I can bet most of you will be quite surprised at the worst one, when you click on it.
View: https://twitter.com/bmoretalks_ball/status/1730283783348277426
View: https://twitter.com/bmoretalks_ball/status/1730283783348277426
2023-2024 General NBA Season Thread
- Thread starter BigSoxFan
- Start date
Wow---that's a heck of a stat. And Jordan Poole can't be blamed for it anymore
That same group of 5 (Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Green/Looney) were one of the best starting lineups in the league last year, at +24.3 per 100. It's an absolutely shocking flip.
GSW is probably too small and now also too unathletic to compensate for it.
GSW had a rim frequency of 26.5% in 2021-2022. 23.5% in 2022-2023. So far this season? 19.1%
Steph Curry had a rim frequency of 16.4% in 2021-2022. 14.9% in 2022-2023. So far this season? 8.5%
Draymond Green had a defensive rebound % on field goals of 19.3% in 2021-2022. 17.7% in 2022-2023. So far this season? 14.35%
Note that these are stylistic/rebounding stats that tend to stabilize earlier in a season than shooting percentages.
GSW had a rim frequency of 26.5% in 2021-2022. 23.5% in 2022-2023. So far this season? 19.1%
Steph Curry had a rim frequency of 16.4% in 2021-2022. 14.9% in 2022-2023. So far this season? 8.5%
Draymond Green had a defensive rebound % on field goals of 19.3% in 2021-2022. 17.7% in 2022-2023. So far this season? 14.35%
Note that these are stylistic/rebounding stats that tend to stabilize earlier in a season than shooting percentages.
This is the first I'm hearing of this. Any smoke?
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39014978/report-maverick-carter-lebron-james-manager-used-illegal-bookmaker
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39014978/report-maverick-carter-lebron-james-manager-used-illegal-bookmaker
Zero smoke. Not illegal, didn't violate NBA rules as LeBron's business manager. Like Giddey's situation this will go away quickly.
Ha. Bron has his mitts all over that future Vegas franchise. Mav will have to be pristine.
On another note what's your read on Jaime Jaquez Jr? looks like he had a big night
I just realized the Clippers have 4 possible Hall of a famers on their roster (and may still miss the playoffs since 3 of them are way past their peak)
Love him. He's a "professional scorer" but what I like most is that he thinks the game two steps ahead of even the veterans already.
Good win by the Bulls. What an exciting finish. Bucks took the lead in the closing minutes of regulation. Caruso drains a three at the buzzer to bring it to OT. The Bulls then went on a sick run, outscoring the Bucks 14-7 in OT. Caruso was an absolute pest to Giannis and his friends.
For such a great shooter Kawhi has very unconventional (and ugly if you ask me) form. I’m always surprised when it goes in because just looks off coming out of his hand.
Harden/George/Kawhi with Mann and Zubac have the 2nd best net rating of any 5 man lineup. I wouldn't write them off just yet.
The Utah Jazz 9 man lineup tonight. These are some great fucking names in here. Top notch
Simone Fontecchio
John Collins
Omer Yurtseven
Ochai Agbaji
Keyonte George
Collin Sexton
Talen Horton-Tucker
Luka Samanic
Kelly Olynyk
Simone Fontecchio
John Collins
Omer Yurtseven
Ochai Agbaji
Keyonte George
Collin Sexton
Talen Horton-Tucker
Luka Samanic
Kelly Olynyk
Was watching that. The Bulls were notably without both Derozan and Lavine, but the way those two play (empty calories on their best days) it wasn't a huge loss. The Bucks record is fine (on pace for 56 wins), but they're not winning games by a lot (hard to figure exactly, but with their net rating they should finish with 47/48 wins). They are clearly still adjusting to Lillard (it's a bigger adjustment for them than the Boston because Smart/Horford to Holiday/Porzingis is really an all-around improvement, while going from Holiday to Lillard is good in some ways and bad in others), but there's real concern here. Maybe it's a reasonable plan to just play everything close and assume Lillard will carry you in crunch time, but they've been a weird fit so far.
It's funny because when I read the box score, I at least two times had to read a name again and be like "who? what?"
Definitely a good win for the Bulls. They did not have DeRozan or LaVine tonight. Maybe they were playing angry after the hack-a-Drummond incident in Boston.
I love how this team has come together over the last couple weeks. Starting lineup is loaded, bench is loaded....they are going to be a nightmare for whoever is playing them from here on out.
Draymond should be suspended 10 games based on principle of his personality and fuckery. He single handedly makes any game he's in unwatchable when he starts on his bullshit
+1. It's like people saying if you want to see a guy who always does the right thing, watch Derrick White on offense even when he doesn't have the ball. If you want a guy who always does the shitty thing, watch Green on defense, even off ball.
