2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict

[Auger34]

In short, whether Porter was on the field is irrelevant to the offsetting penalties discussion. He shouldn't have been there, by the rules, but there's no specific penalty for that - the fine that he will reportedly be issued is likely the right penalty for simply being on the field.

No, there's no specific rule that he can't be out there. In fact, when a player is injured the coach can walk out onto the field. But this is a case where the refs should have used a some common sense and got him the fuck off the field or at the very least thrown a flag on him for instigating a scuffle.
For one, even though coaches are allowed onto the field when a player is injured, why the fuck was Joey Porter a Linebackers coach out onto the field when one of the receivers is hurt? Not only that but, as the screen grabs and video show, Porter basically looks at Brown on the ground then wades back into a group of Bengal players bumps one of them then immediately starts talking shit to all of them.

Burfict is the dirtiest player in the NFL and PacMan Jones is a complete moron (as the Grammy comment shows up thread) but everyone needs to hold the officials to a much higher standard. They lost control of that game when they didn't flag Shazier/the Steelers sideline for celebrating concussing another player. That was the clear turning point of the game, when it started to look like there were going to be multiple fist fights between players. That was a terrible job of policing everything during that last sequence (I think Burfict should have been thrown out as he was clearly trying to hurt or fight anyone he could at that point, off setting flags on Porter and Jones and be done with it).

It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth that a playoff game was heavily decided by a call that involved a coach going onto the field under false pretenses, bumping a player, talking shit and somehow instigating a flag while he gets off scot free.

And if you don't believe Porter was going out there with the explicit intention of talking shit/causing a scuffle, it's been reported that he was rewarded the game ball. I am pretty sure that wasn't because of his excellent job at looking at a concussed Antonio Brown for 5 seconds

 

[singaporesoxfan]

I don't think anyone "defending" the Bengals is arguing that they should not have been penalized. The issue is that both teams were up to no good and only one was penalized.

If you're talking specifically about the Porter call, the refs were not calling abuse/taunting throughout the whole game. Porter's two fouls/violations were taunting (which was not being called on either team) and being on the field (which is a violation for which there is no on-field penalty, so you can't call unsportsmanlike conduct and offset the penalty). That's different from what Jones did, which was making contact with a ref.

If your issue in terms of both teams being up to no good in terms of Shazier vs Burfict being penalized, I agree that's unfair, but the refs missing the call on Shazier shouldn't mean Burfict gets a make-up call for that kind of hit. I don't think the Steelers were models of composure at all. Lots of Steelers and Bengals lost their cool. Jones and Burfict just lost theirs at the more inappropriate time.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Has Blandino/the league made any mention of the Shazier hit and taunt? Will be very telling if he is not at the very least fined.

 

[johnmd20]

If you're talking specifically about the Porter call, the refs were not calling abuse/taunting throughout the whole game. Porter's two fouls/violations were taunting (which was not being called on either team) and being on the field (which is a violation for which there is no on-field penalty, so you can't call unsportsmanlike conduct and offset the penalty). That's different from what Jones did, which was making contact with a ref.

If your issue in terms of both teams being up to no good in terms of Shazier vs Burfict being penalized, I agree that's unfair, but the refs missing the call on Shazier shouldn't mean Burfict gets a make-up call for that kind of hit. I don't think the Steelers were models of composure at all. Lots of Steelers and Bengals lost their cool. Jones and Burfict just lost theirs at the more inappropriate time.

Missing the Shazier hit was pretty egregious. That was a clear "crown of the helmet" hit, which is prohibited outside the tackle box. It was not incidental. It was a knock out.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

Not to be an ass, but can anyone point to the specific rule that prohibits coaches from being on the field during timeouts? I have seen this happen many, many times while watching NFL games.

Boomer Esiason spoke about this today on the radio. While it may technically be against the rules it is common practice in the NFL for either an assistant coach or inactive player to come onto the field during an injury timeout to help carry the player off the field. Basically Joey Porter is a big strong guy and could have had a practical purpose there as someone for Brown to lean on as he walked off.

