world. And quite honestly, I don't think it's crazy for numbers to be unretired too.

 

[Leather]

If it were up to me the only numbers on the right field facade would be 8, 9 and 34. It’s a beyond Hall of Fame honor. I think the Yankees and Celtics are ridiculous.

I waffle on 6, as I think it’s nice to honor Pesky, but I think of him of a mascot more than an immortal. And the fact that I think of Rico Petrocelli before I think of Pesky makes me wonder what the heck I’m thinking anyway.

For the record, I love Pedro. He is the best pitcher I have ever seen. He played for too many teams. I would favor retiring 45 from all of MLB before just one of his teams did it. But I think that would be silly.

This is kind of where I'm at.

I adore Pedro, he's my favorite player ever. Do I think he should have his number retired? No. I think a Ring of Honor/Monument Park thing is a great idea, and where people like Pedro, Boggs, Pedroia, et al. belong.

I think the retiring of a number should be reserved for era-defining, super-hero-in-a-Sox-uniform, types (and I know people will quibble with the "era defining" bit, but hear me out); Williams, Yaz, Ortiz. People who the organization is proud to have as its figurehead and leader for a generation and who mean more to the fabric of the fans than simply "Man, you should have seen THAT guy!". Yes, they come around rarely, that's the point. If Clemens hadn't been an asshole and also had stuck around for another 5 years, he'd probably deserve to be up there as well.

But Boggs, Pedro, Rice...excellent players. Red Sox all time greats. But I just don't think they really have the same close association with the fortunes and story of the Boston Red Sox, with the fortunes and story of baseball, as those three above.