XFL: Round 2?

8slim

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There’s already 6 NFL teams in the Acela corridor, it’s hard to see new teams making much headway.

I also think the stadium ownership situations have changed so much since 2001 to make that more difficult. The Giants/Jets have an easier time blocking a team playing at MetLife versus old Giants Stadium.
I imagine this league would be better served playing in smaller venues. Granted many of those have NFL ownership as well. But it’d probably be much better for, say, a metro NYC team to play where the Red Bulls play, or at the new home of NYCFC, than at MetLife.
 

Captaincoop

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There’s already 6 NFL teams in the Acela corridor, it’s hard to see new teams making much headway.

I also think the stadium ownership situations have changed so much since 2001 to make that more difficult. The Giants/Jets have an easier time blocking a team playing at MetLife versus old Giants Stadium.
They're not competing with the NFL teams, really.

Remember, the last time around, the two teams that led the league in attendance were directly in NFL markets.
 

jose melendez

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As much as I'm horrified by the idea of a Rush Limbaugh football league, and I'm worried that is the plan for this, is it a given that it will fail this time around? People really do like football, though apparently less so than in the past, and is it possible, even a little that Vince might have learned from last time around?

What I wonder, however, is whether he can succeed with sub-standard football. The USFL offered big money and got big players--that seems like the only recipe for success here.
 

Super Nomario

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As much as I'm horrified by the idea of a Rush Limbaugh football league, and I'm worried that is the plan for this, is it a given that it will fail this time around? People really do like football, though apparently less so than in the past, and is it possible, even a little that Vince might have learned from last time around?

What I wonder, however, is whether he can succeed with sub-standard football. The USFL offered big money and got big players--that seems like the only recipe for success here.
Even if they spend big money for big names, they're also going to need big uglies in the trenches to make it go. People already complain about the state of OL play in the NFL; I shudder to think what it would look like in a league like this.

Which is a point in favor of Gray Eagle's idea of letting everyone be an eligible receiver: you're not going to compete with the NFL (or even the NCAA) for top OL talent, so why not grab a bunch of 270-pound blocking TE and let them play as offensive tackles who also can catch a pass or two a game? The NFL doesn't have a lot of use for these guys, and they would be more valuable in this role than in the roles they play now. That in turn maybe opens things up for 220-230-pound speed rushers, which college has a lot of but the pro game can't put on the field 'cause they're too small. Compete for a different talent pool. It's debatable whether that's "football" at least as we know it but it might be interesting.

Coaching talent is going to be a huge problem; you can probably find enough Mike Martzes and Eric Manginis who the NFL doesn't have a lot of use for anymore, but who's going to take a coordinator or positional job over any NFL or any of 100+ FBS team gigs?
 

Kliq

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The league lost well over $100 million in one year with a major networking backing it and airing games. With FOX, NBC, ABC/ESPN and CBS all with hefty NFL contacts, I’m not sure they shell out for this.

There are a million wacky things to consider, but the first is Vince’s claim that it has nothing to do with WWE, which is going to be horseshit. For starters, WWE owns the trademark to the XFL, so WWE will have to either sell it to Alpha Sports, or curiously look the other way the entire time.

If they have one game I’ll consider it an accomplishment.
 

canderson

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Note I haven’t watched a snap of the NFL since summer 2016 except SB highlights of the comeback.

1) They should base a team in San Antonio, it’d be the biggest fanbase they could have.
2) I bet this is streamed on Facebook instead of aired on TV. WWE probably loses its USA deal next year and everything I’ve heard is it’ll be going to Facebook Live.
 

Kliq

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Note I haven’t watched a snap of the NFL since summer 2016 except SB highlights of the comeback.