The problem here is that Porter wandered away from the people taking care of Brown to start yapping at the Bengals. His presence on the field while technically against the rules did not really cross the line until his attention shifted away from being there as a resource to help the injured the played and towards being a asshat, immature, shit stirrer.

(I cannot speak to whether or not Porter is/was always the guy to go onto the field to help injured players for the Steelers, but presumably that was the pre-text for him venturing out there)

 

[E5 Yaz]

If you're talking specifically about the Porter call, the refs were not calling abuse/taunting throughout the whole game. Porter's two fouls/violations were taunting (which was not being called on either team) and being on the field (which is a violation for which there is no on-field penalty, so you can't call unsportsmanlike conduct and offset the penalty). That's different from what Jones did, which was making contact with a ref.

My only quibble with you on this is that taunting wasn't being called for most of the game ... but Porter was an outlier situation -- being that he was involved in a fracas when he shouldn't have even been on the field. That's a heckuva lot different than two players going at it after a play.

Players jostled the refs during the scrum, but none of them were called for the penalty until Jones did so -- because his was an individual act beyond the norm. Porter's taunt was outside the norm as well, and should have been penalized.

 

[ManicCompression]

If you're talking specifically about the Porter call, the refs were not calling abuse/taunting throughout the whole game. Porter's two fouls/violations were taunting (which was not being called on either team) and being on the field (which is a violation for which there is no on-field penalty, so you can't call unsportsmanlike conduct and offset the penalty). That's different from what Jones did, which was making contact with a ref.

If your issue in terms of both teams being up to no good in terms of Shazier vs Burfict being penalized, I agree that's unfair, but the refs missing the call on Shazier shouldn't mean Burfict gets a make-up call for that kind of hit. I don't think the Steelers were models of composure at all. Lots of Steelers and Bengals lost their cool. Jones and Burfict just lost theirs at the more inappropriate time.

I don't think that Burfict should be allowed a "make up call" or that Jones and Porter are guilty of the same penalty. The majority of this thread is about how the Bengals screwed up and that they have no one to blame but themselves. Since most of us think that Porter should not have been on the field and that the Shazier hit was illegal, we agree that the refs had a heavy hand in the outcome.

"Inappropriate time" here seems to only be defined by whether the refs threw their flag or not (or, in the case of Porter, escorted him off the field). The Shazier hit/turnover was a crucial turning point in the game. If instead of Pitt getting the ball, Cincy gets 15 yards, who knows how that game turns out.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

No, there's no specific rule that he can't be out there. In fact, when a player is injured the coach can walk out onto the field. But this is a case where the refs should have used a some common sense and got him the fuck off the field or at the very least thrown a flag on him for instigating a scuffle.
For one, even though coaches are allowed onto the field when a player is injured, why the fuck was Joey Porter a Linebackers coach out onto the field when one of the receivers is hurt? Not only that but, as the screen grabs and video show, Porter basically looks at Brown on the ground then wades back into a group of Bengal players bumps one of them then immediately starts talking shit to all of them.

Burfict is the dirtiest player in the NFL and PacMan Jones is a complete moron (as the Grammy comment shows up thread) but everyone needs to hold the officials to a much higher standard. They lost control of that game when they didn't flag Shazier/the Steelers sideline for celebrating concussing another player. That was the clear turning point of the game, when it started to look like there were going to be multiple fist fights between players. That was a terrible job of policing everything during that last sequence (I think Burfict should have been thrown out as he was clearly trying to hurt or fight anyone he could at that point, off setting flags on Porter and Jones and be done with it).

It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth that a playoff game was heavily decided by a call that involved a coach going onto the field under false pretenses, bumping a player, talking shit and somehow instigating a flag while he gets off scot free.

