Well, yeah. In odd years.Machado seems like a guy that's highly respected by his peers
Well, yeah. In odd years.Machado seems like a guy that's highly respected by his peers
I actually said both teams are hypocrites. I think they are both being stupid macho idiots who are continuing to try and one up each other. It's stupid. I am no way are "protecting the laundry. Here is my post for reference.It's dumb just because you don't like the point that as an organization, the Sox should see the whole picture, display an ounce of restraint, and focus on showing a bit of class?
Okay. Go on defending bean-ball baseball triggered by a baseball play that ended with an accidental injury. That's the game we all love.
If the roles were reversed, with the Yankees in the Sox's position and the Sox in the O's position, this place would be melting down over how classless the MFYs are. If my post is dumb, the posts defending this shit are an embarrassment.
You then brought in the Jones situation which is ridiculous. One is a major issue that we are still currently struggling with in society. The other is about people sliding and throwing baseball's at each other. It's cheap. They have nothing to do with each other. If you have to bring in the Jones incident to try and prove your point then your point fucking sucks.I think its absolutely laughable to think Sale didn't intentionally throw behind him. He didn't want to hit him. It was a message. The entire problem is both of these parties are hypocrites. I CANNOT IMAGINE what Buck Showalter would say if this was reversed. "I've got a player who was intentionally injured and we're the only one who have had a batter hit..."
The entire thing is bullshit. You're INSANE if you think Bundy didn't hit Mookie on purpose. Insane. It was the perfect time to hit him because you can say "look at the situation, we would never...." It was intentional, end of story. If they didn't hit Mookie, it's over, but they did so here we go.
Also, Buck Showalter sat on a high horse after the first inning and told MLB Network "The umps are suppose to protect the players and clearly they aren't" Dude. STFU are you kidding me?
Logical fallacies in this post: ad hominem; red herring; non sequitor; straw man; card stacking; either/or; begging the question; hasty generalization. And multiple examples of many of these, too.I completely blame the Sox for all of this and agree with everything Machado is saying.
Machado seems like a guy that's highly respected by his peers - including Pedroia himself - and from the moment he slid into Pedroia you could see he genuinely felt horrible about it. It wasn't a dirty play; bloodthirsty Sox fans watching their division lead slide overreacted and immediately accused him of intentionally injuring Pedroia (again, something PEDROIA doesn't even seem to think was the case).
Thus, to appease those whiny fans, the Red Sox opted to puff out their chest and go for retaliation. Not only did they miss, but they came out looking *awful* because they missed inches from the guy's head.
The O's get understandably upset because Machado was targeted by a guy without the control to get the job done right. Honestly, if Machado had been hit in the ass the first time, this all probably ends there.
With that said, Machado never meant to hurt Pedroia in the first place. It was an freakin' accident. Guys get hurt playing sports on the professional level all the time. So the O's, understandably pissed that Machado was nearly killed, come out and hit Mookie nowhere next to his head because their pitchers seem much more capable of getting the job done "right."
So the Sox get pissed and throw at Machado AGAIN. And they miss AGAIN. If they were pissed about Mookie, don't throw at the guy who you almost killed a week prior...go after someone else. And actually HIT the guy in the ass. But again, the Sox are trying too hard to be macho, Sale gets too amped up, and he throws zillion-mile-an-hour fastball behind Machado.
Through all of this the Sox keep falling flat on their faces and making themselves look worse and worse - a day after racial tensions spark at Fenway and make national news. You don't think a black player having peanuts and N-bombs thrown at him was sufficient "payback?" That's where all of this needed to end.
This tells me that Farrell is out of touch and a bit of a dope. I'm embarrassed to be rooting for the Sox through all of this because they're looking like a bunch of paranoid assholes that can't even get out of their own way. They're also lacking any self-awareness, as an organization and fan base, after throwing behind a guy's head and treating a player as something than less than human because of his skin color. Again, the Jones stuff should have been the end of all of this.
I 100% back the O's here. Sox need to fucking cool it.
This is why people hate Boston fans. Right here.Logical fallacies in this post: ad hominem; red herring; non sequitor; straw man; card stacking; either/or; begging the question; hasty generalization. And multiple examples of many of these, too.
Well done!
