Agree. The more I think about it, there is additional value steering JG out of conference. Which became of some importance once they realized they could not resign him.
Jimmy G to 49ers for 2nd round pick
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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Sorta makes sense if JG dashes Brady’s dream of retiring a 49er once Belichick ceases to find a use for him.
If this is the best deal they were getting, why not keep him for 8 games in case something happens with Brady?
Because if something happens with Brady they're not winning the Super Bowl. As currently constituted, most people don't feel SUPER confident about this roster winning the SB with Brady. Without him... hard pass. So if you can get a second/almost first round pick out of it and at the end of the day you're really no worse off... why not?
I think that one happened just prior to the season starting (regular season at least) but yes that's a good one to add and also very shocking.
The worst part of this is that I'm kinda busy but will feel compelled to check these threads every 5 minutes from now till the deadline.
Exactly. With this roster, they're not going anywhere regardless of backup QB. With the AFC as wide open as it is, if they can acquire a player or two at spots of need they can win another Super Bowl.
there are very few players who would merit the 2nd alone, and even fewer who would be available in trade. now we're throwing in butler? this sounds ridiculous
And watching Siemian throw away tonight's game at KC, I want JG nowhere near Denver next season, or Pittsburgh if Ben hangs them up.
Pats lost control over JG's future when they could not extend him, and given all of the holes on this team, any threat to tag him was not credible.
To say nothing of the implicit vote of confidence in Brady going forward—an object of some discussion around here if I’m not mistaken.
No no, I meant the first 8 games. There was value in having him around in case, so why not wait to make the trade now if there wasn’t substantially more value offered in the offseason.
Maybe we’re all confused here. I took his meaning of “the offseason” to mean 2017, maybe he meant 2018. Issue of course being they’d need to tag him and his value would decrease.
I hear you. I couldn't decide whether to quote your post in agreement or quote the one to which you responded ("special teams linebacker"), so I decided to confuse everyone.
Last year's special teams linebacker mid-season pickup is now a pretty key cog in the defense. The three SoSH posters who had a legit opinion on Van Noy before that trade probably were as confused as anyone. We never know shit.
Three years ago, I'd be asking if Kraft needed to start drug-testing the F.O. after a move like this. Now I shake my head briefly and get in line with the other sheep. IBWT.
Spectacular take --
Jason WhitlockVerified account @WhitlockJason 2h2 hours ago
Kaepernick is the perfect fit for New England. Fits the culture, great pocket passer, supported Trump by not voting. #KapToNewEngland
Jason WhitlockVerified account @WhitlockJason 2h2 hours ago
Kaepernick is the perfect fit for New England. Fits the culture, great pocket passer, supported Trump by not voting. #KapToNewEngland
I think it’s a second account mostly used to rant about libruls. Same schtick on the main board.
This is a gamble worth taking for SF but what is stopping JG from going to the highest bidder/better fit in six months? Washington, Cleveland, Jax, Buffalo, Miami, Arizona, Denver come to mind without looking at salary caps.
Or...He signs with the Pats and BB shops TB12 for a first?
Or...He signs with the Pats and BB shops TB12 for a first?
BB is late to the punch, the Phillies already signed Gabe Kapler.
In all seriousness, however good or bad Hoyer and Kaepernick played in the recent past, I'd be confident the Pats would figure out a way to get more out of them if they needed to play. That said, Hoyer makes way more sense for the rest of 2017, since he's more knowledgeable of the playbook and has actually been on a roster this season . However, Kaepernick would be in the mix for 2018 backup if no one signs him as a starter; I think, if he had a whole off-season with the team, Kaep's ceiling is higher than Hoyer's, and long term he's a couple years younger than Hoyer if Brady only has two more seasons. They'll probably draft a QB too.
There is one person bringing politics into this discussion and that is you, Mannygirl. Those wanting to sign Kaep are suggesting it from a pure football perspective, nothing more. Agree or disagree on that and leave the kneeling/Trump stuff out of it.
Thanks.
Thanks.
It's not clear to me either. I'm just going off the rampant speculation about a 1st rounder and using a 1st as a hypothetical. The 2nd rounder (particularly where this may fall) and the 8 games of insurance (I mentioned this in my post) are great value I think - even if they were offered a 1st in the offseason.
I'm not sure yet if the Niners have assurances they'll be able to sign JG. I imagine that there are mechanisms in place, but if there aren't, a 2nd rounder is a huge haul. It would explain why the Browns (who would have a very tough sell) didn't ante up.