And if you don't believe Porter was going out there with the explicit intention of talking shit/causing a scuffle, it's been reported that he was rewarded the game ball. I am pretty sure that wasn't because of his excellent job at looking at a concussed Antonio Brown for 5 seconds

I don't disagree with any of this. Refs should have controlled the game better. Shazier should have been penalized. Porter likely went in as a provocateur. (Eric Edholm tweeted 5 days ago that Porter would try to get in the Bengals' heads.) But even with all that, the Bengals were in a good position. The entire success of Porter's tactic depended on the Bengals being able to be provoked in a way that made them abandon good situational football.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

I don't think that Burfict should be allowed a "make up call" or that Jones and Porter are guilty of the same penalty. The majority of this thread is about how the Bengals screwed up and that they have no one to blame but themselves. Since most of us think that Porter should not have been on the field and that the Shazier hit was illegal, we agree that the refs had a heavy hand in the outcome.

"Inappropriate time" here seems to only be defined by whether the refs threw their flag or not (or, in the case of Porter, escorted him off the field). The Shazier hit/turnover was a crucial turning point in the game. If instead of Pitt getting the ball, Cincy gets 15 yards, who knows how that game turns out.

I don't think we're far apart here, in that I don't disagree that the refs had a hand in the outcome. But given that arbitrary refereeing is part of the NFL and was already on display in the game, Jones' actions were much riskier to his team's chances of victory than Porter's (I assume the worst that could happen from the Steelers' point of view would be that Porter taunts the Bengals, no one responds, Porter gets flagged and the Steelers now have to gain 15 more yards for a 50-yard attempt). That's what I meant by "inappropriate time": before anyone knew whether the refs would throw a flag, what Jones did was already a stupid move in terms of potential to affect win expectancy.

Part of the reason the thread is about how the Bengals have no one to blame but themselves seems to be in response to the fact that Jones has been blaming everyone but himself. And the Bengals do have a case against the refs, but they would be much better served looking at what they can control than what they cannot.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Lost in all this is the dickishness of the steelers and Tomlin losing control of his coaches. I can't believe Munchak was not thrown out for pulling the hair of an opponent.

 

[ManicCompression]

I don't think we're far apart here, in that I don't disagree that the refs had a hand in the outcome.

I don't think we are, either. It just seems a bit unrealistic to expect a player to run a risk analysis in his head in this type of situation, especially since the situation (a recent former player, now coach, walking onto the field and taunting his opponent) is not common.

You note that games are refereed arbitrarily - does that mean a team/fanbase can't gripe when the calls arbitrarily favor an opponent? Most of us arguing on "behalf" of the Bengals are just pointing out how different the situations would be had they been properly handled/penalized.

Furthermore, a general argument from other commenters seems to be that because the Bengals made some stupid mistakes, we're not allowed to point out the inconsistencies in the officiating. If this were the Patriots, that would be a roundly criticized opinion. Some of the Bengals mistakes were caused by the bad reffing.

I haven't really been paying attention to what Jones has been saying, so I can't speak to that. Jeremy Hill certainly took his lumps for his fumble. I think a lot of this conversation was started because the response/narrative is "typical Bengals!" and I just don't share that opinion. They got jobbed by the refs in some really important situations and that influenced the outcome of the game.

I guess we're all just arguing about degrees of culpability. My personal opinion is that it tilts toward the refs and, for some reason, that makes me not able to understand how to use the words "and" and "the".

 

[Fred in Lynn]

I don't think that Burfict should be allowed a "make up call" or that Jones and Porter are guilty of the same penalty. The majority of this thread is about how the Bengals screwed up and that they have no one to blame but themselves. Since most of us think that Porter should not have been on the field and that the Shazier hit was illegal, we agree that the refs had a heavy hand in the outcome.

"Inappropriate time" here seems to only be defined by whether the refs threw their flag or not (or, in the case of Porter, escorted him off the field). The Shazier hit/turnover was a crucial turning point in the game. If instead of Pitt getting the ball, Cincy gets 15 yards, who knows how that game turns out.