Nah, throwing at Machado and his "I'm so innocent and they're trying to kill me!" bullshit is where it's at. If they could throw at Showalter, I'm sure he'd get his, too. I'm done with people defending the slide into Pedroia. And I do not care if Pedey clears Machado of all wrongdoing. The man slid dangerously late and spikes up into a defender who was essentially defenseless. Machado could see that. He's a former middle infielder, he knows without a shadow of doubt that that slide was dangerous. Maybe he wasn't trying to hurt Pedroia, fine, ok - but he still decided to slide in a dangerous way and it did injure Pedroia. How is that any different than Barnes making a decision to throw one at him later, even though no one is trying to injure him, and it gets away and accidentally does injure him? (Which, of course did not even happen. Machado is bitching and moaning like he's been hit with 15 fastballs in 15 days in the same spot - but he has thus not actually been hit). Yes, making a mistake at the head could conceivably kill him. It's a bad mistake to make, which is why Barnes was suspended and did not appeal, even though he did not hit Machado. But sliding like that into a position player at the bag, absolutely could end a season or career. It's also a bad mistake to make. So you do it, you get thrown at. You wear yours (or, you know, don't actually wear yours, but act like you have worn it) and it's done. Machado pissing and moaning and cursing to the press like he's the most wronged player ever to don a uniform is ridiculous, and it's really, really hard not to want to throw at him again because of that. I'd bet he keeps getting thrown at by the Sox all year because he has shown zero respect to the "unwritten rules" ands thus to the Sox, starting with Pedroia, throughout this situation, and whether we agree or not, guys don't like that. Mangers don't like that. And they way they think he'll eventually learn to shut up and take his medicine when it is warranted is to keep giving him the medicine.I just wish Sale picked a different target. Protecting Mookie was appropriate imo, and Sale doing it is fine, great even, but it comes off as an extension of the bad slide when it maybe feels more 1 for 1 if he plunks Trumbo or Davis.
My point about the Jones situation is it should have *ended it.* If it's the "major issue" you admit we're struggling with as a society (Boston, more than many other northern cities, it seems), then on-field "grudges" should have gone to the back burner, or dropped altogether.I actually said both teams are hypocrites. I think they are both being stupid macho idiots who are continuing to try and one up each other. It's stupid. I am no way are "protecting the laundry. Here is my post for reference.
You then brought in the Jones situation which is ridiculous. One is a major issue that we are still currently struggling with in society. The other is about people sliding and throwing baseball's at each other. It's cheap. They have nothing to do with each other. If you have to bring in the Jones incident to try and prove your point then your point fucking sucks.
This is the kind of stuff that lead to you know who winning the you know what. The players, coaches on the Sox justifiably feel no responsibility or connection to the racism in the stands. Explain to me where JBJ, Mookie, Chris Young, Hanley, etc need to step up take responsibility for a nutjob in the stands. In the twisted logic of collective identity responsibility I am sure some people could say if they did not respond that they almost killed the guy when a white player got hurt, but when a black player, even though he is the best player on the team, got hit they did nothing.My point about the Jones treatment is the Sox, as an organization, needed to take a step back and see the big picture. They're being associated with fans that are hurling fucking racist shit at black players on the opposing team (in 2017!) and their next move *that they know will make headlines* is to try and hit a player - that they nearly decapitated a week or so earlier and a guy that never meant to hurt anyone in the first place - a second time?!
Stay classy, Sox. And if you're a fan bending over backwards to protect the laundry, you stay classy, too.
Edit: deleted shitpost. Mea culpa.My point about the Jones treatment is the Sox, as an organization, needed to take a step back and see the big picture. They're being associated with fans that are hurling fucking racist shit at black players on the opposing team (in 2017!) and their next move *that they know will make headlines* is to try and hit a player - that they nearly decapitated a week or so earlier and a guy that never meant to hurt anyone in the first place - a second time?!
Stay classy, Sox. And if you're a fan bending over backwards to protect the laundry, you stay classy, too.
Argue his points or ignore him. This isn't how to respond on the main board.Go away, troll.
Yes. I apologize. Regretted it as soon as I wrote it.Argue his points or ignore him. This isn't how to respond on the main board.
