WWDC 2014 Gamethread

derekson

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I kind of figured they'd at least show off new iMacs or something, but they showed enough impressive software stuff that I don't think anyone will really complain.
 
The look of shock around the room when they announced they were moving on from Objective-C was just priceless.
 

canderson

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To a non-iOS developer who only knows CSS and HTML and a little xml for websites what's that mean exactly? Just a new protocol? 
 

bowiac

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The biggest thing I got out of this was TouchID being accepted in 3rd party apps. My comparatively uninformed sense is that this could lead to two-factor authentication taking off in a big way. Something has to cure password sprawl - why not this?
 

rembrat

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Fantastic so I don't have to learn about Pointers and all that nonsense?
 

rembrat

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canderson said:
To a non-iOS developer who only knows CSS and HTML and a little xml for websites what's that mean exactly? Just a new protocol? 
 
Things got easier? 
 

singaporesoxfan

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What Whatsapp still does well that iOS 8 doesn't seem to fix in iMessage (even after adapting many of Whatsapp's features): text between people in different countries without worrying that you're going to pay a fortune for international messaging.
 

TFP

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singaporesoxfan said:
What Whatsapp still does well that iOS 8 doesn't seem to fix in iMessage (even after adapting many of Whatsapp's features): text between people in different countries without worrying that you're going to pay a fortune for international messaging.
Are you referring to using SMS through iMessage (the new feature), or using iMessage like before internationally?
 
If it's the latter, I'm screwed.
 

Apisith

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Everyone uses WhatsApp or Line here so they really need to make iMessage cross platform if they want to break through in Asia. Their dominant market share in the US makes them lose sight of the fact that many people here don't want to spend one month's salary on an iPhone and thus go for a cheaper Android phone instead, meaning country after country end up adopting other messaging platforms due to network effects.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I'm trolling here, just to get that out of the way.

Yay, Apple introduced a bunch of stuff that Android and Windows has had for years!!

Serious question, but do iPhone user still get really stoked about these updates because they either a.) don't know that these features already exist on Android/Windows or b.) know they exist, but love Apple so much that they don't care?
 
 

canderson

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FL4WL3SS said:
I'm trolling here, just to get that out of the way.

Yay, Apple introduced a bunch of stuff that Android and Windows has had for years!!

Serious question, but do iPhone user still get really stoked about these updates because they either a.) don't know that these features already exist on Android/Windows or b.) know they exist, but love Apple so much that they don't care?
 
People are happy the most advanced phone fist created and still outpacing others incorporates technology others create into the ecosystem they prefer.
 
I mean, why get excited about flying the A380? Boeing has had a double-decker plane for 30+ years!
 
Edit: Clarity
 

teddykgb

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That's not a very serious question.  You basically asked are iphone users morons or sheep?
 
What was on display was Apple at its finest.  Building really highly integrated features that rewards its users for adopting the full set.  Undoubtedly, android has had a lot of the stuff from yesterday for years (although the SDK work and the full fucking frostbite engine on mobile are pipe dreams for android today IMO), but Apple tends to ask its users to let them work out the most fluid way to do it, and you trade time to market for some marginal improvement in intuitiveness and integration with the rest of the product.  If anything, for me personally, yesterday was one of the better Apple presentations in a while because it seemed like they rediscovered that making all this shit work without complication is what they do well.
 
I'm daily driving a Moto X, btw, so I'm neither an idiot or a sheep.  Apple played some catch up on the keyboards and widgets and what not yesterday, but the meat of the announcement really has a lot more to do with the other stuff.
 

AlNipper49

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But if Apple does those features right then that will be something that Android hasn't done yet.  I'm rocking the Moto X and it works - usually.  It's stupid little stuff that doesn't work from time to time that annoys me to no end.  While I have my beefs with the Apple ecosystem one thing is that, outside of the piece of shit that is Siri, stuff *generally* just works.  The freaking Android it's something new every day that I need to tinker with.  
 

FL4WL3SS

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How does that strategy pull new customers, though? I want to love the iPhone, but when you compare it to what else is on the market, it's just not worth it to switch (back). Sure, loyal iPhone and Mac customers are thrilled to wait for them to 'get it right', but I don't see how that applies to the customer-in-waiting.
 