The Bengals weren't flagged when they all ran on the filed after the Shazier hit, or after Burfict and his teammates ran the length of the field and up the tunnel after the Jones INT. The Steelers had their first scoring drive ruined by a ridiculous personal foul call on Foster, settling for a FG, and the Bengals went from mid-field to the 4 on the weak PI call against Allen that set up their first TD. Who knows how the game turns out if any of that happened the other way. See how that works?

The NFL shit the bed when it failed to do anything meaningful to Burfict after he dove at Ben's knees, effectively setting the stage for the craziness of Saturday's game.

 

[Fred in Lynn]

Has Blandino/the league made any mention of the Shazier hit and taunt? Will be very telling if he is not at the very least fined.

I don't know how they missed that hit. You can't hit with the crown of the helmet. Mike Carey lamenting the fact that Bernhard was no longer a defenseless receiver was beside the point. But where was the taunt? Shazier picked up the fumble and ran with it. He had his helmet on and didn't do anything resembling a taunt after that while Bernhard was on the ground. Bernhard ran off the field to the locker room after he reached the sideline, and the play was still under review. When they did their stupid celebration on the sideline afterward, what was it in doing so that was a taunt at Bernhard?

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

No, there's no specific rule that he can't be out there. In fact, when a player is injured the coach can walk out onto the field.

Why do people just not check the rulebook?

RULE 13 NON-PLAYER CONDUCT

SECTION 1 NON-PLAYER CONDUCT ARTICLE 1. NON-PLAYER FOULS. There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct by a substitute, coach, attendant, or any other non-player (entitled to sit on a team’s bench) during any period or timeout (including between halves). Notes: (1) “Loud speaker” coaching from the sidelines is not permissible. (2) A player may communicate with a coach provided the coach is in his prescribed area during dead-ball periods.

ARTICLE 2. TEAM ATTENDANTS MAY ENTER FIELD DURING TIMEOUT. Either or both team attendants and their helpers may enter the field to attend their team during a team timeout by either team. No other non-player may come on the field without the Referee’s permission, unless he is an incoming substitute (5-2-2). During any team timeout, all playing rules continue in force. Representatives of either team are prohibited from entering the field unless they are incoming substitutes, or team attendants or trainers entering to provide for the welfare of a player, and any game-type activities are prohibited on the Field of Play.


Assistant coaches aren't attendants or trainers. It's a clear penalty. Even head coaches aren't supposed to be out on the field - forget a linebackers coach when the offense is on the field.

 

[ManicCompression]

See how that works?

Yes, I do. From your comment, you must also agree that players in the game would have no idea what constitutes a personal foul or taunting penalty. So weird how they and the fans would find that frustrating and confusing when players/teams are singled out in certain situations.

Honestly, I think a big problem is the media. The "These teams in the AFC North really don't like each other! Each game is a battle!" crap that's been trotted out for 15 years now feeds into the expectation that these games SHOULD be like this. This is compounded by the fact that half the "analysts" out there are connected to Baltimore/Pitt in one way or another. The games are built up into heavyweight boxing matches and we're surprised when these guys actually get violently angry. Then the part-time refs aren't trained/empowered enough to calm the action down, so we end up with two teams exchanging cheap shots and one fanbase whinging that they got the short end of the officiating stick.

 

[Cabin Mirror]

I don't know how they missed that hit. You can't hit with the crown of the helmet. Mike Carey lamenting the fact that Bernhard was no longer a defenseless receiver was beside the point. But where was the taunt? Shazier picked up the fumble and ran with it. He had his helmet on and didn't do anything resembling a taunt after that while Bernhard was on the ground. Bernhard ran off the field to the locker room after he reached the sideline, and the play was still under review. When they did their stupid celebration on the sideline afterward, what was it in doing so that was a taunt at Bernhard?

It wasn't an on field taunt like standing over a player and talking shit. Shazier was seen on the sidelines waving good bye, presumably aimed at the guy he nearly knocked unconscious. That one bothered me a lot.

 

[Statman]

 

[DeadlySplitter]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 7m7 minutes ago

Vontaze Burfict has been suspended for the first three games of the 2016 regular-season, per NFL.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Paging Judge Berman...

