Who's on Third? I don't know

MikeM

Member
SoSH Member
May 27, 2010
3,051
Florida
Then again, it didn't seem as though it would have taken much to get Pomeranz
Apples and oranges comparison really.

Again, I'll be fairly surprised to see Frazier moved in a trade where picking up the rest of his contract doesn't end up being the selling point that mostly carries that deal. Beyond that it's random flyer at best, and certainly not a league top prospect type.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
12,085
Then again, it didn't seem as though it would have taken much to get Pomeranz
It was one of the strongest selling markets we've actually seen. So much so, that post deadline Dave was praised because he GOT AHEAD of the market.

It's also the first time in forever that the Yankees sold and they sold into that market, it's better to be lucky than good sometimes.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
I just saw something on the web, this morning or perhaps yesterday...I can't recall where, that quoted an unnamed scout as saying Devers would end up being moved to first because he couldn't handle third well enough. Did anyone else see that?
I saw it on twitter. Something from an anonymous GM or talent guy from another team saying his D wouldn't keep him at 3rd. I'll try and find/post it when I'm in front of my desk.
 

charlieoscar

Member
Sep 28, 2014
1,339
I saw it on twitter....
I don't use twitter so it was in some column I read. The writer may have cited the tweet without giving the source. I was just curious whether there have been other evaluators reaching the same conclusion as I have not seen Devers play.
 

Curt S Loew

SoSH Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
6,515
Shantytown
I don't use twitter so it was in some column I read. The writer may have cited the tweet without giving the source. I was just curious whether there have been other evaluators reaching the same conclusion as I have not seen Devers play.
Due to his size and the likelihood he bulks up more, many scouts have suggested the likely move to 1B or LF for him. That would be normal with a player of his make up.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
That was from a Buster Olney article.
Yea, I saw a Buster tweet but didn't see the article. Here it is

But having said that, looking at twitter, there are a few writers that see him regularly at Portland and think his D looks good. So I guess we'll see.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Great article.
That is a nice article. I'm all for keeping him down and getting the D right so he can stay at third through the majority of his career. As much as I thought he would be moving to AAA and Chavis to AA, I think staying with that coach as long as possible provides a better overall career move. It's about the kid at this point, not the hole we have at third.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,936
Agreed, and the in-house options of AAAA players at 3B are not a death knell, not a reason to make a stupid trade. The team's problems are not that Josh Rutledge and Deven Marrero can't hit, it's that the guys who really are supposed to hit are sputtering and the starting pitching is not living up to expectations.
 

PaulinMyrBch

Don't touch his dog food
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
8,316
MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
I'm actually OK with Marrero over there. I like the defense he brings and if the rest of the lineup does what we expect, we can afford to keep him in the lineup.
 

oumbi

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 15, 2006
4,167
Here is part of Dever's write up on Soxprospects (underlining is mine):

http://soxprospects.com/players/devers-rafael.htm

Arm: Solid-average arm strength that can play at third base. Needs to improve footwork, which impacted his accuracy.

Field: Doesn’t look pretty, but can make the plays at third base. Limited range and on the stiff and rigid side when fielding ground balls. Will be given every chance to stick at third, but could move across the diamond to first base eventually.

Run: Below-average speed at present. Not a part of his game.

Career Notes: Suffered a stress fracture in his right ankle while sliding during the 2014 fall instructional league, but was expected to have a normal offseason and be ready for spring training. Was one of the top prospects in the 2013 international free agent class.

Summation: All-Star potential regardless of position due to his value at the plate. Potential to be a plus hitter for average with plus-to-better power. One of the most exciting young players in the system in years. Mature approach for his age, has shown the ability to handle aggressive assignments. Will stick at third base for the foreseeable future, but if his bat develops as projected, it would profile at first base.
 

AB in DC

OG Football Writing
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2002
13,633
Springfield, VA
But overall, I agree with AB in DC. Station to station baserunners abound in baseball, even as pinch hitters. I don't think that's necessarily a deal breaker for Sandoval. I mean, can he really be that much worse on the bases than David Ortiz, particularly after he started having trouble with his achilles?
AB in DC was wrong. That's now two games in a row where Sandoval pinch hit and, after reaching base, was immediately replaced by Marrero as PR. I guess Sean McAdam knew what he was talking about.
 