I can't get excited about anything they just announced. It was basically "hey, current Apple customers, look at how we just made your life better". That's great, but how can you make MY life better.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Also, some of these features have been on Android for more than 6 years. That's a long time to play catch up and 'get it right'. I'd rather have a feature that is a bit buggy that gets better with age than not have the feature at all.
 

canderson

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This conference wasn't for the iPhone though - it was for the developers who design for the software behind their mobile devices. They in this conference essentially did something NO OTHER FIRM has done: Create a hybrid language that'll let your mobile device and desktop device play well with each other and utilize each others' strongsuits for the better. WWDC isn't a product day, it's a software day. As teddykgb said they nailed what no one else has come close to doing yet - tight-knit incorporation.
 
In the ecosystem v ecosystem battle that's becoming far more important than ever before. Not loving the iPhone has no relevant to that IMO.
 

NortheasternPJ

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FL4WL3SS said:
Also, some of these features have been on Android for more than 6 years. That's a long time to play catch up and 'get it right'. I'd rather have a feature that is a bit buggy that gets better with age than not have the feature at all.
 
You say this, but look at Apple Maps. The market had a fucking stroke because it was "a bit buggy" and the Hoover Dam didn't look right. The reason they even released Apple Maps is because Google forced them to since they wouldn't allow turn by turn directions on the iPhone.
 
In terms of iPhone vs Android, I don't have time to find the newest apps to do one function, then find out it doesn't work with everything or kills battery, to fuck around with my phone or do I have the desire. I have zero desire to customize, root, jailbreak or whatever. I need my phone to work, have the apps I want and expect it to work right. 
 
Apple's not in the business of selling to people who want that and they're not in the business of pushing stuff out half assed. They have done it and when they do, they get murdered for it. Plus is it really a market advantage to push towards the 2% who care about that? 
 
When larger screen iPhones come out I'm eager to see if it the pull is Android, or it's big screens. I bet it's big screens.
 

JKelley34

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FL4WL3SS said:
Also, some of these features have been on Android for more than 6 years. That's a long time to play catch up and 'get it right'. I'd rather have a feature that is a bit buggy that gets better with age than not have the feature at all.
 
Does it though?  Assuming Apple wasn't lying, 9% of Android users are on KitKat.
 
(Waiting for the Blacken: Look at you tardsheeple why aren't you buying an unlocked google phone!)
 

FL4WL3SS

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NortheasternPJ said:
 
You say this, but look at Apple Maps. The market had a fucking stroke because it was "a bit buggy" and the Hoover Dam didn't look right. The reason they even released Apple Maps is because Google forced them to since they wouldn't allow turn by turn directions on the iPhone.
 
In terms of iPhone vs Android, I don't have time to find the newest apps to do one function, then find out it doesn't work with everything or kills battery, to fuck around with my phone or do I have the desire. I have zero desire to customize, root, jailbreak or whatever. I need my phone to work, have the apps I want and expect it to work right. 
 
Apple's not in the business of selling to people who want that and they're not in the business of pushing stuff out half assed. They have done it and when they do, they get murdered for it. Plus is it really a market advantage to push towards the 2% who care about that? 
 
When larger screen iPhones come out I'm eager to see if it the pull is Android, or it's big screens. I bet it's big screens.
Who said anything about customizing, rooting or jailbreaking? I'm talking about features that are useful that have been available on other platforms for years.
 
And I agree that Apple is not in the business of selling to people that want that and neither is Google, Samsung or HTC. You're confusing the ability to do these things (and the large sub-culture of individuals that do) with the idea that your phone requires you to do it. It's just completely false . I don't think Google and Samsung are playing to the customization audience and everything Samsung (for example) has done over the last several years has indicated just that.
 
Apple, however, IS in the business of attracting new customers. Playing catchup with every release is not going to achieve that goal.
 

FL4WL3SS

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JKelley34 said:
 
Does it though?  Assuming Apple wasn't lying, 9% of Android users are on KitKat.
 
(Waiting for the Blacken: Look at you tardsheeple why aren't you buying an unlocked google phone!)
Sorry, but what percentage of iPhone users are on an earlier release of iOS? I know from experience that previous versions of iPhones do not support current releases of iOS.
 
I don't see how that advances the conversation, it's not really relevant. The fact is, many users choose to buy cheaper versions of Android phones that don't get updates. The better question is, how many Nexus users are still on an earlier release of Android.
 
Lets compare apples to apples (pun intended) and see where the numbers lay.
 

JKelley34

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FL4WL3SS said:
Sorry, but what percentage of iPhone users are on an earlier release of iOS? I know from experience that previous versions of iPhones do not support current releases of iOS.
 
I don't see how that advances the conversation, it's not really relevant. The fact is, many users choose to buy cheaper versions of Android phones that don't get updates. The better question is, how many Nexus users are still on an earlier release of Android.
 