I think it's a little early for this. 5-8 since Harden joined the team, and two of those wins were against the Spurs (who just lost their 13th straight game). The bigger problem to me isn't the Harden/Westbrook fit, it's that Kawhi hasn't looked like a guy capable of being the best player on a title team. Prior to this year, Kawhi averaged 25/7/5 with a TS% of .607 as a Clipper. He's been a top 10 player when healthy, but he hasn't been yet this year, for whatever reason (22/6/3 with a TS% of .575). Maybe it's a small sample size, maybe he's dealing with nagging injury, or maybe this is just who he is now because of age and the cumulative impact of so many injuries.
Or maybe he's tired. He's now played 18 straight regular season games, breaking his previous streak with the Clippers of 15 straight back in 2020 (and that comes with a mountain of salt because the streak began in February pre-covid and continued into August in the bubble). He hasn't played this many straight games since the 16/17 season when he played 31 straight to start the year (and that was 7 years and countless leg injuries ago). Regardless of the reason, this doesn't work if both he and George aren't top 15 players,
And even if Harden/Westbrook figure out their roles, and even if George/Kawhi both play at an all-NBA level, they still need to be healthy in the Spring. HOF or not, this is the least reliable team with a realistic title shot, and it's not close. The only guy I'm positive will be available in 5 months will be Westbrook, so I guess there's that.
In addition to all this, the Clips aren't big, and they aren't fast, and they aren't young. They can win regular season games like vs. SAC by virtue of two of their HOF'ers getting hot, but I can''t see this working in the postseason landscape of today's NBA.
Or....after the 0-6 start figuring things out including a final possession loss in Denver they are 5-2 even with last nights schedule loss that they still fought to the wire. I won't go into greater detail as I've written chapters on this team already in Silver Dollar including the strides they were making together DURING those losses but yeah the 5-8 is just a bit misleading.
Last edited:
Holy crap, going through the box score and see that Miami had 45(!) FT attempts last night, including an 18-20 night from Jimmy. Sure enough I look up at the Pacers and they had THREE guys foul out: HIeld, Nesmith and Nembhard. And the Pacers actually took 32 FTs themselves. Time of game is not included in the boxscore like MLB, but man that must have draaaaggged.
They're better than 5-8 sounds, but there's a lot of daylight between "they're better than a team on pace to win 32 games" and "they're a nightmare for opponents." Public perception of their failures has probably gone overboard (hence why they're good to gamble on), but I don't see any reason yet to think this team resembles a contender. And even if they were 13-0 since the Harden acquisition, we'd just be waiting for the other shoe to drop w/regard to injuries.
For the life of me I haven't understood the optimism surrounding this team since preseason last year (obviously not the case at the moment), adding an aging headcase with a long and rich history of playoff failures just doesn't move the needle for me at all. I get why the Clippers did it and I understand the upside here, it doesn't mean we don't have to pretend like there aren't 10 ways this can go wrong in a loaded west.
Last edited:
I could see Jaime Jaquez Jr being a fan favorite with that strong Latino Miami audience. Radio guys pandering to the locals wouldn't be a first.
Not bad for a guy who couldn't even retain 1st round fake-trade status a month after draft day
Jaquez is good, for a rookie. But he is almost 23 years old, and you kind of expect those rookies to be good.
20 games in and all, but I get Miami's enthusiasm (after a summer with egg on their face), although Dame vs JJJ is crazy-town
Jaquez is a great fit for the Heat, who let Strus walk away for a 2nd (& Vincent for no return). Using their minutes for Jaime, JRich, Duncan has worked out swimmingly.
Still think MIA should make some sort of play for Brogdon (TL has no trade value for a contender now),
but PDX isn't getting Jaime Jaquez.
1. It's a sample of 102 minutes.
2. As Kliq alludes to, Wiggins was an anvil to start the season. LeBron busted his ribs in last year's playoffs (right as he was trying to work his way into game shape following his extended "family absence") which apparently hampered his ability to work out in the offseason; and recent reports suggest some in the Warriors organization were frustrated by his lack of conditioning coming into camp. He had finally started to bear some resemblance to his '22 playoff self the last couple games, but then slammed in his finger in a car door and missed the last game v LAC. On the bright side, Moody, Kuminga and Podziemski all looked great in his absence.
3. Klay was also bad to start the season, despite reportedly putting in the offseason work that Wiggs did not (and that Klay had not the season prior). But even peak Klay was notorious for starting seasons slowly; and he's been starting to show signs of life lately, too. For the first 15 games or so, though, the Warriors likely had the two worst two starting wings in the league — two guys who were not rebounding, not playing great D, not making plays for others, and bricking shots left and right.