 

[LuckyBen]

Adam Schefter ‏@AdamSchefter 7m7 minutes ago

Vontaze Burfict has been suspended for the first three games of the 2016 regular-season, per NFL.

The suspensions are always so random. If this happened at 12 against the Jaguars in September, it's probably only a fine.

Edit: not saying the hit only deserved a fine. Only the hypocrisy of the Shield.

 

[Cabin Mirror]

The suspensions are always so random. If this happened at 12 against the Jaguars in September, it's probably only a fine.

Edit: not saying the hit only deserved a fine. Only the hypocrisy of the Shield.

I wonder what Shazier's suspension will be?

(won't hold my breath)

 

[Cellar-Door]

I wonder what Shazier's suspension will be?

(won't hold my breath)

For what? It's not just the punishments that are random. Because the pass catcher took 1 more step his was legal.

 

[Cabin Mirror]

For what? It's not just the punishments that are random. Because the pass catcher took 1 more step his was legal.

It was my understanding that it should have been flagged because he led with the crown of his helmet.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

It was my understanding that it should have been flagged because he led with the crown of his helmet.

Your understanding is correct. I think Cellar is being facetious.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

As someone stated above, the second the refs decide to not call something like that because it's a critical spot, it puts them at risk from very strong, very fast men in pads.

No it doesnt. People keep acting like this is a slippery slope argument. They get brushed with incidental contact and don't throw a flag, so now they're on the path to get mauled by professional athletes? Come on.

I prefer forcing players to demonstrate emotional intelligence over forcing officials to determine which kinds of physical contact towards them should be flagged and which shouldn't, and when.

Have poise on the field and it's not an issue.

Good. Fine him after the game and suspend him for the next 4 games, including playoffs if they're still there. The point is still clearly made without ruining one of the 11 games in a 531 game season that means shit.

 

[DJnVa]

I don't think we are, either. It just seems a bit unrealistic to expect a player to run a risk analysis in his head in this type of situation, especially since the situation (a recent former player, now coach, walking onto the field and taunting his opponent) is not common.

Are we taking Pacman's word that Porter started it? Porter is clearly an asshole, but Pacman is known to run his mouth and unless there's something that show Porter starting it, I don't know that we should necessarily believe Pacman that Porter started it and he was just returning fire.

 

[ManicCompression]

Are we taking Pacman's word that Porter started it? Porter is clearly an asshole, but Pacman is known to run his mouth and unless there's something that show Porter starting it, I don't know that we should necessarily believe Pacman that Porter started it and he was just returning fire.

That was an argument too far on my part. I wanted to highlight how rare it is for players to have beef with opposing team's assistants. I don't really know who started it but neither does anyone else really. There's far too little information for anyone to be completely sure about what happened between these two teams.

 

[Rudy's Curve]

Are we taking Pacman's word that Porter started it? Porter is clearly an asshole, but Pacman is known to run his mouth and unless there's something that show Porter starting it, I don't know that we should necessarily believe Pacman that Porter started it and he was just returning fire.

I don't think Porter was coming out there to use his medical expertise and tend to Brown.

 

[findguapo]

edit - already posted

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

I liked that picture better 12 posts ago.

 

[E5 Yaz]

For everybody that wanted a 15 yard penalty for Porter being on the field:

https://i.imgur.com/QbwOK9k.jpg

As has been said any fucking number of times ... it's not that Porter was on the field. It's what he was doing while he was out there

 

[findguapo]

Here is a reddit post that is a pretty good summary of the Jones flag with accompanying gifs as it unfolded (from a Steelers fan point of view) - this is worth a read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/steelers/comments/40iava/additional_joey_porter_insights_jerryporter/

 

[singaporesoxfan]

Why do people just not check the rulebook?

Assistant coaches aren't attendants or trainers. It's a clear penalty. Even head coaches aren't supposed to be out on the field - forget a linebackers coach when the offense is on the field.