Lets compare apples to apples (pun intended) and see where the numbers lay.
iOS 7 is supported back through iPhone4 (excluding Siri and Airdrop) which was released June 2010
 
Current adoption is around 90%
 
http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/07/apple-puts-ios-7-adoption-at-87-as-ios-6-and-older-fade-to-black/
http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/05/30/ahead-of-ios-8-announcement-ios-7-adoption-nears-90-for-iphone-85-for-ipad-
 

NortheasternPJ

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FL4WL3SS said:
 
I don't see how that advances the conversation, it's not really relevant. The fact is, many users choose to buy cheaper versions of Android phones that don't get updates. The better question is, how many Nexus users are still on an earlier release of Android.
 
 
Isn't the crux of the argument? You said earlier that it's Apple's job to "catch up" and "pull in new customers". The way to do that is form factor and software features. So in terms of software features, most (90%+) are on an OS 1-3 years old. 
 
Then your argument is "well a lot of people don't care, so they should be relevant, let's just look at the power users who buy a Nexus device" 
 
According to developer.android:
 
https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html?utm_source=ausdroid.net
 
8.5% are running the latest OS
60.8% are running a version of Jelly Bean released in the last 1-2 years
16.2% are running an OS that's 3+ years old.
 
So what should we compare? Compared to Apple 98%+ are on iOS 6 or 7, and 90% of the total on iOS 7.
 
If Apple can deliver "catch up" or specific features from Blackberry, Android and Windows Phone, plus add in their own improvements and innovations and deliver them to 90% of the millions of users that use their devices and have it work well (with exceptions aka "Siri", then they are succeeding where Android can't. That's being successful in the market and how they can gain market share and more importantly, gain paying users as opposed to Android users who don't buy anything and use their phone to call and text.
 
 
Edit: I have to leave in a second, but I believe Blacken even said at some point recently in a thread on here there's no money in developing for Android. If I'm wrong I apologize but I don't have time right now to look it up. No paying for apps = shitty apps in the long run.
 
 

singaporesoxfan

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The Four Peters said:
Are you referring to using SMS through iMessage (the new feature), or using iMessage like before internationally?
 
If it's the latter, I'm screwed.
I'm not sure it's a new feature but basically yes I was talking about something like the former: if you want to send an SMS to an international number through iMessage you have to be sure that 1) the person has an iPhone and 2) the person is in an area that receives data. Otherwise the messaging app won't use iMessage and it will revert to sending an ordinary SMS i.e. you get the usual expensive charge for sending a text to a foreign number. With Whatsapp you don't have to worry about what phone the person has or whether she is currently in an area with data (the message just won't send if the person can't get data).
 

sibpin

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JKelley34 said:
Does it though?  Assuming Apple wasn't lying, 9% of Android users are on KitKat.
 
This doesn't matter as much as it once did if we're talking about software features.
 
What Apple calls iOS is actually three layers on Google Android:
  1. The Android Operating System
  2. Google Play Services
  3. Google Apps
The Android OS is the one where the 9% statistics are cited. Updates to the Android OS require Google, hardware manufacturer (who usually make their own skins/changes as well), cell carrier, and user approval, which makes this a really onerous process. The OS contains hardware support (Bluetooth LE, NFC, printing, etc.), heavy software features that have system-wide effects (multiple tablet users, video DRM, SMS/MMS handling, etc.), and a lot of design/theming choices (fonts, launcher layouts, etc.). These features aren't usually immediately user-facing, but they're used by user-facing apps. Of course you're better having these updates than not having these updates, but I would guess very few of these features from one version to the next actually get used (of course, if you don't update for several years, it starts to build). What Tim Cook is 100% right about is that security holes found in older versions of the Android OS cannot be patched quickly.
 
Google Play Services, by contrast, are updated automatically in the background. According to Google, it reaches all online devices worldwide within 2 weeks. Apple would kill to have that kind of turnaround. This contains access to cooler features that tend to be more dependent on Google's proprietary technologies - maps/locations, in-app purchases and payments, single sign-in, analytics, gaming, Drive (cloud) uploads/integration, Chromecast support, etc. App developers use a lot of these tools and don't have to worry about what version of the OS is on a given device.
 
And then Google Apps are what are used on other platforms - Search, Voice Recognition, Maps, Gmail, YouTube, Calendar, Hangouts, etc. - as well as certain system tools like the keyboards and camera. These are now updated like regular apps and most of the products are on a roughly monthly release cycle. My guess is the main reason Apple doesn't do this is because it would make their annual keynotes one-tenth as long. Granted, Google App updates can be held back by the Android OS, but Google's been pretty good at releasing versions that take advantage of whatever features are available on that device.
 
