XFL: Round 2?

cgori

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My roommate and I bought season tickets for the San Francisco Demons of the original XFL - their home field was AT&T park (then Pac Bell Park). It was a good deal, and the tickets came with a parking pass, which was quite a commodity. The football was pretty crap but the experience was entertaining and not priced insanely high.

They'd probably get good traction in SF again since the Niners decided to decamp to Santa Clara, which might as well be in another universe as far as city residents are concerned.
 
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Awesome Fossum

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The football was pretty crap but the experience was entertaining and not priced insanely high.
I think this is a perfect description for the original. Like I said, it's Triple A football with major league production values. But there are things the league can do to nudge the quality of play in the right direction.

Preparation Time

I think when most people (not all) say that the football was bad, what they are really saying is that the first half of the first game was boring. Which it was. The 30 for 30 makes the case that the teams weren't given enough of a training camp to be able to operate at a high level on Week 1, and I think there's some merit to that. However, Las Vegas and New York turned out to be two of the more mediocre teams over the course of the season, so I'm not sure a longer training camp would have saved much of anything. But it couldn't hurt, and I doubt this is a mistake they repeat.

The Players

The players are necessarily going to be replacement level. There's no way around it, and calls to outbid the NFL for lower tier free agents or to sign college underclassmen are misguided. The XFL need to complement the existing football ecosystem, as your fan base is almost exclusively going to consist of existing college and/or NFL fans. The costs are just too high to work in conflict with either of the major powers.

There are some things I think they can do on the margins to improve the talent pool: they can go after the players who have declared for the NFL Draft and might like to make $50-100K and add some game film ahead of the draft. You could even schedule a bye week for the combine. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to snap up anyone the NCAA says is ineligible but isn't yet eligible for the draft, like Tyrone Mathieu. And eventually, if the league survives until the next NFL CBA, they can pursue an NFL Europe type arrangement where NFL teams send their backups and practice squad players to the league for game experience. Think like winter ball in baseball. Bottom line: occupy the space between college and the NFL, but occupy it completely.

The Coaches

Perhaps the cheapest fix is to hire coaches who play a more interesting version of football. As Chris B. Brown observed on Twitter, the original crop of coaches were all of the "three yards and a cloud of dust" variety while the spread revolution was unfolding.

I would pursue variety. Certainly have someone running spread. Hire Hal Mumme. Hell, hire Art Briles. But also hire someone to run the triple option, have someone running the pistol. And sure, have someone acting like it's still the 1970s. The more diversity, the better.

This isn't a panacea -- the UFL's Florida Tuskers had Jay Gruden as HC and Sean McVay as OC, and nobody gave a shit. But I do think it would help.
 
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MiracleOfO2704

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Soccer specific stadiums have since been built in LA, Orlando, Chicago, and New York. That's a much better capacity for the XFL, and I'll be interested to see if they pursue those types of venues this time around. The Chargers and Toronto Argonauts both played in soccer specific stadiums this season.
That’s not likely a good comparison, since BMO Field is way more in like with CFL stadia capacities than Rogers Centre. Hell, the Grey Cup was played at TD Place in Ottawa, and its capacity is WAY below BMO’s.

Edit: I assumed BMO was around 35k, but it’s about the same as TD: 25k. Point stands, outside of Edmonton and BC, the typical CFL stadium seats 25k-35k.
 
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Tyrone Biggums

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Art Briles should never be allowed to coach again. Period. He oversaw a program that covered up and promoted rape culture. The XFL is trying to rebound from its initial launch which was a disaster. But I see a pretty good opportunity for guys who are being overlooked on practice squads and players like Kaepernick who the NFL doesn’t want. I’m also pretty sure they’re going to grab Ocho Cinco and TO for ratings purposes as well. Johnny Football if he’s sober would also be a good addition.

Let’s face it. You give America a league with less flags on holding and let the players play and people will respond. Social Media would have to be a very big part of it. Stream practices and games on Facebook for instance. Think about how many undrafted players make an impact on NFL rosters. Guys who wash out in the league get an opportunity to start instead of holding a clipboard. They also need to treat cheerleaders with respect. The clips in this thread reminded me how disgustingly sexist the original XFL was. It will expand the demographic

All that being said if you don’t have good coaching then the league will fail again. That’s a big reason why the original was such a joke. Even if you pluck D1 assistants and guys like say a Jim Tressell or hell even a Jim Mora it would make the product much more legitimate than having Butkis on the sidelines.

