I gave up on guessing who's done steroids about 20-some years ago when Manny Alexander got busted, and I think it's naive whenever guys like Thome and Griffey are lauded as "clean" stars. That said, I will point out that when Thome was breaking into the majors, the most used phrase in any discussion of him was "once he fills out". Early in his career he looked (and moved) like a newborn Clydesdale, which is why even as he broke in as a 3B, he was always projected as a 1B.Also, either the photography on his rookie card is incredibly flattering, or else Thome peaks at about 75 pounds heavier than where he started, but he doesn't get any of the Bagwell/Piazza treatment.
Just asking .. You don't think this "vague handicap" is warranted?So Jim Thome plays 5 years longer than Larry Walker and accrues a whopping .3 WAR in that time, yet gets 90% of the vote while Walker gets 34%? OK.
Even if you dislike WAR and are more of an "eyeballer", doesn't Walker track as a much, much better fielder and baserunner - just a better all around baseball player - than Thome?
Also, either the photography on his rookie card is incredibly flattering, or else Thome peaks at about 75 pounds heavier than where he started, but he doesn't get any of the Bagwell/Piazza treatment.
It's amazing what being a nice guy can do.
And the Coors thing fascinates me. Nolan Arenado has 148 HR. He's 26. Give him 12 more years, all in Colorado. How many more do you think he'd have to hit in those 12 years to get consideration? 400? 450? 500? Given that the voters seem to have placed some sort of vague handicap on former Rockies, it's really hard to say.
David Ortiz's road OBP is forty points lower than his home one. Shouldn't Fenway carry a similar "vague handicap?"Just asking .. You don't think this "vague handicap" is warranted?
Larry Walker career home road splits
Home .348 / .431 / .637
Road .278 / .370 / .495
It probably should ... but what does that have to do with a comparison of Jim Thome and Larry Walker?David Ortiz's road OBP is forty points lower than his home one. Shouldn't Fenway carry a similar "vague handicap?"
My point was that other HoFers/future HoFers have had big home/road splits and nobody really cares that much, but writers and fans alike hold the Colorado thing against all former Rockies (and react similarly to the possibility of acquiring active Rockies). I missed the part about Thome, I guess.It probably should ... but what does that have to do with a comparison of Jim Thome and Larry Walker?
Well .. there are hitter's parks and then there's Coors Field.My point was that other HoFers/future HoFers have had big home/road splits and nobody really cares that much, but writers and fans alike hold the Colorado thing against all former Rockies (and react similarly to the possibility of acquiring active Rockies). I missed the part about Thome, I guess.
In that "extreme pitchers park", Walker's Home/Road is .286/.363/.500 vs. .278/.350/.468, so DD does have a point that there tends to be at least a small affect for all players that needs to discount the overall effect. And in Walker's case, he should have had better road numbers than home numbers, not worse, if the park factor was as huge as you insinuated.Well .. there are hitter's parks and then there's Coors Field.
David Ortiz's home/road ops split difference is .40 .. Larry Walker's is .203! And he ran that difference up, despite playing many years in the Big Owe - a rather extreme pitchers park IIRC.
Coors field .. particularly pre-humidor .. distorted statistics like no other park before it (maybe the Baker Bowl?). Good for the writers for having a modest understanding of park effects.
But I like Larry Walker - and I think he has a marginal HOF case - based on his all around abilities. In many ways he has a similar case to Dwight Evans.
Thanks, I should have kept clicking. Man, 1 vote.Actually, the answer is Nellie Fox, who missed by 1 vote (74.7%) in his final year of eligibility in 1985. He later got in by the vet's committee, a year after Bunning.
I knew of Fox, but it was 2. Remember looking this up every season and posting it when discussing a hypothetical fan collective vote contrasted with the Rock and Roll Hall's approach, where it was asked if it would ever alter history (no). Fox got 295 votes of 297 required for the 1985 class.Thanks, I should have kept clicking. Man, 1 vote.
You should change the wiki entry on this thenI knew of Fox, but it was 2. Remember looking this up every season and posting it when discussing a hypothetical fan collective vote contrasted with the Rock and Roll Hall's approach, where it was asked if it would ever alter history (no). Fox got 295 votes of 297 required for the 1985 class.
He couldn't play the position well anyway, all metrics point to Ortiz being a pretty bad first baseman and Edgar being a pretty good third baseman.Well .. not staying healthy was exactly the reason (according to Theo) that Ortiz was the DH. He had had a checkered injury history with the Twins.
Personally, I think adjusting for park effects underrates Walker. He was unbelievable at Coors during his prime, far, far, far beyond what can be explained by merely park effects. He deserves credit for putting up video game numbers at Coors. He was great on the road, but he had some Fred Lynn-esque ability to be absolutely unbelievable at home. I have no idea why, my only guess is Walker was a hit-to-all-fields type IIRC and Coors's large outfield maybe gave him a ton of real estate to drop balls into.It's too bad there aren't any established statistical techniques to adjust for park effects.
Looks like four deserving baseball Hall of Famers got in last week. There’s one I think is tremendously deserving who didn’t get in, and he got just 37 percent of the vote, and I suppose it’s in part because this was his first year. But Omar Vizquel is a Hall of Fame baseball player. Only 42 players in the history of baseball have had more hits than Vizquel’s 2,877 (he had four more hits than Babe Ruth) … and no one would think Vizquel should go in because of his bat. He’s the best-fielding shortstop I’ve ever seen. Ozzie Smith won one more Gold Glove, 12 to 11, and I’d never denigrate Smith, because one of the best-fielding shortstops in history deserves to be in the Hall, for sure. Vizquel, to me, was a tick better in the field. He won a Gold Glove at 39. Had a career batting average 10 points higher than Smith—though their on-base percentages were almost the same. Hope Vizquel makes it.