Apple's not going to make this comparison, because OS-to-OS numbers look better for them (and hide the fact that they also have fragmentation, e.g. no Siri on iPhone 4). If you're on a 3-year-old Android phone, you probably don't have Bluetooth Low-Energy and it's pretty hard to print files. But you can use in-app purchases in the latest location-based gaming apps or stream video to your TV using Chromecast. You'll have the latest Maps improvements (like lane guidance) and your Gmail app will look pretty similar to one on a brand new device. It's not a good scenario by any means - the hardware is worse than today's low-end devices and the OS is ugly/unintuitive - but OS updates mean a lot more for iOS devices than for Android devices.
 

canderson

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Kinda hidden but pretty cool is the iPad will be able to be used as a secondary display - that'd be awesome.
 

TFP

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singaporesoxfan said:
I'm not sure it's a new feature but basically yes I was talking about something like the former: if you want to send an SMS to an international number through iMessage you have to be sure that 1) the person has an iPhone and 2) the person is in an area that receives data. Otherwise the messaging app won't use iMessage and it will revert to sending an ordinary SMS i.e. you get the usual expensive charge for sending a text to a foreign number. With Whatsapp you don't have to worry about what phone the person has or whether she is currently in an area with data (the message just won't send if the person can't get data).
For what it's worth, it just errors out in iMessage. You have to actively choose to send as a text message.
 

FL4WL3SS

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sibpin said:
 
This doesn't matter as much as it once did if we're talking about software features.
 
What Apple calls iOS is actually three layers on Google Android:
  1. The Android Operating System
  2. Google Play Services
  3. Google Apps
The Android OS is the one where the 9% statistics are cited. Updates to the Android OS require Google, hardware manufacturer (who usually make their own skins/changes as well), cell carrier, and user approval, which makes this a really onerous process. The OS contains hardware support (Bluetooth LE, NFC, printing, etc.), heavy software features that have system-wide effects (multiple tablet users, video DRM, SMS/MMS handling, etc.), and a lot of design/theming choices (fonts, launcher layouts, etc.). These features aren't usually immediately user-facing, but they're used by user-facing apps. Of course you're better having these updates than not having these updates, but I would guess very few of these features from one version to the next actually get used (of course, if you don't update for several years, it starts to build). What Tim Cook is 100% right about is that security holes found in older versions of the Android OS cannot be patched quickly.
 
Google Play Services, by contrast, are updated automatically in the background. According to Google, it reaches all online devices worldwide within 2 weeks. Apple would kill to have that kind of turnaround. This contains access to cooler features that tend to be more dependent on Google's proprietary technologies - maps/locations, in-app purchases and payments, single sign-in, analytics, gaming, Drive (cloud) uploads/integration, Chromecast support, etc. App developers use a lot of these tools and don't have to worry about what version of the OS is on a given device.
 
And then Google Apps are what are used on other platforms - Search, Voice Recognition, Maps, Gmail, YouTube, Calendar, Hangouts, etc. - as well as certain system tools like the keyboards and camera. These are now updated like regular apps and most of the products are on a roughly monthly release cycle. My guess is the main reason Apple doesn't do this is because it would make their annual keynotes one-tenth as long. Granted, Google App updates can be held back by the Android OS, but Google's been pretty good at releasing versions that take advantage of whatever features are available on that device.
 
Apple's not going to make this comparison, because OS-to-OS numbers look better for them (and hide the fact that they also have fragmentation, e.g. no Siri on iPhone 4). If you're on a 3-year-old Android phone, you probably don't have Bluetooth Low-Energy and it's pretty hard to print files. But you can use in-app purchases in the latest location-based gaming apps or stream video to your TV using Chromecast. You'll have the latest Maps improvements (like lane guidance) and your Gmail app will look pretty similar to one on a brand new device. It's not a good scenario by any means - the hardware is worse than today's low-end devices and the OS is ugly/unintuitive - but OS updates mean a lot more for iOS devices than for Android devices.
Well said and something I think most people, including myself, are not able to articulate.
 

derekson

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mt8thsw9th said:
How's iOS 8? Anyone have a slot in their dev account?
 
On a related note, does anyone know if they're doing any public beta testing of iOS 8? I know they're doing a beta program for Yosemite but with so many of the features relying on integration between the two you'd think they'd want those users on iOS 8 as well. 
 

derekson

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I signed up but I haven't installed it because of the warning that you won't be able to access your iCloud documents from non-Yosemite devices after upgrading.