Also the XFL needs to be allowed to draft Freshmen. That would give a serious competitive edge.
 
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Jnai

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What is the point of starting NFL 2.0 if you're going to remove the flags and allow Kaepernick to play?

I just don't understand the target audience.

But seriously, the most obvious player pool is college. The NFL has a year's out of highschool restriction. Drop that in XFL 2.0, and recruit from Alabama, Ohio State, etc. Even if you could only pay them half the vet minimum because the league is broke, you will have an instant group of recognizable stars with every incentive to sign up and zero bargaining power.
 

Awesome Fossum

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That’s not likely a good comparison, since BMO Field is way more in like with CFL stadia capacities than Rogers Centre. Hell, the Grey Cup was played at TD Place in Ottawa, and its capacity is WAY below BMO’s.
I'm not really following. Are you saying that the XFL needs bigger stadiums than BMO (25K) or TD Place (24K)? I think those capacities are perfect, and I mentioned the Argonauts and Chargers only as examples of MLS teams currently sharing a field with pro football teams.
 

Awesome Fossum

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All that being said if you don’t have good coaching then the league will fail again. That’s a big reason why the original was such a joke. Even if you pluck D1 assistants and guys like say a Jim Tressell or hell even a Jim Mora it would make the product much more legitimate than having Butkis on the sidelines
Butkus wasn't a coach. I believe his title was Director of Competition, but he was really just an ambassador. The coaches weren't inspiring, but they were real coaches, including former Pats head Ron Meyer.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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I'm not really following. Are you saying that the XFL needs bigger stadiums than BMO (25K) or TD Place (24K)? I think those capacities are perfect, and I mentioned the Argonauts and Chargers only as examples of MLS teams currently sharing a field with pro football teams.
They don’t, and to be fair, in your original example, the Chargers are the true outlier. The Argos got out of a bad stadium for them (way too big, horrible turf) for one more in line with the rest of the league, while the Chargers, like the Rams, are just parking at Home Depot until the Inglewood stadium is done, and hoping the new stadium brings back fans. Everyone knows the Chargers aren’t where they’ll be long-term, even if they should be.
 

Kliq

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In regards to the stadiums, I think the new league could be an arena football league, which would cut down on costs and be easier since McMahon has connections with virtually every arena in every market in the US.
 

Awesome Fossum

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Not just facility costs; you only have to sign a fraction of the players to fill out an indoor roster.

It would be a bit ironic, since one of the XFL's marketing lines was something like "no domes, no turf" (supposedly in response to a deal for the Alamodome falling through). On the other hand, we know the league will move inside at some point in the future.


I just looked to see how the AFL was doing after playing the 2017 season with just five teams. Predictably, it's only getting worse, with Tampa Bay folding and Cleveland going on hiatus. They're down to THREE active teams, with Albany supposedly coming in as an expansion team. I would say it's a shame, but the Arena rule set is so, so bad. Anything Vince comes up with will surely be an improvement.
 
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AlNipper49

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I think that he’s pulling out the money in order to get a partnership group together to make a run at the Panthers
 

Boston Brawler

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Multiple news outlets (CBS, Forbes, Bleacher Report) say the announcement will be XFL launch for 2020.
 

Jnai

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This will fail miserably again.
With enough money, I don't understand why. Tell everyone at Alabama and Ohio St that, regardless of their nfl eligibility, they can come play right now. Get trump to announce that he supports the league, because they are true patriots. Sign a few star players from the NFL.
 

JimD

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I can't wait for everyone to lose their shit when it's revealed that Donald Jr. and Eric are buying a franchise.
 

Zososoxfan

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With enough money, I don't understand why. Tell everyone at Alabama and Ohio St that, regardless of their nfl eligibility, they can come play right now. Get trump to announce that he supports the league, because they are true patriots. Sign a few star players from the NFL.
I agree this would be a big boon to the league - i.e. NFL-quality talent that the league won't touch because of its cozy and symbiotic relationship with the NCAA. But in practice, it will need to be a lot of money for these guys since presumably the NFL will basically outlaw/blackball any player who doesn't fit their eligibility. But, overall I'm all for blowing up the NCAA.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I will watch this league if they adopt any 3 of these rules:

Make it, take it. When you score a touchdown, you get the ball back on your 25 yard line. If the other team can't stop you, that's their problem. Down by 4 scores in the 4th quarter? The game isn't over, you still have a chance if you can keep scoring touchdowns. If you only get a field goal, you still have to kick off, because the other team kept you out of the end zone. Go for touchdowns more often, less field goals.