I’m only halfway through reading the thread, trying to catch up after seeing it on the scroll at work and getting home to try to catch up.
Initial thought was ‘holy shit, whoa!’. But that was purely based on the timing. I was convinced they would move him before the previous draft and was surprised they didn’t, but seems like some of the rumored deals were (unsurprisingly) bullshit rumors.
We’ve all danced around this situation for a while now and some of us have maintained certain viewpoints. I think the following were somewhat unarguable, but regardless...they seem much more so today.
- they were never going into 2018 with both guys. They weren’t going to franchise JG and pay him twice what TB makes. It wasn’t happening. They don’t manage the cap like that.
- despite trade rumors, it makes more sense to keep the franchise tag open for Butler. This has only been made more evident by the play of Gilmore so far.
- the reported deals offered were likely smoke.
- Brady has no intentions of retiring anytime soon, not in any reasonable timeframe to consider JG his successor, at least.
- kraft would never trade Brady. That’s the line in the sand for him with BB and player moves. If BB were being scrupulous BB, get rid of everyone a year too early before a year too late, and he truly thought JG was the future, this wouldn’t have happened. It happening tells us that TB12 is the exception to the rule. He’s considered a son, he’s a top 3 NFL player of all time and he built this dynasty. He writes his own ticket. The people that thought they would trade him were laughably naive. I especially liked the idea of him going to play in Jax. That one was great.
- BB will be heading out on the TB bandwagon. There’s a reason Patricia and McDaniels have stuck around. There’s a reason he’s moved into gfin mode. There’s a reason he made a trade like this. Were he planning to stick around, moves would have been made to try to find a way to extend it all, long term, like he always has. But his trades and signings have made a stark contrast to his MO. This should have sent up signs to a lot of people wishing he’d be here forever. Yet what was ignored was his frank statements that he wasn’t going to be Marv Levy. For some reason it was thought that he was bluffing on that one.
Honestly the biggest thing that shocks me is that he moved JG and* Brissett and leaving cupboard bare. Hoyer is a perfectly cromulent backup for the rest of the year, but I also don’t expect him to leave the franchise barren. Which means if he’s not planning on using the picking for a defensive upgrade tomorrow, it’s targeted at a future qb. Which is fine, it just seems like he’d stagger it and have moved JG earlier and kept Brissett around as a transition. But, despite the cliche, we don’t know what he does and if there’s ever a coach/GM that needs the benefit of the doubt on evaluation, it is in fact him. It doesn’t need to be reduced to a sarcastic ‘in Bb we trust’ because wtf do we know?
Initial thought was ‘holy shit, whoa!’. But that was purely based on the timing. I was convinced they would move him before the previous draft and was surprised they didn’t, but seems like some of the rumored deals were (unsurprisingly) bullshit rumors.
We’ve all danced around this situation for a while now and some of us have maintained certain viewpoints. I think the following were somewhat unarguable, but regardless...they seem much more so today.
- they were never going into 2018 with both guys. They weren’t going to franchise JG and pay him twice what TB makes. It wasn’t happening. They don’t manage the cap like that.
- despite trade rumors, it makes more sense to keep the franchise tag open for Butler. This has only been made more evident by the play of Gilmore so far.
- the reported deals offered were likely smoke.
- Brady has no intentions of retiring anytime soon, not in any reasonable timeframe to consider JG his successor, at least.
- kraft would never trade Brady. That’s the line in the sand for him with BB and player moves. If BB were being scrupulous BB, get rid of everyone a year too early before a year too late, and he truly thought JG was the future, this wouldn’t have happened. It happening tells us that TB12 is the exception to the rule. He’s considered a son, he’s a top 3 NFL player of all time and he built this dynasty. He writes his own ticket. The people that thought they would trade him were laughably naive. I especially liked the idea of him going to play in Jax. That one was great.
- BB will be heading out on the TB bandwagon. There’s a reason Patricia and McDaniels have stuck around. There’s a reason he’s moved into gfin mode. There’s a reason he made a trade like this. Were he planning to stick around, moves would have been made to try to find a way to extend it all, long term, like he always has. But his trades and signings have made a stark contrast to his MO. This should have sent up signs to a lot of people wishing he’d be here forever. Yet what was ignored was his frank statements that he wasn’t going to be Marv Levy. For some reason it was thought that he was bluffing on that one.
