They were both speaking English. Other than that, I'd say that the tone and intent were pretty fucking different.
Celtics vs Da Culture - Round 1 (FIGHT!)
- Thread starter Ed Hillel
- Start date
Jrue is team best +46 over the three games. Maybe +\- isn’t the best stat but I think it says that Jrue’s contributions aren’t causing the Cs to bleed points.
According to Reddit, some interesting numbers around Jrue. Maybe correlation and not causation but I thought people might be interested in them.
Celtics 3P%:
Jrue on: 41% (2nd highest on team)
Jrue off: 29% (worst on team)
Heat 3P%
Jrue on: 38% (2nd lowest on team)
Jrue off: 47% (highest on team)
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cf9xbz/jrue_holiday_is_a_teambest_46_over_3_games/
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Well, nowadays, it’s hardly safe to say anything about “people that are different from you”. I’ll just leave it at that.
It is hard to argue those numbers. I thought he was forcing things at the rim in game 2. Or just coming up a bit short - was wondering if that nagging (was ot his shoulder) was impact his finishing...
If you like the way they played in game 3, I don't know why you'd make a change. As fun as it is to see Pp bring his full energy.
Nice find. Being a guy who cares about how the team plays when you're on the floor I appreciate these kinds of stats.
The Jrue/Tatum+ bench lineups have a net rating of +67.2 through 3 games lol.
The offense has been a disaster when Tatum has sat so far, there’s very little double teaming by the Heat in those situations, so it’s just everyone going 1 on 1. I also don’t expect it to continue, Joe will figure out a few actions that will open stuff up more consistently.
As for the overall Jrue point, he clearly has to play better. He’s just able to overcome poor shooting by the spacing he brings offensively, and his defense, non game 2 edition.
I’d fully expect him to hit more of his shots the rest of the way.
I’d fully expect him to hit more of his shots the rest of the way.
I guess my point was that he isn't having as negative of an impact on offense as I might have thought. And his defense - while not stifling- has produced (g2 aside)
You posted the Game 3 open 3 numbers. I think at least 25% of those 3’s were because of Holiday doing very dumb things (ducking under screens on Herro, randomly over helping)
I think his reputation is really helping him here. I don’t pretend to be a basketball genius, but if I am noticing you doing multiple dumb things a game (game 2 and 3 for Holiday) it’s not good.
And yes, I feel comfortable arguing against 3 game +/-
According to NBA.com, MIA shot for 3-10 when Jrue was the defender, including 1-6 from 3P line.
MIA had something like 85 possessions in the game. Might the two or three instances that you think Jrue was doing something wrong overcoming any impressions on what Jrue might be doing correctly on the other 50-or so possessions that Jrue defended?
I hope I can rewatch the game (I would bet a lot of money you didn’t watch) because those numbers don’t sound right to me at all
Yes, throw out numbers presented to you and question the credibility of the poster who took the extra step to prove you are wrong instead of just… admitting you are wrong. Very on brand.
WBCD is a great poster.
Can you just block me? I’m kind of tired of you replying to me. It’s always shitty, super condescending, yet manages to not add anything. Not an opinion, not anything
I guess you edited in that WBCD is a great poster. I agree. I still hope you block because I can’t say the same for you
Unlike most of the regular season games, I've been able to watch the playoff games in real time (and have seen your Jrue posts in the game threads).
Lowe, who has watched a lot more playoff Jrue than I have because I concentrate on the Cs - mentioned on one of his pods that it seems to him that every playoff game there's a couple of things that Jrue does that really makes him scratch his head - whether a gamble on defense; a shot on offense; a weird pass; or a bad TO.
But at the end of the day, Lowe thought Jrue was a second-team all-NBA last year.
Draymond said in his broadcast that he thinks Jrue is the best defender in the NBA.
The guys who pick the US team to go to the Olympics said that Jrue was a must-have because of his defense.
I get that there are a couple of things Jrue does that drives us all crazy - and, particularly down the stretch - Jrue had some bad TOs. However, for the most part, it seems to me that Jrue is playing really hard on defense; blowing up as many actions as he can; and covering for other people's mistakes. Plus, from what I understand, he has the green light to freelance whenever he wants because CJM respects his defense so much.