20-second play clock. Cut way back on guys standing around in huddles, get more action in there. Less substitution means more well rounded players, and less waiting around for players to run on and off the field. Harder to run out the clock at the end of the game, and less taking a knee.

Leather helmets, no facemasks. No more helmets as concussive weapons. Let's see the players' faces.

Offensive holding is legal. Take away the most random calls in the NFL. There's holding on every play anyway, but it's only called once in a while, which is insane. Let everyone grab and pull. The defense can grab and hold and to tackle a runner, even tackle by pulling the shirt, so let offensive players do that too. if you want to pressure the QB you will probably have to blitz several guys.

Pass interference is legal. Take away the second most random calls, that are also the most impactful and controversial. No more Flacco incompletions that gain 60 yards. This makes passing a lot harder, but the other rule changes will make offense in general easier and defense harder.

Offense can line up in any formation they want. The defense can line up any way they want, so why not the offense?

A catch is possessing the ball with both feet or a knee inbounds. If you possess the ball with both feet inbounds but drop it going to the ground, it's a catch and fumble. The ref makes a judgment call if the receiver has possession or not.

All offensive players are always eligible receivers. Why can only some players catch a pass? Why shouldn't the defense have to guard everyone?

Once all offensive players all come set, they can move as long as they don't cross the line of scrimmage before the snap. Take away stupid false start penalties and let the offensive players do what the defenders can do. Once all offensive players are set, the ref blows the whistle, which is the signal that they can now move and/or start a play. No whistle until they are all set, no play can start until there is a whistle.

Any play/call can be reviewed on video if a team challenges it. Teams have 3 challenges per game. If they win their challenge, they don't get charged. Officials have no more than 45 seconds to come back with a ruling once the challenge clock starts.

There's no "breaking the imaginary plane" of the end zone. To score a touchdown, you have to possess the ball with both feet or a knee down in the other team's end zone.

End zones are 20 yards deep. Goalposts stay at the back of the end zone.

Offensive team fumbles out of the end zone, they get the ball back at the spot of the fumble.

One time out per team per half.

Punts that go out of bounds are a 15-yard penalty from where they go out. Punting is dumb and boring, there should be less of it, and when there is a punt, there should at least be a punt return. Punting out of bounds is extra boring and passive-aggressive. If you insist on doing it, pay a price.
 

The Big Red Kahuna

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Make it, take it. When you score a touchdown, you get the ball back on your 25 yard line. If the other team can't stop you, that's their problem. Down by 4 scores in the 4th quarter? The game isn't over, you still have a chance if you can keep scoring touchdowns. If you only get a field goal, you still have to kick off, because the other team kept you out of the end zone. Go for touchdowns more often, less field goals.
I kinda love this idea. Or some variation of it. Tempted to say you need to go for 2 and be successful to keep it.

20-second play clock. Cut way back on guys standing around in huddles, get more action in there. Less substitution means more well rounded players, and less waiting around for players to run on and off the field. Harder to run out the clock at the end of the game, and less taking a knee.

Leather helmets, no facemasks. No more helmets as concussive weapons. Let's see the players' faces.

Offensive holding is legal.

Offense can line up in any formation they want. The defense can line up any way they want, so why not the offense?
I think I can get behind these.

Pass interference is legal. Take away the second most random calls, that are also the most impactful and controversial. No more Flacco incompletions that gain 60 yards. This makes passing a lot harder, but the other rule changes will make offense in general easier and defense harder.

All offensive players are always eligible receivers. Why can only some players catch a pass? Why shouldn't the defense have to guard everyone?
Eh. These seem a bit absurd. You can literally just tackle receivers at will? Nah. And anytime a QB wants to just dump it to an open OL guy for 2 yards, he can? Don't like either of these at all.

As for your other comments:
Catch rule - some change obviously needed; not sure what's optimal from an easy to determine/no vague area
Offensive players "false starts" - I'm ok with this change
Reviews - get rid of them. Completely.
End zone size - 20 yards seems to big. Keep as is. Is there a problem with current size, or just trying to create even more offense?
One time out per team per half - Yep
Out-of-bounds punt penalty - I like it.
 

Hoya81

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Pretty similar to the previous iteration, but some added wrinkles like an anthem requirement and being less “adult”.

Will be a single entity owned by McMahon, no cities announced yet.

Also, haven’t watched WWE in long time, McMahon looks like he’s beginning to show his age and slow down a bit.
 

