Manny?Exactly. The Red Sox are usually smart cutting the cord early. Pedro, Ellsbury, Damon, Manny and others proved right.
The only one still up in the air is Mookie Betts.
I would have liked 2008 and 2009 WS titles.
Manny?Exactly. The Red Sox are usually smart cutting the cord early. Pedro, Ellsbury, Damon, Manny and others proved right.
The only one still up in the air is Mookie Betts.
I wish Kiké was hitting that goodThat might explain why Xander has been awful since his hot start -- down to 252/337/388 for the season.
Well, Manny got caught with roids in 2009. The Red Sox must have known something.Manny?
I would have liked 2008 and 2009 WS titles.
Sure. 252/337/388 is not terrible, especially for a SS. But of course, Kike is a FA after this year and Xander has a huge contract for 10 more seasons.I wish Kiké was hitting that good
In every sport, the batting average for cutting the cord early is not 1.000, but it still makes Ted Williams look like Sandy Leon.Exactly. The Red Sox are usually smart cutting the cord early. Pedro, Ellsbury, Damon, Manny and others proved right.
The only one still up in the air is Mookie Betts.
Not necessarily. There was... a lot going on around the time of his departure.Well, Manny got caught with roids in 2009. The Red Sox must have known something.
Bay was probably a better player than Manny by that time in his careerManny?
I would have liked 2008 and 2009 WS titles.
I disagreeBay was a better player than Manny by that time in his career
And then got popped for steroids while Bay finished 7th in mvp voting in 2009. And then the Sox smartly let him walk at the right time as well. Also ignoring the part where swapping out Bay for Manny somehow just gives them 2 more rings because reasonsI disagree
Manny put up 1232 OPS in 2008 in a pitcher’s park.
That is simply not true.Bay was probably a better player than Manny by that time in his career
Bay for the Red Sox in 2008-2009: 7.1 WARBay was probably a better player than Manny by that time in his career
Post trade 2008/2009 Manny 5.7 bwar Bay 7.1 bwarThat is simply not true.
and pushed traveling secretary Jack McCormickLet's not forget that Manny was traded because he wanted out. In the weeks before the trade, he was begging out of games because his knee hurt and he couldn't even keep straight which knee it was. Then he was magically all better once he hit L.A. and tore the cover off the ball. That trade not happening would not have resulted in a World Series title in 2008 or 2009.
Yeah, that’s the one for me. Otherwise everything else was worth putting up with.and pushed traveling secretary Jack McCormick
https://www.boston.com/sports/extra-bases/2008/06/30/manny_ramirez_w/
So ignore the other parts of those seasons? They counted too.Bay for the Red Sox in 2008-2009: 7.1 WAR
Ramirez for the Dodgers in 2008-2009: 5.7 WAR
Credit where credit's due Manny did go on a tear after he was traded. FWIW (maybe not much) he played 25 games in LA and 15 of those within the division.I disagree
Manny put up 1232 OPS in 2008 in a pitcher’s park.
They were both worth 2.5 bwar in 2008 at the time of the tradeSo ignore the other parts of those seasons? They counted too.
Ramirez had 6.3 bWAR in his 2 seasons with the Dodgers from trade deadline '08 to late August '10 when they waived him & made like $50m (I think?).So ignore the other parts of those seasons? They counted too.
never has a greater sacrilege ever been saidBay was probably a better player than Manny by that time in his career
The Sox didn't exactly pull the plug on Damon. The Yankees offered him a bit more (don't remember the number exactly, but it seems to me is was in the range of $1 - $3 million), and he jumped ship. I think he pulled a similar stunt on KC when signing with the Sox in the first placeExactly. The Red Sox are usually smart cutting the cord early. Pedro, Ellsbury, Damon, Manny and others proved right.
The only one still up in the air is Mookie Betts.