My reaction is that Jrue is playing at a really high level - much higher, for example, than Smart played last year against MIA (when MIA had 3 games of shooting over 50% from 3P) but I'm not breaking down film so YMMV.
@Red Averages thanks for the kind words; I just try to add some value to what I consider the best basketball discussion on the internet.
ok, I think we agree on everything you said? I mean everything you said is wxactly
What I said except you added in 3 game samples for Holiday?
I think he has a great reputation. I think he’s a very good player. I think he hasn’t been good this series.
3 game sample sizes don’t really change my opinion on that
I thought you said that Jrue wasn't playing well but I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so if that's not what you meant, that's fine.
I think Jrue is playing at a pretty high level. Higher than KP for instance.
I think he’s been better than KP (except for game 3). I think other than that, he’s been below his contract and what we expect
Focus on the message, not the messenger. Leave the personal disputes off the board.
I have deleted several posts that crossed this line.
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I apologize for my original post to you. It read shitter then I intended.
I think Holiday has been thoroughly mediocre and I think that we expected more
No worries. I try not to take anything on this board personally.
I think overall Jrue's been playing quite well and a huge part of shutting down Herro in G1 and G3. G2 I think no one played up to their contracts. But as I said before, YMMV.
What is better when comparing Jrue and KP? Their roles could not be any different. They were both soft and ineffective in G2….and both engaged and very effective in their role in G3. They have both had their moments of being exposed….Jrue for missing bunnies and Kristaps for not handling playoff physicality well at times. It just seems weird that this would be a duo to compare to each other with such different team responsibilities.
I was responding to @wade boggs chicken dinner.
It seems that we all agree on Game 2. The difference is that I think KP was good in Game 3, while I thought Jrue was mediocre
KP’s level of good was tempered to me by his struggle with a playoff style physical game which landed him on the bench in foul trouble. Jrue is like ‘08 Rondo offensively in that his job is to stay out of the way….but he was elite defensively the entire game in forcing Miami’s guards off their spots to get clean looks. It was the exact opposite of how he took pride in this area in G2.
box score:
1-5 from the field (below average), 1-3 from 3 (below average), 2 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers.
I mean, that’s the literal definition of a mediocre game. Throw in +/- then it points to a better game but everyone who watches basketball agrees that one game +/- doesn’t show anything.
Do you have any stats on that? I thought he allowed a decent amount of wide open 3’s. He got lucky that they were missed
This Jrue defense only really shows up on rewatch, but the stuff he did in balancing help vs. recovery was awesome. Forced so many guys to pick up dribbles with well-timed digs.
Jrue, while not as divisive as Smart, suffers from the same affliction. Publicly available metrics of whatever category don't give us a great idea of the value of defense (though conceptually a player who shoots poorly can be a big plus if they consistently get stops) and in real time its impossible to see all the small things they do to get players off their spots, chip ballhanders, set downscreens, seals etc.
That said, its fair to say that Holiday's impact is hard to see on this series. Like all players on both sides, he has had lapses and he clearly hasn't shot well.
In the end, if there is an argument to start PP over Jrue going forward, I strongly suspect that Spo and Miami would vote a resounding yes on that strategy.
The difference for me with Smart vs. Jrue is that Jrue is just somewhat better at everything. He does miss some bunnies, but he's a more threatening offensive player overall, and I prefer his defense. Agree on the macro point though.
Not comparing the two though I agree that Jrue is superior. My only point is that we are programmed to cheer for buckets but a guy who deters a good shooter from taking a three or who can also force a big off their spot in the post is a huge asset. If they are doing that numerous times per game, it has a lot of value and its cumulative imo.
Bigtime. When Jrue does his thing, and the rest of the team is locked in, you get easy 20-point wins in which the other team can't even get 3s off.