BaseballJones

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Totally agree with Gray Eagle on the "why can't everyone be eligible to catch a pass" rule. I'd LOVE to see the NFL implement that. And really, no reason why they shouldn't.

The "make it take it" rule is quirky but super fun. Imagine this Patriots team with that rule? Maybe modified to a "make it take it if you score a touchdown", or even quirkier, if you score a TD, you get the ball at your own 40, but if you kick a FG, you only get it at your 20. But I mean, hey, you still get the ball.
 

Jnai

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Seriously? You are proposing rule changes that will essentially break the modern game of football.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I'm proposing rule changes that I'd like to see the XFL try. Otherwise I would have zero interest in a Vince McMahon league or really any other league that served up basically the same game the NFL serves up.

If they tried totally rethinking football to make it more fun and get rid of some of the dumb, boring and pointless parts of the game, I'd give it a look.

Don't worry, the NFL will never look at any of these rule changes.
 

The Big Red Kahuna

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Seriously? You are proposing rule changes that will essentially break the modern game of football.
That's kind of precisely the point. Differentiate it enough, but improve some areas. Or at least be willing to try changes that you can amend or drop. Why does it have to be exactly the same rules as current NFL/college?
 

8slim

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https://t.co/9KDltXncRi

Pretty similar to the previous iteration, but some added wrinkles like an anthem requirement and being less “adult”.

Will be a single entity owned by McMahon, no cities announced yet.

Also, haven’t watched WWE in long time, McMahon looks like he’s beginning to show his age and slow down a bit.
The one thing I love is McMahon saying that he wants to play the game within a 2 hour window.

This new XFL will ultimately fail, of course, for all of the obvious reasons. But if Vince can implement a handful of advancements that the NFL can steal, then that could be a win for fans. Dramatically shorter game windows would be a revelation.
 

scottyno

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That's kind of precisely the point. Differentiate it enough, but improve some areas. Or at least be willing to try changes that you can amend or drop. Why does it have to be exactly the same rules as current NFL/college?
The product will suck even more if they're taking already bad football players and then making them play under a very different set of rules than they've played under the rest of their life.
 

Jnai

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OK, but there are differences and then there are differences. It's like, let's change rocks paper scissors to have a fourth thing that slots in between paper and rock (OK...) and also it beats scissors (uhhhhh) and also you need to cut off your opponents hand with a chainsaw when you use it (uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?????).

Some of your suggestions are pretty close to chainsaw for the modern game of football.
 

moondog80

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The one thing I love is McMahon saying that he wants to play the game within a 2 hour window.

This new XFL will ultimately fail, of course, for all of the obvious reasons. But if Vince can implement a handful of advancements that the NFL can steal, then that could be a win for fans. Dramatically shorter game windows would be a revelation.
Shorter game windows = less advertising, right? Is this something the NFL wants?
 

Hoya81

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I don't think they can survive competing against the NFL in established NFL cities, but they might carve out a audience serving abandoned/undeserved markets

West
Oakland (Raiders will have left by then)
Portland
San Diego
Salt Lake City

East
San Antonio
Orlando
Memphis
St. Louis

The more modest rating expectations of this version might help it survive a bit longer.
 

Captaincoop

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I agree this would be a big boon to the league - i.e. NFL-quality talent that the league won't touch because of its cozy and symbiotic relationship with the NCAA. But in practice, it will need to be a lot of money for these guys since presumably the NFL will basically outlaw/blackball any player who doesn't fit their eligibility. But, overall I'm all for blowing up the NCAA.
The NFL isn't going to permanently blackball good players just to appease the NCAA. This is going to be the NCAA's (well deserved) problem to deal with.
 

Captaincoop

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I don't think they can survive competing against the NFL in established NFL cities, but they might carve out a audience serving abandoned/undeserved markets

West
Oakland (Raiders will have left by then)
Portland
San Diego
Salt Lake City

East
San Antonio
Orlando
Memphis
St. Louis

The more modest rating expectations of this version might help it survive a bit longer.
They can't roll out a league with zero presence in the entire Northeast. I get why that makes sense on one level, but you're talking about 1/3 of the country's population.
 

The Gray Eagle

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OK, but there are differences and then there are differences. It's like, let's change rocks paper scissors to have a fourth thing that slots in between paper and rock (OK...) and also it beats scissors (uhhhhh) and also you need to cut off your opponents hand with a chainsaw when you use it (uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?????).