1) They should base a team in San Antonio, it’d be the biggest fanbase they could have.
2) I bet this is streamed on Facebook instead of aired on TV. WWE probably loses its USA deal next year and everything I’ve heard is it’ll be going to Facebook Live.
WWE is not going to FB Live. They certainly are not losing their USA deal unless they get a better offer because USA has made them a tent pole, responsible for five hours a week of live, prime time content that generates some of the best numbers on cable. If anything they are going to get a better offer from a company like FOX.
 

Awesome Fossum

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I don't think they can survive competing against the NFL in established NFL cities, but they might carve out a audience serving abandoned/undeserved markets
They're not competing with the NFL; if anything, it's specifically designed to be a complementary product. Their competition is the NBA, the NHL, and college basketball.

The NFLPA is probably high-fiving it up at the timing of this. If the XFL survives its first season with decent ratings, league owners will have to be careful not to push too hard when the CBA expires soon after, or Vince might reach out and snag some players.
I'm sure the NFLPA is excited that someone is creating 500 new professional football jobs. I'm also sure that the NFL is happy to have someone funding an NFL Europe equivalent for them. The $100 million Vince is using to fund this league wouldn't cover Derek Carr's contract alone. There's no chance of them competing for players, certainly not in Year 2.
 

Awesome Fossum

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As much as I'm horrified by the idea of a Rush Limbaugh football league, and I'm worried that is the plan for this, is it a given that it will fail this time around? People really do like football, though apparently less so than in the past, and is it possible, even a little that Vince might have learned from last time around?.
It really depends on how we're defining success and failure. If success means making a profit, then failure is more or less inevitable. The only league to ever come out ahead is the NFL, and that took decades to achieve. Some CFL franchises are making a small profit; they might be coming out ahead overall, but not by much. Everyone else, including the AFL, were money losers.

You shouldn't get into pro football to make money; you should do it because you love football and are willing to lose some money to be able to say you're a pro football owner. If that's the mindset Vince has, I think keeping losses under control and putting on a respectable, entertaining product in front of a good crowd is definitely achievable. I think it's possible to be a critical success, in other words.

What I wonder, however, is whether he can succeed with sub-standard football. The USFL offered big money and got big players--that seems like the only recipe for success here.
That recipe only works if you can sustain losses longer than the NFL can. That was basically the AFL plan, and because their owners had deeper pockets than the NFL guys, it forced a merger. The USFL tried the same thing but ran out of money (or, appetite for losing money) and was forced to sue. And that was all pre NFL free agency; salaries have since exploded. Following that plan now would only be a recipe for Vince going bankrupt.
 

DanoooME

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Even if we get one innovation like the camera over the field from the first effort, it's worth it. That thing has been a great addition.
 

Ed Hillel

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I'm sure the NFLPA is excited that someone is creating 500 new professional football jobs. I'm also sure that the NFL is happy to have someone funding an NFL Europe equivalent for them. The $100 million Vince is using to fund this league wouldn't cover Derek Carr's contract alone. There's no chance of them competing for players, certainly not in Year 2.
The CBA expires in early February 2021. If there’s a prolonged and bitter work stoppage, which is quite possible after Goodell’s rampage the past decade, I could definitely see some players signing onboard. It depends what Vince is willing to pay.
 

Moviegoer

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As much as I'm horrified by the idea of a Rush Limbaugh football league, and I'm worried that is the plan for this, is it a given that it will fail this time around? People really do like football, though apparently less so than in the past, and is it possible, even a little that Vince might have learned from last time around?

What I wonder, however, is whether he can succeed with sub-standard football. The USFL offered big money and got big players--that seems like the only recipe for success here.
If anything is clear from looking at Vince McMahon's life, its that he hasn't learned anything new since the mid nineties.
 

DourDoerr

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I'm really interested in the idea of a football lab and approaching the game with a different set of eyes. I like the idea of leather helmets or the like and what kind of effect their use would have on concussions. Hell, the NFL should fund the use of them so they can see if it'd work or not.

It might be great if they could figure out a way to mike the players and be able to play it real time (goodbye networks) at different points in the game. I'd even be interested - in theory at least - in hearing the coaches' headphones if you're able to ensure it doesn't leak out onto the field of play.