LeftyTG

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
1,345
Austin
Here is part of Dever's write up on Soxprospects (underlining is mine):

http://soxprospects.com/players/devers-rafael.htm

Arm: Solid-average arm strength that can play at third base. Needs to improve footwork, which impacted his accuracy.

Field: Doesn’t look pretty, but can make the plays at third base. Limited range and on the stiff and rigid side when fielding ground balls. Will be given every chance to stick at third, but could move across the diamond to first base eventually.

Run: Below-average speed at present. Not a part of his game.

Career Notes: Suffered a stress fracture in his right ankle while sliding during the 2014 fall instructional league, but was expected to have a normal offseason and be ready for spring training. Was one of the top prospects in the 2013 international free agent class.

Summation: All-Star potential regardless of position due to his value at the plate. Potential to be a plus hitter for average with plus-to-better power. One of the most exciting young players in the system in years. Mature approach for his age, has shown the ability to handle aggressive assignments. Will stick at third base for the foreseeable future, but if his bat develops as projected, it would profile at first base.
I think that write up is a bit out of date. If you look at the "scouting scratch" article from 4/27/17, it has a more up to date take on Devers' defense:

A lot of the questions about Devers center around his defense, but these concerns have evolved not from actual concerns about his ability to field but rather questions when he signed about whether he would grow out of third base, necessitating a move to first. If you see him play the field, it’s clear that there is no reason to discuss a move off third base at this point. Perhaps, he could eventually become too big, similar to what happened to Miguel Cabrera, but his skills should allow him to stick at third for the foreseeable future. Devers is a below-average runner already and not the most athletic player, but he shows off surprising range and agility moving both laterally and charging the ball.
Over the four games scouted, Devers made one error charging a ball that he stabbed at to the side, rather than fielding out in front, but he also made several very good plays. He has soft hands and his footwork is surprisingly good. He made one very nice play in the season opener ranging to his left to cut off a ball in the hole between third and short, and he made two others that same day charging slow rollers, fielding them with his glove and making smooth transfers to his throwing hand and then strong, accurate throws to first base. Devers has plenty of arm for third with it grading as plus currently. Devers is unlikely to be a Gold Glove candidate, but he also won’t be a butcher and should develop into at least an average third baseman, an outcome the Red Sox will happily accept given his offensive potential.
http://news.soxprospects.com/2017/04/scouting-scratch-rafael-devers.html
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,124
Santa Monica
Super SSS and all, but Sandoval made three really nice plays last night
Sell high then. Subsidize the rest of his contract, package him with a #20-30 prospect and fly him to San Fran. Maybe they can rejuvenate him.

With nothing else to root for this season, Pac Bell can nostalgically go back to wearing their Panda hats/mittens this summer.

We'll gladly take half a season of Eduardo Nunez in exchange.
 
Last edited:

Cumberland Blues

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2001
5,193
In another SSS, I saw Devers about a month ago and he had a bunch of chances at 3B in the game I saw. I thought he looked mostly fine - even seemed quick to me going to his backhand side. He did struggle with the charge/bare-hand play on two bunts - he just plain missed one of 'em, and made an off-line throw on the other. So from what I saw - that's the piece that needs the most work.

And the swing was as pretty as advertised - except in one AB against a loogy type who made him look foolish waving at junk away.

All of that I guess is a long way of saying he still has work to do - and I'm in agreement with the folks who say keep him where he is until he's finished that work.
 

TheCone

New Member
Apr 12, 2009
23
Sell high then. Subsidize the rest of his contract, package him with a #20-30 prospect and fly him to San Fran. Maybe they can rejuvenate him.

With nothing else to root for this season, Pac Bell can nostalgically go back to wearing their Panda hats/mittens this summer.

We'll gladly take half a season of Eduardo Nunez in exchange.