Here are the defensive stats from NBA.com for G3 (first) and G2 (second). Interesting that JT (4-5) and JB (2-5) were the only two Cs that gave up multiple 3Ps in G3 but of course JT was the best starter in terms of 3p% against in G2. Go figure.
I thought Holiday was awesome defensively last game, everyone will get burned by the Heat’s actions at times. His ability to consistently control the drive while also being in position to contest? That’s sexy stuff to watch.
It’s like i argue about efficiency offensively, if you make the right play 95% of the time, giving up an extra made shot or two taking some chances? Whatever.
It’s like i argue about efficiency offensively, if you make the right play 95% of the time, giving up an extra made shot or two taking some chances? Whatever.
Yeah, you're spot on that this is a concern
I'm hoping that for 'Zingis this is just part of the "welcome to playoffs, young fella" learning curve. And that a first round series against Bam, (and a second round against Wendall Carter?) get him down that learning curve and much more willing to fight for offensive and defensive position.
As for Jrue, I might be in the minority, but I'm really not concerned. The guys has been overlooked since his New Orleans days. I wish he didn't miss bunnies, but more or less every playoff series I'm watching includes great players missing shots.
I don't think we learn much by seeing defending shooting percentages on 3s. The guy contesting the shot is rarely the one "responsible" for whatever allowed the 3 to happen, and contests on those are not really differentiated that much by athletic ability of the defender or whatever.
I remain convinced that the reason we lost Game 2 was that Spoelstra saw us hunting mismatches in Game 1 and spent the game sending guys like Robinson at Tatum to throw the C’s out of their rhythm.
Zach Lowe pointed this out on his most recent pod, and I thought it was very astute. He noticed the Heat had their weakest defender (often Herro) on Brown instead of White as anticipated. The Celtics’ offense has bogged down before when mismatch hunting. One example I remember was going repeatedly after Curry when he had five fouls.
Maybe we just think that 1-6 from Jrue is good because we’re so used to Smart having that same efficiency on twice as many shots.
Which shows up as what stat? Maybe +/-? But everyone who watches basketball knows that worthless. Jeezus the arrogance of some of the posters here.
Herro on Jaylen seems like a really bad idea for Miami. It reminds me of the Warriors letting Brown shoot open 3s.
BUT it does reduce ball movement & turns Boston into an ISO-centric offense.
1. takes the ball out of Tatum's hands
2. makes Brown the decision-maker
3. opens up doubling/stripping Brown
4. lets Miami foul and send Jayen to the FT line
clearly Spoelstra knows what he's doing, so there must be a method to his madness
great point. and the fact that that stood out as breaking the flow of what we saw in game one maybe shows the “playoffs are all about hunting mismatches” narrative is a bit overblown. i mostly see teams run their normal offenses.
I think the D at this point is way better. Marcus’s D appeared to hit the proverbial cliff after 2021-22 season, and in particular started to show slowdown following the calf pop in January 2021. He’s also just constantly injured at this point, even when he plays, and I’d never really expect him to make it/survive though a 6-8 week playoff schedule/intensity.
I’ll add to the list that it also results in fewer threes and more twos the Celtics “optimized” offense.
In game 2, Bam and Haywood each defended Tatum for 24 possessions, Caleb Martin 9, and everyone else for a combined 21.
The Heat’s goal is to take the ball out of Tatum’s hands, and make everyone else beat them. That’s why they’ve been leaving Herro on an island against Jaylen.
He's also looked just awful on his attempts to score around the rim.
He's shooting 7 of 25 from the field this series, which is really bad, but that breaks down to 4-11 from three (fine; less than one make fewer than his excellent regular season percentage) and 3-14 from 2 (just awful, worse than Marcus Smart level awful). That further breaks down to 2-4 within 3 feet of the rim (regular season Jrue shot .688) and 1 of 8 between 3 and 10 feet (regular season Jrue shot .490). By the eye test he has looked just as bad as the numbers suggest.
I'm not suggesting doing anything different with him; I agree the defense has been there and his offensive struggles are probably the least of the Celtics problems right now. At the very most I'd consider giving Pritchard 2-3 of his 35 minutes, maybe.