That was Oakland, where he played for one year (it's in the beginning of the Moneyball movie too).The Sox didn't exactly pull the plug on Damon. The Yankees offered him a bit more (don't remember the number exactly, but it seems to me is was in the range of $1 - $3 million), and he jumped ship. I think he pulled a similar stunt on KC when signing with the Sox in the first place
There's a better argument for a ring in 2008 than there is for 2009. If we are citing MVP voting,, Manny finished 4th in MVP voting in 2008. Ed- but the trade was logical, probablyAnd then got popped for steroids while Bay finished 7th in mvp voting in 2009. And then the Sox smartly let him walk at the right time as well. Also ignoring the part where swapping out Bay for Manny somehow just gives them 2 more rings because reasons
There 100% was an option, for 2009 and 2010. It was the existence of those options that prompted Manny to effectively shoot his way out of town. He'd signed with Boras and Boras wanted a cut, which he wasn't going to get if the Sox picked up the options. So part of the trade, since Manny had 10/5 rights, was the Dodgers agreeing to turn down the options and let him be a free agent following the 2008 season.There is no universe where the Red Sox would have had Manny in 2009. His contract was up in 2008 and he never would have re-signed. There may be an option that I'm forgetting, but I doubt the Sox would have wanted him back after how '08 played out.
Sometimes I forget just how much I abhor Scott Boras. I should stop doing that.There 100% was an option, for 2009 and 2010. It was the existence of those options that prompted Manny to effectively shoot his way out of town. He'd signed with Boras and Boras wanted a cut, which he wasn't going to get if the Sox picked up the options. So part of the trade, since Manny had 10/5 rights, was the Dodgers agreeing to turn down the options and let him be a free agent following the 2008 season.
I miss more than just Manny. I miss the days of more consistent year to year personnel and less roster turnover. Of being invested in the players and the team on a deeper level over a longer period of time. Short term, year to year contracts may make good business, and even baseball, sense. But there is nothing engaging about it.All I have to say is: I miss prime Manny. Guy was super fun to watch, and was one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Over 8 seasons, he gave Boston this:
274 hr, 868 rbi, .312/.411/.588/.999, 155 ops+, 33.2 bWAR, 8 all-star appearances, and 2 World Series championships
That's how you operate when you have nothing to elevate through the ranks. Things are looking more hopefulI miss more than just Manny. I miss the days of more consistent year to year personnel and less roster turnover. Of being invested in the players and the team on a deeper level over a longer period of time. Short term, year to year contracts may make good business, and even baseball, sense. But there is nothing engaging about it.
Get off my lawn?!
20 years from now when Mayer ends his Hall of Fame career having only been a Red Sox, this statement will seem prophetic.That's how you operate when you have nothing to elevate through the ranks. Things are looking more hopeful
Manny, Pedro, Ortiz, Wakefield, and Varitek all came from other organizations. Keeping your own drafted and IFA players isn't the only way to build a team with guys who stick around for more than a year or two.That's how you operate when you have nothing to elevate through the ranks. Things are looking more hopeful
All I have to say is: I miss prime Manny. Guy was super fun to watch, and was one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Over 8 seasons, he gave Boston this:
274 hr, 868 rbi, .312/.411/.588/.999, 155 ops+, 33.2 bWAR, 8 all-star appearances, and 2 World Series championships
Yeah, like I said that's how you operate when you have nothing to elevateManny, Pedro, Ortiz, Wakefield, and Varitek all came from other organizations. Keeping your own drafted and IFA players isn't the only way to build a team with guys who stick around for more than a year or two.
Wait, what?!? I've always loved this play, but I did not remember that Kevin Millar was the batter! You can't make this stuff up!!View attachment 65716
Probably the greatest moment in baseball history.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md8j_Sq5Nbs
The exclamation point limits do not apply in discussing this play.Wait, what?!? I've always loved this play, but I did not remember that Kevin Millar was the batter! You can't make this stuff up!!
(Okay, I've already used my quota of exclamation points for June.)