Innovations like camera placement are probably percolating in some directors' heads waiting for the signal to go ahead and this might finally offer that freedom. The NFL and NCAA have too good of a thing for them to experiment on the fly, but the XFL would be (and was) perfect for this kind of stuff.
 

Reverend

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I'm really interested in the idea of a football lab and approaching the game with a different set of eyes. I like the idea of leather helmets or the like and what kind of effect their use would have on concussions. Hell, the NFL should fund the use of them so they can see if it'd work or not.

It might be great if they could figure out a way to mike the players and be able to play it real time (goodbye networks) at different points in the game. I'd even be interested - in theory at least - in hearing the coaches' headphones if you're able to ensure it doesn't leak out onto the field of play.

Innovations like camera placement are probably percolating in some directors' heads waiting for the signal to go ahead and this might finally offer that freedom. The NFL and NCAA have too good of a thing for them to experiment on the fly, but the XFL would be (and was) perfect for this kind of stuff.
GoPro?
 

BigJimEd

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Since we are discussing changes, I would like to see the yellow first down line we see on TV on the field.
Players and refs would know exactly where they need to get for the first down.

I know there was a company a few years back touting their ability to do this. If they could do this with reliability that would be a nice addition to the game
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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Leather helmets would be a disaster. Players aren't going to be slow and small all of a sudden, and knees, shoulders and the ground aren't going to be soft. There are many, many impacts to the head in a typical game that are not head to head, and the current helmets do a good job with them. A leather helmet would basically do nothing but protect against lacerations. Meanwhile, the primary design goal of hard shell helmets is to protect against skull fractures, and they do an excellent job of that. Leather helmets would not.
If people really want to see carnage, use leather helmets. But if you want to help cut concussions, implement very strong targeting rules.
 

Marciano490

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Leather helmets would be a disaster. Players aren't going to be slow and small all of a sudden, and knees, shoulders and the ground aren't going to be soft. There are many, many impacts to the head in a typical game that are not head to head, and the current helmets do a good job with them. A leather helmet would basically do nothing but protect against lacerations. Meanwhile, the primary design goal of hard shell helmets is to protect against skull fractures, and they do an excellent job of that. Leather helmets would not.
If people really want to see carnage, use leather helmets. But if you want to help cut concussions, implement very strong targeting rules.
Bit of tension there showing how hard it's going to be to limit concussions.

I think leather helmets would only help to the extent kids start playing with them in Pop Warner. By the time most guys go pro, they've been playing football for, what, 15 years? It's probably very hard to learn new techniques and approaches to the game at that point.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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Bit of tension there showing how hard it's going to be to limit concussions.

I think leather helmets would only help to the extent kids start playing with them in Pop Warner. By the time most guys go pro, they've been playing football for, what, 15 years? It's probably very hard to learn new techniques and approaches to the game at that point.
Yes, new(old) techniques need to be taught starting at the youth levels. No, leather helmets will not help at any level. Techniques and rules are the only ways to de-weaponize helmets. Not giving players the best head protection is just stupid and counter-productive. This is why the switch from leather to plastic was made initially.

EDIT--getting rid of seat belts and air bags isn't going to make people drive more safely. It's not going to make trees more flexible either
 
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8slim

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You shouldn't get into pro football to make money; you should do it because you love football and are willing to lose some money to be able to say you're a pro football owner. If that's the mindset Vince has, I think keeping losses under control and putting on a respectable, entertaining product in front of a good crowd is definitely achievable. I think it's possible to be a critical success, in other words.
Vince and his buddy in the White House have a lot in common, primarily a lifelong desire to prove themselves worthy to their respective fathers, and a compulsive need for acceptance from the mainstream/old guard. It's no surprise that both have desperately tried to get into the football biz. What's more of an old money, mainstream, boys club than football ownership?