Honestly the biggest thing that shocks me is that he moved JG and* Brissett and leaving cupboard bare. Hoyer is a perfectly cromulent backup for the rest of the year, but I also don’t expect him to leave the franchise barren. Which means if he’s not planning on using the picking for a defensive upgrade tomorrow, it’s targeted at a future qb. Which is fine, it just seems like he’d stagger it and have moved JG earlier and kept Brissett around as a transition. But, despite the cliche, we don’t know what he does and if there’s ever a coach/GM that needs the benefit of the doubt on evaluation, it is in fact him. It doesn’t need to be reduced to a sarcastic ‘in Bb we trust’ because wtf do we know?
Well and that’s another thing. It’s not like it was 30 years ago where the 49ers could pay Steve Young crap to sit for five years until Montana got to old age. The very basic argument against it was simply there was only two reasonable avenues - trade Brady or trade JG. And the former was never going to happen. Short of career ending injury or retirement, that’s what it settled down to.
PP, thought your post was great. I cut it to the one key point nobody else has made thus far. As I think about it, the Marv Levy quip, the full GFIN mode BB has followed this season, and the trades and signings that have marked that approach are only derailed by injuries - of which there have been a truckload. To lose 2 top 5 players before the season is half over (JE and DH), and to have 2 more top 10 players injured or not panning out (Hogan, Gilmore), plus at least a couple others is a hard obstacle to overcome, and in the next 24 hours we will see what BB intends to do about it.
It truly is amazing (other posters have mentioned this obliquely) that Brady intends to play until at least age 42, and that he is apparently getting his way despite his wife Gisele going on record after SB51 that she would prefer if he retired. I know I am not a GOAT QB and don't have a supermodel wife. But I will say it anyway as I have been married for exactly as long as TB12 has been the starting QB of the Patriots - I am always amazed that anyone is able to go against their wife's wishes, especially in a game so dominated by CTE risk, and with an OL that has Brady on pace for a career high in sacks at age 40.
Edited for clarity and cliche removal.
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Yes.
Edit — and as of last week, the 49ers have more cap space going into 2018 than any other team, edging out Cleveland.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ninersnation.com/platform/amp/2017/10/23/16520388/49ers-2018-salary-cap-space-projection-straight-cash-homey
SF is taking no risk here other than JG not being worth a high second round pick.
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And a few picks after Cody Latimer, Stanley Jean-Baptiste, Bishop Sankey, ...
They drafted a dude at 62, used him for 3.5 seasons as backup, he won two games in a year they won the Super Bowl, and now they traded him for pick #34 or something. Was it the absolute optimal use of the pick? Maybe not, but that's a pretty damn good return.
In case anyone is wondering about the whole Hoyer and compensatory pick thing it seems that if he were included in the trade the Pats would have lost the 4th or 5th round pick that is expected to come their way due to Marty Bennett leaving.
I honestly don't understand how trading for a guy effects FA compensatory picks but what do I know.
Also Jimmy will be playing for SF next year. If they can't sign him long term they will franchise him. They have tons of money to throw around.
I honestly don't understand how trading for a guy effects FA compensatory picks but what do I know.
Also Jimmy will be playing for SF next year. If they can't sign him long term they will franchise him. They have tons of money to throw around.
Honestly, I thought the point that they shouldn't have drafted him was a joke. If it wasn't, if your post is necessary, I don't know where to start.
The pro and con arguments on this trade are well known.
And the con I am about to mention is also not a particularly novel point.
But I still think it bears emphasis. The thing that worries me is the drop off in the quality of the safety net behind Tom in 2017. If Tom goes down for the year, they’re almost certainly toast. But if he goes down for, say, 2-3 games, I think Jimmy would have given them a much better chance to win games than Brian Hoyer or whoever else comes in.
The obvious reply is that they had many years of Rohan Davey types behind Tom. And won lots of SBs without a real net. But it always struck me as dangerous given how important the QB position is. Yeah, they won 11 games with Cassell, so anything is possible. But in the end, Jimmy — in a small sample — looked different in kind to me, and I hate to lose the level of insurance in 2017 that he provided.
And the con I am about to mention is also not a particularly novel point.
But I still think it bears emphasis. The thing that worries me is the drop off in the quality of the safety net behind Tom in 2017. If Tom goes down for the year, they’re almost certainly toast. But if he goes down for, say, 2-3 games, I think Jimmy would have given them a much better chance to win games than Brian Hoyer or whoever else comes in.