Didnt he basically shoot his way out of town when he left? I think we're going to give him until the all star break....this year, unfortunately we dont have anyone else, but next year...he will be in the way so yeah, if someone will take him Id move him./
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
58,909
San Andreas Fault
Didnt he basically shoot his way out of town when he left? I think we're going to give him until the all star break....this year, unfortunately we dont have anyone else, but next year...he will be in the way so yeah, if someone will take him Id move him./
Yes, from my post up thread.

Ha! That would be cool but I think he shot his way out of town, saying something like he respected only Bochy and Posey on the Giants (not even Pence, Crawford or Bumgarner? Belt?). So, fat chance (pun intended).
 

johnnywayback

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 8, 2004
1,421
No one is going to trade for Pablo Sandoval, even if the Red Sox subsidize his contract. In part, that's because he's a lousy fit on any roster unless he's the starting 3B -- he isn't a good enough defender to be the defensive replacement for a bat-first starter and he can't play any other position. This is also why he's a lousy fit on the Red Sox; they should either start him or eat the contract and replace him with someone who can offer more to the roster.

In perhaps related news, my off-season binky Trevor Plouffe is about to be DFA'd. He's been terrible this year (214/276/357 and six errors in 58 games), but, hey, slightly better than Peralta if we're at the point where we're ready to eat Sandoval's contract.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
It's a lovely dream world people live in who think that Sandoval is tradeable. The likely end of the road for Sandoval in Boston is the same one that Carl Crawford eventually met in LA. A DFA and a release.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,124
Santa Monica
It's a lovely dream world people live in who think that Sandoval is tradeable. The likely end of the road for Sandoval in Boston is the same one that Carl Crawford eventually met in LA. A DFA and a release.
so if a fully subsidized Panda has zero value to the rest of MLB, why aren't you screaming for him to be DFA'd right now?

or maybe thats exactly what you are saying?
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
2,493
Scituate, MA
I think we're nearing the point where DFAing Pablo actually results with him getting paid $19 mil a year to play in Pawtucket off the 40 man. He hasn't been worth league minimum in 2 1/2 years.
 

ishmael

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 3, 2006
640
I think we're nearing the point where DFAing Pablo actually results with him getting paid $19 mil a year to play in Pawtucket off the 40 man. He hasn't been worth league minimum in 2 1/2 years.
The Allen Craig move only worked b/c he had <5 years of service time. Panda would just refuse the DFA and make the Sox keep him on the roster or release+pay him.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,676
Maine
so if a fully subsidized Panda has zero value to the rest of MLB, why aren't you screaming for him to be DFA'd right now?

or maybe thats exactly what you are saying?
Because I don't think they need to get rid of him right now. My point was that IF they want to be rid of him, DFA is likely going to be their only option. No one is giving up anything to bring in a free Panda, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have use to the team that's already committed to paying him. They still need someone to play 3B for the time being, and I'm no more enamored with the Rutledge/Marrero platoon than sending Panda out there.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2006
11,624
The Coney Island of my mind
Not that it's the most difficult argument to make, but Dave Cameron makes an air-tight case to release the Panda now. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/its-time-to-pull-the-plug-on-pablo-sandoval/
Interesting piece, particularly in pointing out that the increased use of the shift is hastening his demise.

Unlikely that any of this has been lost on the FO. Probably just waiting to decide Devers is ready, and hoping to stumble across a naive/desperate trade partner in the interim.
 

simplicio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 11, 2012
4,763
Interesting piece, particularly in pointing out that the increased use of the shift is hastening his demise.

Unlikely that any of this has been lost on the FO. Probably just waiting to decide Devers is ready, and hoping to stumble across a naive/desperate trade partner in the interim.
Where, in the indie league?
 

gedman211

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 6, 2016
2,844
on the bench again vs a righty. I think that's pretty much the end. I've built my raft and am sailing on from Pablo Island. Pretty lonely out here, but the BBQ was fantastic!
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I was looking at Rafael Devers career numbers do date and noticed something alarming.

vs R: 1080 PA, .307/.356/.508, 34 HR 6.9% BB rate, 15.4% K rate, .201 ISO.
vs L: 430 PA, .258/.323/.345, 2 HR 9.3% BB rate, 18.1% k rate, .093 ISO.