"The simplest answer is usually the correct one". (Stated differently, the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.)FWIW, my take on the curveball hbp last night. First off Torre got involved and teams were warned prior to game, which means pitchers knew they'd get tossed for a hbp. It's different from Sale's attempt at Machado b/c teams weren't on notice the night before and warnings were issued after that pitch. So while Sale threw 98 trying to hit Machado, he knew he wasn't getting run if he hit him. Gausman was on notice, so he knew. What do you do in that situation if you still want to retaliate and you know you'll get run? You throw a curveball and say it slipped. There have been many times pitchers who received warnings threw a CB and weren't ejected. But Torre set the tone before the game and there wasn't any discretion on determining intent. He hit him, he was gone, and IMO he did it on purpose. Sets the post game comments up perfectly. "But, but, but, it was a 77 mph curveball...if I was trying to hit him, I wouldn't do it with a curveball." The answer to that is yes you would if you were trying to stay in the game after being warned.
Anyway I hope this shit is over for now.
Not targeting you, LG, but your comment brings this up...Crying "player safety" when writing about these little feuds is a way for baseball writers to get all moralistic and make this into a bigger issue than it is. In the era since players have been wearing actual helmets (not the little helmet-hats they wore when Tony C got beaned), how many players have been seriously injured by the thousands of HBP that have occurred?I know there's lots of grousing that the players "should have been allowed to handle this on their own". But the reality is that they've had multiple games to "handle this on their own", and about the only thing the two teams showed was their ability to continue the escalation.
I have no problem with Manfred getting involved and Gausmann getting tossed last night. I'd feel the same way if Pomeranz got tossed for a hit-batsmen, intentional or not. Sometimes player safety trumps the sanctity of Cafardo's "unwritten rules".
How do you define "serious?" Does Nomar's wrist injury count?n the era since players have been wearing actual helmets (not the little helmet-hats they wore when Tony C got beaned), how many players have been seriously injured by the thousands of HBP that have occurred?
When you post a video that shows you standing in for a 98 mph splitter coming at you head high, I'll sign on. Until then, I can't imagine anything more dangerous, I I really don't care about comparing mortality statistics today against the bad old days with Sal Maglie and Don Drysdale playing the edge. And I very much include Barnes in that, too. My understanding is that a ball thrown slightly behind the batter's head can be lethal, because - as others have pointed out - the instinctive tendency to back up.Not targeting you, LG, but your comment brings this up...Crying "player safety" when writing about these little feuds is a way for baseball writers to get all moralistic and make this into a bigger issue than it is. In the era since players have been wearing actual helmets (not the little helmet-hats they wore when Tony C got beaned), how many players have been seriously injured by the thousands of HBP that have occurred?
Slides like Machado's the other day are much more of a player safety concern than throwing at someone as part of a beanball war.
And even if you accept that (which I understand you don't) isn't another one of the unwritten rules that it's acceptable to punish players for reckless behavior? If you're a pitcher and you don't have good control and throw inside and drill a guy or two, someone on your team is getting drilled to send a message - don't throw inside if you are wild. Same thing here with Machado, perhaps - regardless of whether it was intentional or not, Sox players (particularly Barnes) probably felt it was reckless. Add to that the fact that Pedroia got hurt, and that Manny didn't show any remorse for the act, just the consequences. So Barnes sent a message - slide like that and there will be retaliation. That message shouldn't have been sent up around Manny's head, of course, but just because a player didn't intentionally try to hurt someone doesn't mean all is forgiven in baseball.Machado's slide? Clearly unintentional because he said it was.
That curveball reminded me of the Sam Rothstein line in Casino when the slots hit back to back."The simplest answer is usually the correct one". (Stated differently, the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.)
William of Ockham, circa 1300
Ace Rothstein: Three fuckin' jackpots in 20 minutes? Why didn't you pull the machines? Why didn't you call me?
Don Ward: Well, it happened so quick, 3 guys won; I didn't have a chance...
Ace Rothstein: [interrupts] You didn't see the scam? You didn't see what was going on?
Don Ward: Well, there's no way to determine that...
Ace Rothstein: Yes there is! An infallible way, they won!