FWIW, another thing working against XFL 2: Electric Boogaloo is that College Football and the NBA are much more popular nationally today than they were in the 80s (USFL) and even when the XFL first launched. Plus there's the tectonic shifts in media behavior and the rise of things like eSports. It's not really about the XFL competing with the NFL, or even any sports that are in season when they will be. It's about the XFL competing with the million entertainment options we have at our disposal today. I don't see a lot of people choosing to watch 3rd-rate pro football over Netflix or PS4.
 

Awesome Fossum

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I I don't see a lot of people choosing to watch 3rd-rate pro football over Netflix or PS4.
Neither of these are apples to apples, but let's not forget that there's clearly an appetite for third rate soccer in the United States, and replacement level football is doing pretty well in Canada. They have a PS4s and, I assume, Netflix in Regina too.
 

8slim

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Neither of these are apples to apples, but let's not forget that there's clearly an appetite for third rate soccer in the United States, and replacement level football is doing pretty well in Canada. They have a PS4s and, I assume, Netflix in Regina too.
That was obviously a bit of hyperbole on my part. Some people will watch of course. Question is will enough watch to make it financially viable to continue past season #1.
 

Jnai

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Below replacement level football is already the second most popular sport in America. It is currently controlled by a hilarious racket and somehow tied to regional Universities.

The players in that league are largely very poor, receive substandard lifetime medical care for participating in an extremely dangerous sport, and get ZERO pay.

That league routinely draws 100,000 fans per game and millions more in TV audience.

The vast majority of players in that league would be severely under skilled to play in the NFL.
 

Spacemans Bong

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People give a shit about colleges that they went to or are nearby, allowing them to believe they're local boys. Same with CFL teams in Canada.

Nobody gave a shit about the XFL or the USFL or the World League or the CFL in the US, except for Baltimore.
 

Hagios

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People give a shit about colleges that they went to or are nearby, allowing them to believe they're local boys. Same with CFL teams in Canada.

Nobody gave a shit about the XFL or the USFL or the World League or the CFL in the US, except for Baltimore.
Yup. Kudos to the colleges for somehow building a meaningful brand. Everywhere else no one cares about minor leagues. The ceiling for the XFL is not the Rose Bowl, but the AAA baseball playoffs.
 

Reverend

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Below replacement level football is already the second most popular sport in America. It is currently controlled by a hilarious racket and somehow tied to regional Universities.

The players in that league are largely very poor, receive substandard lifetime medical care for participating in an extremely dangerous sport, and get ZERO pay.

That league routinely draws 100,000 fans per game and millions more in TV audience.

The vast majority of players in that league would be severely under skilled to play in the NFL.
This is a brilliant and sobering set of observations.
 

Reverend

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Yup. Kudos to the colleges for somehow building a meaningful brand. Everywhere else no one cares about minor leagues. The ceiling for the XFL is not the Rose Bowl, but the AAA baseball playoffs.
It’s actually a weird American outgrowth of our obsession with competition and social Darwinism like 100 years ago. Competition was considered a necessary part of the curriculum for young men hoping to become tomorrow’s leaders. As such, competitive sport was inserted into the curriculum and thing obviously evolved from there (like kudzu...) and that’s why we have our collegiate sports system whereas Europe, having a different developmental trajectory, developed a club system independent of university.

The NCAA being an evil, corrupt, parasitic entity siphoning off the largesse enervated by a subordinated workforce that feels honor bound to adhere to its norms for no good reason but widespread acceptance of its standard developing out of this system intended to teach all the value of free, open, and honest competition in society is basically the icing on the cake for the metaphor.
 

DourDoerr

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Leather helmets would be a disaster.
Given your name, it's kind of funny that you're taking advocating for a better helmet. :)

I did say "leather helmet or the like" and should have emphasized "the like." There are all sorts of different helmets under development with new types of hard and soft shells. The XFL might be the place where some of these innovations finally get to see the light of day.
 