I already quoted from the same section of the rule book in the thread. Being on the field is clearly against the rules, but it just as clearly does not have a specified penalty, so it's the opposite of a clear penalty. The rule book has a rule about violations (infractions without specified penalties) that states that violations are not fouls and do not offset fouls:

ARTICLE 4. VIOLATION
A violation is an infraction of a playing rule for which a penalty is not prescribed. A violation does not offset a foul

This makes sense for this rule: yes, in general coaches aren't supposed to be on the field but sometimes you might want them on to help support injured players or other reasons and so you don't want it to be an automatic penalty. Or otherwise it would be flags galore when coaches start their walk onto the field during end of game kneel downs.

 

[riboflav]

Thanks, guapo. Good context there. Bengals look a little more guilty that I previously thought.

 

[Sox and Rocks]

Yeah, that picture says it all, guapo.

As I previously stated, flagging porter for being on the field is not in the rule book, and coaches are on the field all the time in situations like these, as that picture proves.

 

[crystalline]

but everyone needs to hold the officials to a much higher standard. They lost control of that game when they didn't flag Shazier/the Steelers sideline for celebrating concussing another player. That was the clear turning point of the game, when it started to look like there were going to be multiple fist fights between players. That was a terrible job of policing everything during that last sequence (I think Burfict should have been thrown out as he was clearly trying to hurt or fight anyone he could at that point, off setting flags on Porter and Jones and be done with it).

Excellent post.

The officials completely screwed this up.
In the first half there were at least three PF calls and at least one more scrum that could have led to a penalty. The PF calls weren't changing any behavior and ultimately the refs just decided the game.

There should have been ejections earlier. Running up the tunnel should have been a penalty. Shazier should have been a penalty.
At minimim, the Burfict hit should have been a no-questions-asked ejection. Wasn't it clear by then that 15-yard penalties weren't having the desired effect? I'd argue that was clear by the first quarter.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

I already quoted from the same section of the rule book in the thread. Being on the field is clearly against the rules, but it just as clearly does not have a specified penalty, so it's the opposite of a clear penalty. The rule book has a rule about violations (infractions without specified penalties) that states that violations are not fouls and do not offset fouls:

Here's the end of rule 13:

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/16_2013_Non-Player_Conduct.pdf

Penalty: For illegal acts under Articles 1 through 6 above: Loss of 15 yards from team for whose supposed benefit foul was made. (Unsportsmanlike Conduct.) Enforcement is from: a) the succeeding spot if the ball is dead. b) whatever spot the Referee, after consulting with crew, deems equitable, if the ball was in play. For a flagrant violation, the Referee may exclude the offender or offenders from the playing field enclosure for the remainder of the game.

It's clearly defined as an Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty

 

[canvass ali]

If at some point you want to update/change the thread title, I submit "Vontazed and Confused".

 

[m0ckduck]

If at some point you want to update/change the thread title, I submit "Vontazed and Confused".

2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict

 

[TFP]

Goddamn it I was just gonna post that. My only other suggestion was "A Burfict Circle"

 

[johnmd20]

A Burfict Circle sucks. Nobody's Burfict is perfect.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

A Burfict Circle sucks. Nobody's Burfict is perfect.

Agreed.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Gotta like the B on his arm

 

[Average Reds]

2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict

 

[Dogman]

A Burfict Circle sucks. Nobody's Burfict is perfect.

You are awfully sexy when you get all complaining and shit.

 

[canvass ali]

2015 Bengals: Nobody's Burfict

Yeah, this is pretty #@$% brilliant.

 

[johnmd20]

You are awfully sexy when you get all complaining and shit.

I am emulating the master.

 

[BlackJack]

Burfict is the enemy of good

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

I wonder what Shazier's suspension will be?

(won't hold my breath)

I'm turning blue over here, probably should not have held my breath.

Surely they have reviewed the hit and decided on the punishment by now, which appears to be nothing.

 

[Marciano490]

Goddamn it I was just gonna post that. My only other suggestion was "A Burfict Circle"

Nah, Maynard needs to focus on Tool.