That might be your understanding, but it's never actually happened, despite lots of balls being thrown at and behind people's heads. The one scary beanball I can remember in my lifetime as a fan is Dicky Thon, and I don't even remember if that was an intentional one (I think not?).When you post a video that shows you standing in for a 98 mph splitter coming at you head high, I'll sign on. Until then, I can't imagine anything more dangerous, I I really don't care about comparing mortality statistics today against the bad old days with Sal Maglie and Don Drysdale playing the edge. And I very much include Barnes in that, too. My understanding is that a ball thrown slightly behind the batter's head can be lethal, because - as others have pointed out - the instinctive tendency to back up.
I was shocked that Hart wasn't tossed. IMO, that pitch was much worse than Barnes' toss behind Machado's head - literally almost taking Benintendi's head off. And as I recall, at that point in the game both teams had been warned, yet there was silence after that pitch. Strange stuff.or Hart maims Benintendi by hitting him in the head "by mistake" who really cares. .
Video hereI was shocked that Hart wasn't tossed. IMO, that pitch was much worse than Barnes' toss behind Machado's head - literally almost taking Benintendi's head off. And as I recall, at that point in the game both teams had been warned, yet there was silence after that pitch. Strange stuff.
Video here
://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/2z905.mp4?token=1494985471_41207c2cfc0f3b9d5f2b4b6a685a1a8e2c2f24ef
Agreed. and instead had Benintendi charged the mound, both would have faced discipline. Because JF didn't come running out of the dugout screaming, the O's get a pass.I was shocked that Hart wasn't tossed. IMO, that pitch was much worse than Barnes' toss behind Machado's head - literally almost taking Benintendi's head off. And as I recall, at that point in the game both teams had been warned, yet there was silence after that pitch. Strange stuff.
I do, and commented on it at the time. I think it goes back to Buck.Something else has been bugging me re. this whole mess. The Saturday game after Pedroia got hurt, Gentry of the 0s slid late and hard into Hernandez at second with spikes up and got him pretty good. That has been all but forgotten. But looking back it sticks out in my mind and makes me question if that was intentional.
Does anyone else remember that play? Am I reading too much into it? (Genuinely want to know)
Paul Blair, Paul Schaal, Doug Griffin.That might be your understanding, but it's never actually happened, despite lots of balls being thrown at and behind people's heads. The one scary beanball I can remember in my lifetime as a fan is Dicky Thon, and I don't even remember if that was an intentional one (I think not?).
I'm not defending throwing at someone's head, because you can accomplish the silly goals you're trying to accomplish in these cases by hitting someone in the thigh. But people are acting like Matt Barnes or Dylan Bundy are borderline attempting murders, which is a bit overblown.
The most recent of these was 43 years ago. Since the newer-type helmets with earflaps were required, I can't think of a single instance where someone was thrown at and seriously injured.Paul Blair, Paul Schaal, Doug Griffin.
Thank god & material sciences as well.The most recent of these was 43 years ago. Since the newer-type helmets with earflaps were required, I can't think of a single instance where someone was thrown at and seriously injured.
Ellis Valentine had his face shattered in '81 or '82. Brilliant RF for the Expos, he was never the same. What a talent, a sheer joy to watch, one of the 2 or 3 best OF arms I have ever seen. Was never the same.The most recent of these was 43 years ago. Since the newer-type helmets with earflaps were required, I can't think of a single instance where someone was thrown at and seriously injured.
Jason Heyward? Giancarlo Stanton? Kirby Puckett?The most recent of these was 43 years ago. Since the newer-type helmets with earflaps were required, I can't think of a single instance where someone was thrown at and seriously injured.
But he made a heckuva websiteDickie Thon Astros against Mets Mike Torrez pitching...Thon was never the same player.
Was it the beanball or the later nerve/wrist/hip injuries that derailed him permanently? He OPS'd .950 after returning from the beanball until the other injuries ended his season.Ellis Valentine had his face shattered in '81 or '82. Brilliant RF for the Expos, he was never the same. What a talent, a sheer joy to watch, one of the 2 or 3 best OF arms I have ever seen. Was never the same.
Cocaine was a big factor for EV. He made some ridiculous throws.Was it the beanball or the later nerve/wrist/hip injuries that derailed him permanently? He OPS'd .950 after returning from the beanball until the other injuries ended his season.