Some of your suggestions are pretty close to chainsaw for the modern game of football.
The modern game of football sucks in a lot of ways. There's a long list of issues, including player safety, slow pace, so much down time, refs having too much impact, too many convoluted nitpicky rules, too many commercials, etc. The NFL will never look at creative ways to transform the game, and with all the money they make, they probably shouldn't. A new league is the only way that the game could ever be majorly improved.

Any new league is going to have weaknesses. This particular new league is going to be even worse, since it's run by the loathsome criminal Vince McMahon, will have moronic, pointless national anthem rules, and probably will be even more unsafe for players with no rules against head shots or something to appeal to WWE fans and people who think these modern day players have it too easy. Pile-drive the QB, just like in the old days when players were TOUGH!

The only way I would be interested in watching a second of this league is if they actually tried to rethink football from the ground up to try to make it better. If they do try to boldly revamp the game, I'd give it a shot. I think it's really the only way it could ever actually succeed. Offer a new, improved game of football and maybe they could make it.

They're obviously not going to try all of those rules at once, but like I said, if they tried 3 or 4 of them, I'd check it out.

Most likely, they won't try anything that's very different, and this league will basically be the NFL, but with zero tradition, much worse players, more risk and less pay for the players, and stupid forced patriotism rules.
 

Leather

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They can't roll out a league with zero presence in the entire Northeast. I get why that makes sense on one level, but you're talking about 1/3 of the country's population.
West
Oakland
Portland
San Diego
Salt Lake City
San Antonio
Anaheim (need an LA-area team)

East
Orlando
St. Louis
Oklahoma City
New York
Columbus, OH
Milwaukee
 

Marciano490

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Maybe Hartford can finally get that pro football team Kraft almost brought them.
 

Pandemonium67

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Can't believe anyone would advocate for doing away with reviews. Speed them up, make them better -- good. But trashing them? It's like you don't remember the bad old days. Or, home plate umps in baseball.
 

Captaincoop

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Can't believe anyone would advocate for doing away with reviews. Speed them up, make them better -- good. But trashing them? It's like you don't remember the bad old days. Or, home plate umps in baseball.
Having watched sports in the era when you had to live with occasional bad calls on penalties and on regular plays, and also through the era where the bad calls on regular plays are corrected, the ones on penalties are not, and we get multiple breaks in the action of up to a few minutes each...personally I prefer the old way.
 

Ed Hillel

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The NFLPA is probably high-fiving it up at the timing of this. If the XFL survives its first season with decent ratings, league owners will have to be careful not to push too hard when the CBA expires soon after, or Vince might reach out and snag some players. Knowing Vince, it played into his thought process on the timing. It will also be campaign season for Trump, assuming he’s still in office, and I have little doubt he’d like nothing more than to endorse the nationalist XFL and stick it to the owners who wouldn’t let him into the NFL.
 

8slim

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It'd be funny if it's only in red states.
Obviously McMahon is a yuuuge Trump guy, but he’s a businessman first (and second, and tenth). The WWE has a very diverse fan base and does a lot under the banner of inclusion and progressivism. Other than maybe having some dopey “everyone stands for the anthem” rule (which Adam Silver essentially enacted for the NBA) I don’t expect Vince to politicize this.

I hope he puts a team in Fairfield County, I’ll totally buy season tickets just for the hell of it.
 

Spelunker

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They can't roll out a league with zero presence in the entire Northeast. I get why that makes sense on one level, but you're talking about 1/3 of the country's population.
Slight tangent- and there can be difficulty in agreeing on how to define the actual areas- but the Northeast is like half that.

The most dense for sure, but roughly 17% of the total population (or basically 1/6th).
 

8slim

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Shorter game windows = less advertising, right? Is this something the NFL wants?
That’s true given the way the production is formatted today in terms of commercial breaks. But there are ways around that. The NFL has draconian rules against TV partners selling in game sponsorships. There could be creative ways to reduce the number of traditional 30 second commercials while opening up more in game, native inventory to be sold. Honestly it’s a challenge the leagues are all facing. The length of games is a real issue in attracting younger viewers, solutions have to be found.
 

Hoya81

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They can't roll out a league with zero presence in the entire Northeast. I get why that makes sense on one level, but you're talking about 1/3 of the country's population.
There’s already 6 NFL teams in the Acela corridor, it’s hard to see new teams making much headway.

I also think the stadium ownership situations have changed so much since 2001 to make that more difficult. The Giants/Jets have an easier time blocking a team playing at MetLife versus old Giants Stadium.