The obvious reply is that they had many years of Rohan Davey types behind Tom. And won lots of SBs without a real net. But it always struck me as dangerous given how important the QB position is. Yeah, they won 11 games with Cassell, so anything is possible. But in the end, Jimmy — in a small sample — looked different in kind to me, and I hate to lose the level of insurance in 2017 that he provided.
On the negative side, holding on to JG for 8 games may have cost them 3 years of control of Brissett. I don't think they trade Brissett if they had traded JG in the offseason. I guess if one rates Dorsett highly that mitigates things, and maybe they didn't see Brissett as QB of the future, but he would have been a young, solid, and cheap backup. Here's hoping they hit on a QB in the draft.
After mulling this over a bit and reading some of the reactions, as well as listening to Bedard on Toucher and Rich this morning, the only thing that really doesn't make sense to me is that the Pats honestly thought there was a chance Jimmy would sign an extension to remain in NE while Brady is showing no signs of dropping off and is on record as wanting to play a bunch of years more, and that it suddenly became clear to them yesterday this wasn't going to happen. It is one thing to say they were going to ride out the year with him and then franchise him and look to trade him then, but I just can't believe that they thought he would be content to sit and waste his prime years on the bench, especially considering the putrid QB play we see around the league from week-to-week.
Who knows what the conversations were between the Pats FO and Jimmy's reps, but I can't believe they weren't clear with the Pats that Jimmy wants a chance to start and won't be happy being a backup for 3-4 more seasons of Brady, but who knows.
Who knows what the conversations were between the Pats FO and Jimmy's reps, but I can't believe they weren't clear with the Pats that Jimmy wants a chance to start and won't be happy being a backup for 3-4 more seasons of Brady, but who knows.
Maybe that was the sticking point all along and the Pats thought there was a dollar figure that could keep JG on the bench in New England, where really that number didn't ever exist.
Just not sure you can say that to Schefter and have him get it across to the public properly. Though to be honest it's a more valid point than "I think I am worth more than that..."
Just not sure you can say that to Schefter and have him get it across to the public properly. Though to be honest it's a more valid point than "I think I am worth more than that..."
You also have to factor in that they are 6-2 with 8 games left. Most years 10 wins is going to get you a wild card spot. So if Brady gets hurt mid game and then misses the next 2 games, than you likely only need your backup to squeeze out one win, assuming you think Brady will 3 of the other 5 (or maybe already has).
I think everyone agrees that the season gets tossed out the window if Brady goes down and can't return this year. But their record helps them minimize the risk of a negative season if Brady misses 2-3 games, at least in terms of getting into the playoffs. Though I'll acknowledge they are fully exposed if one of those 2-3 games is wild card weekend and/or the divisional round. There is certainly still risk here and squeezing into the playoffs as a wild card is less attractive than having playoff games at home, but it's not an open and shut season killer.
It's pretty simple, really. Unlike Montana/Young and Favre/Rodgers (and Manning/Luck for that matter), the Pats chose Brady over Garoppolo. Makes sense, given no sign of Brady slowing down and Jimmy G not the sure thing like Young and Rodgers.
But this goes back to the point made earlier--they got 8 games of insurance and still got a good deal, without the cap complications of franchising him AND trying to trade him. Whatever they thought of their chance to re-sign him, or of his willingness to sit around and get rich while keeping his looks and brain intact, I think its probable that they got those 8 games at almost no cost in terms of trade value. And they also got a chance to see which teams reallly suck to get a better handle on the value of the draft pick.
I would love to hear BB next press conference: "Well, fellas, we're not having a backup QB. We're fucked anyway if Tom goes down, so why waste the roster spot."
I was just coming here to post something similar. How does the Brissett trade make any sense if there was doubt about keeping Garoppolo?
Yeah, I agree with all of this. The trade makes sense and I get why they are doing this. I like the trade. I'm just saying the reports that they woke up yesterday and suddenly realized Jimmy was never going to sign an extension to remain as Brady's backup for potentially multiple more years don't make sense to me. Unless Jimmy was being completely dishonest with them about what he wanted, which I guess is a possibility. But presumably Jimmy is a competitive guy and it should not come as any surprise to anyone on the Pats that once Brady started tearing up the league and showing absolutely no signs of slowing down that Jimmy's preference was going to be to play out his current deal and force the Pats to franchise him and/or trade him for a chance to start.
It makes sense if the Pats never thought Brissett was going to be an acceptable long-term starting QB. I think that trade was evaluation-based.