4. They can still "blame Poole" for being terrible last season, especially in light of his being even more terrible this season given free rein on the Wizards. The difference between him and 20 y.o. Podziemski as a rebounder, defender, decision-maker, and winning-play maker is already pretty shocking.
5. The "best five-man-unit" stat from last season was also a bit of small sample theater — just 300 total minutes. Dray + Loon alone is a problematic enough combo in terms of floor spacing that you wouldn't expect that to be a word-beating unit even with Klay and Wiggs playing well. A small sample of great play + a very small sample of poor play = not as shocking a "flip" as it would seem. The reality is likely somewhere in between. Almost any unit with Steph is going to be at minimum pretty good in a big enough sample, but it's quite possible Saric is a better player than Looney (esp. alongside Draymond) and Moody and/or Kuminga are better than Wiggins and/or Klay.
Last edited:
well HRB is a Clippers believer, so you have that
The biggest problem for the Clippers/Warriors, other than age/injuries, is the Western Conf. It's relentless. Young, hungry, really good teams like the Wolves and OKC mixed in with troublesome teams like NOLA, Lakers, and Rockets. Then good teams like PHX, Dallas, Sacramento, and finally you have Denver waiting to club you with Joker.
Your teams don't get a chance to heal, gel, or breathe. The conference disparity is large, the EC has a whole bunch of meh. Even the big, bad Bucks are pretty unimpressive.
Disagree. There’s incredible depth across the league. Each conference has four trash teams but everyone else can work you.
Yep. I mean, Orlando has beaten the Lakers and Nuggets. The Knicks aren't exactly pushovers. The Heat are always a pain in the ass. Pacers can play with just about anyone on any given night. Sixers and Bucks are both legit title contenders despite their flaws. The Raptors have beaten both the Mavs and the Suns. Hawks got some good young, high energy players.
Don't agree with the love for the Western Conference over the East at all.
Vegas says 8 of the top 12 favored teams to win an NBA Championship reside in the WC.
That confirms my eye test. YMMV
That confirms my eye test. YMMV
Well, it would be a shock if someone besides Boston, Milwaukee or Philly made the Finals from the East. The West is more wide open, particularly past Denver. There’s about 7 WCF teams with a better shot of making the Finals than the Magic or Knicks or Cavs or even the Heat (IMO, not Vegas odds-wise). That may skew things.
Anyway WC 1 game up on EC so far. We will see.
Anyway WC 1 game up on EC so far. We will see.
Yeah, the odds are skewed because the West has a lot of mediocrity underneath healthy Denver, not because the East is sooo bad.
Of course those teams of some good players and I doubt whoever made the original comment was saying every team in the East was a pushover. But comparing those teams to their Western Conference counterparts, I don't even really see the argument that the East is as good as the West. It's certainly true that the league as a whole has a real odd balance this year -- a few awful teams (Detroit, Washington, San Antonio) and then the rest of the league being average or better. So not many pushovers in either conference. But among those average or better teams, more teams in the East tend to the average (i.e, good, can beat anyone on any given night, but not a really scary team) while more teams in the West are potential title contenders (and each have their flaws, too, of course -- no dominant teams). I don't see anything particularly controversial about that.
I think the East is better than the West. I'm pretty down on the Lakers, Warriors and the Clippers. It's really Denver, Phoenix and then the young teams like Minnesota, OKC and Sacramento underneath them. The East has four pretty legit finals/title contenders in Boston, Milwaukee, Philly and Miami, I can't really say the same for the West unless you really believe the LA teams and GS can turn things around.
I’d take both Minnesota and OKC over Miami. I also think the 5-11 spots in the West are better than the East, idk if it’s better but it’s less top heavy
On paper and in the regular season, yeah, but it's just so, so rare in the NBA for a young team to have its first real playoff run go deep. Minny I can sorta see because of last year's experience, but OKC is probably one year too early.
Yea, I made the original comment & agree that more EC teams tend to be average. BUT it's a completely subjective observation on my part, if folks want to object that's cool (although I never said the EC is bad).
I used Vegas to look for an unbiased arbitrator, getting pushback from a Celtics fan site is expected.
I imagine @Sam Ray Not & @ElUno20 may have a different perspective.
East teams have played 281 games, with a 140:141 record.
West teams have played 277 games, with a 139:138 record.
So the West has won exactly one more inter conference game this whole season so far; which is as even as it could possibly be with an odd # of interconference games played so far.
West teams have played 277 games, with a 139:138 record.
So the West has won exactly one more inter conference game this whole season so far; which is as even as it could possibly be with an odd # of interconference games played so far.