Reverend

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Given your name, it's kind of funny that you're taking advocating for a better helmet. :)

I did say "leather helmet or the like" and should have emphasized "the like." There are all sorts of different helmets under development with new types of hard and soft shells. The XFL might be the place where some of these innovations finally get to see the light of day.
The problem here is that such helmets might mitigate one specific type of damage, I.e. head launching shots, but then make innumerable others easier, such as the head whipping back and hitting the ground after a hit.

We don’t want a solution that solves one small, highly visible part of a problem just to exacerbate the bulk of it.


Edit: granted, now that I’ve typed that out, that does sound like the most NFLiest solution imaginable.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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The problem here is that such helmets might mitigate one specific type of damage, I.e. head launching shots, but then make innumerable others easier, such as the head whipping back and hitting the ground after a hit.

We don’t want a solution that solves one small, highly visible part of a problem just to exacerbate the bulk of it.


Edit: granted, now that I’ve typed that out, that does sound like the most NFLiest solution imaginable.
Or skull fractures. Or broken necks.
 

Hagios

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Or skull fractures. Or broken necks.
Yup, skull fractures are why football ditched leather helmets in the first place, and that was back when a big guy weighed 220. I think there may be a role for softer helmets, but leather helmets are not the solution. Football has more direct collisions than rugby.
 

Captaincoop

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Leather helmets would be a disaster. Players aren't going to be slow and small all of a sudden, and knees, shoulders and the ground aren't going to be soft. There are many, many impacts to the head in a typical game that are not head to head, and the current helmets do a good job with them. A leather helmet would basically do nothing but protect against lacerations. Meanwhile, the primary design goal of hard shell helmets is to protect against skull fractures, and they do an excellent job of that. Leather helmets would not.
If people really want to see carnage, use leather helmets. But if you want to help cut concussions, implement very strong targeting rules.
There have been studies done that show the opposite. Maybe not leather helmets, but much lighter and less substantial helmets, with no face masks.

I'll try and find them online, but I know I saw Chris Nowinski speak about it several times, I believe the Ivy League Office was involved in the research. This was several years ago, but there is at least an argument for it.

Essentially, the idea is that once you de-weaponize the helmet, and take away the face mask, players will immediately alter tackling technique to protect their own head, face, and teeth.
 

DourDoerr

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The problem here is that such helmets might mitigate one specific type of damage, I.e. head launching shots, but then make innumerable others easier, such as the head whipping back and hitting the ground after a hit.

We don’t want a solution that solves one small, highly visible part of a problem just to exacerbate the bulk of it.


Edit: granted, now that I’ve typed that out, that does sound like the most NFLiest solution imaginable.
Well, I'd argue that while it's highly visible, concussions are unfortunately not a small problem (and I don't think you mean quite this either). It's a big problem that everyone has been too eager to sweep under the rug for too long. The problems that the modern helmet have solved shouldn't be re-introduced, of course, although you're probably right that the NFL would go for a concussion-proof helmet over all else to quell the shouting.

W/R/T the XFL and its potential for innovation, developing a new type of helmet - hard shell, soft shell, hybrid, kryptonite - would be a great service to the game and I hope they spend some money in this area. If they want to go full 'Murican, then what's more 'Murican than an underdog coming up with a revolutionary idea - especially if it prevents the spillage of homeland blood?
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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Yup, skull fractures are why football ditched leather helmets in the first place, and that was back when a big guy weighed 220. I think there may be a role for softer helmets, but leather helmets are not the solution. Football has more direct collisions than rugby.
One of the features of a hard helmet is that any blow to the head is a glancing blow. Any soft spot, leads to a "sticking point" or basically a slightly longer point of impact, and that can lead to serious strain on the neck. A helmet is not neck protection, but a poorly designed helmet can put the neck in additional danger.
 