Yeah, I forgot he was in Oakland; didn't bother to look it up. I thought Damon took the heat from Sox fans on that one, because he sold us out for pennies on the dollar. In any case, I think we just have different perspectives on this one.That was Oakland, where he played for one year (it's in the beginning of the Moneyball movie too).
Several players were offered more either in years or money and the Sox let them walk. Damon to the Yankees. Pedro to the Mets. And back on topic Xander to the Padres.
Manny was different because he wanted out and it was well rumored that Boras was manipulating things because he would not get any comissions if his two extensions were picked up.
Not for X it isn't.Back to Xander. The Padres offered way too much for him. It's really too bad he chose Boras as his agent, or the Sox might(?) have been able to do a reasonable extension.
What do you mean "pennies on the dollar"? Damon had three main suitors in free agency: Sox, Yankees, Dodgers. The Dodgers went with Kenny Lofton instead. The Yankees gave Damon a fourth year and a guarantee that he'd be the starting center fielder. Justifiably, the Sox were not willing to give a fourth year with Ellsbury waiting in the wings. Like most free agents, he took the best deal.Yeah, I forgot he was in Oakland; didn't⁷ bother to look it up. I thought Damon took the heat from Sox fans on that one, because he sold us out for pennies on the dollar. In any case, I think we just have different perspectives on this one.
Back to Xander. The Padres offered way too much for him. It's really too bad he chose Boras as his agent, or the Sox might(?) have been able to do a reasonable extension.
So, in your opinion, then, did the Sox let Damon walk, or did they simply make a rational business decision? Do you believe that there's a difference between the two?What do you mean "pennies on the dollar"? Damon had three main suitors in free agency: Sox, Yankees, Dodgers. The Dodgers went with Kenny Lofton instead. The Yankees gave Damon a fourth year and a guarantee that he'd be the starting center fielder. Justifiably, the Sox were not willing to give a fourth year with Ellsbury waiting in the wings. Like most free agents, he took the best deal.
I'm not sure how that's "selling out for pennies on the dollar".
Had to reply to this one given the quote in my signature. IIRC the anger towards Damon came because of where he signed, and what he had stated publicly before signing there. (see below)What do you mean "pennies on the dollar"? Damon had three main suitors in free agency: Sox, Yankees, Dodgers. The Dodgers went with Kenny Lofton instead. The Yankees gave Damon a fourth year and a guarantee that he'd be the starting center fielder. Justifiably, the Sox were not willing to give a fourth year with Ellsbury waiting in the wings. Like most free agents, he took the best deal.
I'm not sure how that's "selling out for pennies on the dollar".
When it comes to free agents, teams don't "let players walk". Players sign wherever they choose.So, in your opinion, then, did the Sox let Damon walk, or did they simply make a rational business decision? Do you believe that there's a difference between the two?
I don’t necessarily miss what you’re describing, but what I do miss is the days when I could just be excited about getting a new player - like I was when they signed Manny - instead of immediately switching into hyper-analytical mode, which always leads to this “yeah, but look at all those years and dollars!!!” mindset.I miss more than just Manny. I miss the days of more consistent year to year personnel and less roster turnover. Of being invested in the players and the team on a deeper level over a longer period of time. Short term, year to year contracts may make good business, and even baseball, sense. But there is nothing engaging about it.
Get off my lawn?!
Cross posting as well: did you know they would be so good and Rich Hill wouldn’t be?Cross posting
Just wanted to point out that Wacha and Eovaldi are a combined 14-4, 2.67 ERA in 148.1 IP over 24 starts (nearly 6.1 IP per start).
Seems to me the 2023 Red Sox might be pretty good if they had that kind of performance at the top of the rotation.
Rich Hill is 43. Eovaldi is 33 and Wacha is 32.Cross posting as well: did you know they would be so good and Rich Hill wouldn’t be?
If you predicted those two would still be good I will be your biggest supporter here for future predictions.Rich Hill is 43. Eovaldi is 33 and Wacha is 32.