This year, he's at .297/.409/.323 vs L with 0 HRs. Last year, all 11 HRs were off RHP. All 7 HRs this year are vs RHP. The last HR Rafael Devers hit against a left handed pitcher was 8/14/2015. That was over 230+ PA ago. We may want to pump the brakes before calling him up. Or at least find a platoon partner.
Posted part of this in the Devers thread but it belongs here as well.

Devers is slashing .373/.413/.780 with a .405 BAbip over his last 15 games and 63 PA. He has 7 doubles, 1 triple and 5 HRs in that period to go with 4bb/12k. In his last 180 PA extended across 43 games, he is hitting .319/.389/.613, .342 BAbip. 12 doubles, 1 triple, 12 HRs. 19bb/33k.

That in game power though. It's arrived. Most encouraging sign this year? He's now hitting .290/.371/.435 vs lefties in 70 PA. He has 2 HRs off them in the last 4 games, having gone since August 2015 and 230+ PA without hitting one of southpaws.

vs LHP
2014 72 PA .200/.333/.267
2015 145 PA .252/.297/.356
2016 169 PA .278/.355/.371
2017 70 PA .290/.371/.435

That trend can't really get much more encouraging but it's also probably what you should expect to see from a 20 year old player. Versus R this year in 174 PA, he is at .313/.362/.619. And fwiw (probably nothing), he's hit much better on the road than at home this year. 112 PA at Home .275/.339/.461 with 3 HRs. 132 PA on the road, .333/.386/.658 with 10 HRs. Portland's stadium does have the Monster replica though.
 

grimshaw

Member
SoSH Member
May 16, 2007
4,220
Portland
That trend can't really get much more encouraging but it's also probably what you should expect to see from a 20 year old player. Versus R this year in 174 PA, he is at .313/.362/.619. And fwiw (probably nothing), he's hit much better on the road than at home this year. 112 PA at Home .275/.339/.461 with 3 HRs. 132 PA on the road, .333/.386/.658 with 10 HRs. Portland's stadium does have the Monster replica though.
Absolute crappy weather for 80% of the season too. I live in Portland and this is basically the first week to 10 days it has been 65+ for a stretch.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Absolute crappy weather for 80% of the season too. I live in Portland and this is basically the first week to 10 days it has been 65+ for a stretch.
Yeah, I live 30 minutes north of you. It's definitely been some crappy weather. Hadlock is one of the more hitter friendly parks in the league but IIRC, most of the damage is done in summer months as it plays like a pitchers park in April. Tons of rain delays/ppd too. A .275/.339/.461 line is pretty decent anyway.

Devers At Home
April: 31 PA .258/.258/.452, 0bb/7k
May: 60 PA .275/.383/.451, 9bb/13k
June: 21 PA .300/.333/.500, 1bb/1k
 

redsox2020

Member
SoSH Member
May 30, 2002
268
KS
So Farrell just pinch hit for Panda, knowing he'd have to put Christian Vazquez at third base for an inning. Last time Vazquez played a professional inning at third base? As an 18 year old with the Lowell Spinners.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

Indian name is Massages Ellsbury
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2003
4,073
Willamette Valley
In the past week, Sandoval has been removed from the game late for (a) pinch-runner, (b) pinch-hitter, and (c) defensive replacement: There are literally no baseball acts he can perform adequately.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Well, I was one of the more vocal proponents of giving him some leash to see if he could rebound. That's clearly not happening. DFA him or try to move him to save pennies via subsidy and find a replacement. It's beyond the point of trying apparently. The guy is done.
 

MikeM

Member
SoSH Member
May 27, 2010
3,051
Florida
If i would of had to guess previously, Farrell would of been my last pick to apparently be the first one to both fully recognize and finally accept Pablo for the sunk cost he is.

It wasn't even your signing DD. Just cut the cord clean and move on already.