Reverend

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Well, I'd argue that while it's highly visible, concussions are unfortunately not a small problem (and I don't think you mean quite this either). It's a big problem that everyone has been too eager to sweep under the rug for too long. The problems that the modern helmet have solved shouldn't be re-introduced, of course, although you're probably right that the NFL would go for a concussion-proof helmet over all else to quell the shouting.

W/R/T the XFL and its potential for innovation, developing a new type of helmet - hard shell, soft shell, hybrid, kryptonite - would be a great service to the game and I hope they spend some money in this area. If they want to go full 'Murican, then what's more 'Murican than an underdog coming up with a revolutionary idea - especially if it prevents the spillage of homeland blood?
I didn’t mean to say concussions aren’t a significant problem.

I meant that removing protection from 50 concussions to prevent 1 highly visible concusion would be a very NFLish thing to do.
 

joe dokes

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If it looks like football any more than pro wrestling looks like Olympic wrestling, it will fail because it will be shitty football.
 

Awesome Fossum

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With respect to safety, the easiest thing they can do is cut the game to 48 minutes, which also helps them in their quest for a two hour broadcast.
 

Jnai

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People give a shit about colleges that they went to or are nearby, allowing them to believe they're local boys. Same with CFL teams in Canada.

Nobody gave a shit about the XFL or the USFL or the World League or the CFL in the US, except for Baltimore.
NCAA football is absurdly popular. But programs would be absolutely gutted with salaries for top recruits even at 50,000-100,000.

These kids are very poor, incur terrible medical burdens, and make no money. Playing NCAA football is a losing proposition by and large.

Yes, I understand that there are very few athletes that are so talented that they get scouted in high school as future no doubt NFL stars. But they are very rare. Even no doubt college stars are lucky to kick around for a year on an NFL practice squad, and a lot of NFL starters get recognized very late.

You don't really need to compete with NCAA football for viewers, because with a little effort, and without a massive antitrust campaign, you could destroy it economically. The level of talent in the league would fall off a cliff. There is probably a bottom which NCAA fans would tolerate before they eventually jumped ship. I don't see why you wouldn't reach in in 2-3 years.
 
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Captaincoop

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NCAA football is absurdly popular. But programs would be absolutely gutted with salaries for top recruits even at 50,000-100,000.

These kids are very poor, incur terrible medical burdens, and make no money. Playing NCAA football is a losing proposition by and large.

Yes, I understand that there are very few athletes that are so talented that they get scouted in high school as future no doubt NFL stars. But they are very rare. Even no doubt college stars are lucky to kick around for a year on an NFL practice squad, and a lot of NFL starters get recognized very late.

You don't really need to compete with NCAA football for viewers, because with a little effort, and without a massive antitrust campaign, you could destroy it economically. The level of talent in the league would fall off a cliff. There is probably a bottom which NCAA fans would tolerate before they eventually jumped ship. I don't see why you wouldn't reach in in 2-3 years.
College football programs have been around for 100+ years, you think they'd dry up and disappear in 2 years because 1% of the athlete pool was recruited to play in a new league? Doubtful. People follow college football for the uniforms, not for the players, anyway IMHO.

And one thing being overlooked here is that, while the players aren't paid a salary, they benefit from cutting edge training and nutrition and, in most cases now, luxury accommodations. The XFL is going to need a whole lot more than $100M to provide anything even comparable to what these players get from Power 5 schools in terms of training and exposure.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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These kids are very poor, incur terrible medical burdens, and make no money. Playing NCAA football is a losing proposition by and large.

Yes, I understand that there are very few athletes that are so talented that they get scouted in high school as future no doubt NFL stars. But they are very rare. Even no doubt college stars are lucky to kick around for a year on an NFL practice squad, and a lot of NFL starters get recognized very late.

If these kids were thinking about these things, they already wouldn't be playing in the NCAA. But they don't, because a good chunk of them think they've got a shot, and think they're immortal - and they're not going to sabotage their shot for a $50K salary. So you'll get the bottom of the roster upper classman who aren't starting.