2017 Brady Watch: Is Guerrero Legit?
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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I dont think that would be a problem. The opposite would be a problem. Team trainers say "good to go," AG says "not so fast."
But we are making shit up...I'm going to stick with what we know. He doesn't travel with the team, stay on the sidelines or treat players at the stadium other than Brady.
Of course it would be a problem. If the Patriots' training staff(the people paid by the team) doesn't want a player to go on the field and someone from the outside says they are ready and Belichick sides with them that would absolutely piss off the Patriots' staff.
BB has decided the restrictions put on this guy are in the best interest of the NEP. That is good enough for me.
Guerrero isn't the team doctor, nor any other kind of doctor for that matter. If he's stepping on the medical staff's toes, which has been at least implicitly suggested by Bedard, then he's out of the fucking building. That's not a tenable situation in any organization - you need to empower your handpicked experts (doctors, lawyers) to render their expertise within the four walls.
If Guerrero really offers value, then the team would/should hire him as a consultant or salaried employee and give him a defined role within/alongside the training staff. Otherwise, he's someone players should consult on their own time.
If Guerrero really offers value, then the team would/should hire him as a consultant or salaried employee and give him a defined role within/alongside the training staff. Otherwise, he's someone players should consult on their own time.
The local media will try/wants to make this into a story. Minihane asked Brady 2-3 times yesterday about it, and the other shows were mentioning it as well. Thankfully, all parties involved are pretty good at killing a (non)story when they have to.
Fauria did say something the other day about wondering if Guerero buys his own plane/game tickets for away games so he can be there to treat/work with Brady, either the night before or morning of. I agree it's not a real big deal but more just interesting.
Fauria did say something the other day about wondering if Guerero buys his own plane/game tickets for away games so he can be there to treat/work with Brady, either the night before or morning of. I agree it's not a real big deal but more just interesting.
There was no way I was thinking that BB would side with guerrero. If he did, yes, that would be a problem.
Guerrero has been around for years and we've never heard any rumblings about this kind of stuff before. There's enough smoke here that I believe there is some kind of issue that has come up that hasn't been a problem before. Bedard had a pretty reasonable take on F&M yesterday afternoon, saying that there was some friction but nothing that he thought was going to derail the season or cause lasting damage to Brady and Belichick's relationship. I love Brady but hopefully he and Guerrero back off here. They let Brady do what he wants in terms of training, but it's completely reasonable for the team not to want him interfering with how they treat the other players.
Yes, I have to think BB and the Patriots' concern is for after Brady's retirement. They don't want Guerrero and Brady himself pitching their methods to the players through any inside means once Brady transitions full-time to his TB12 post-playing career.
I would guess more specifically they care about Brady pitching them now (when they need him to play a certain role in the lockerroom and not create any perception of creating favoriates) for work now and after he quits, rather than on what he might pitch to them once he's retired. Because in the latter situation, they have lots of tools to manage things.
Tom is so locked in that I can’t see this having much affect on him. But damn, I hate messing with anything having to do with what makes the most important member of the team most comfortable.
BB has and deserves a lot of leeway but this strikes me as not his finest hour. I hope I’m wrong and this truly is a giant nothingburger for Tom.
BB has and deserves a lot of leeway but this strikes me as not his finest hour. I hope I’m wrong and this truly is a giant nothingburger for Tom.
Brady's AG treatment remains unaffected; still on-site. So Tom is still pretty comfortable.
As for not BB's "finest hour?" Really? I dont see it. If the Coach/GM really had to choose between the team's medical staff's concerns and AG, he'd be an idiot to side with AG. But beyond that, as a matter of substance and management, this seems like a pretty good compromise that would piss off only someone who is probably too immature to play in NE anyway.
The fact that, as I read the story, this happened weeks ago, suggests no one is terribly upset. If I had to guess, Hohler's more recent source is probably Guerrero or maybe some staffers that are butthurt because Guerrero seems to get all the credit for Brady's success.
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There are liability concerns, too. Guerrero is (probably) a quack. If the Patriots are knowingly giving him free access to players at their facility, it's a tacit endorsement of his methods. If before a Patriots game, in a Patriots locker room, in a Patriots jacket he's telling guys that drinking his magic water will prevent concussions, it creates a situation where players think the training staff approve it. Then they get several concussions and the Pats are on the hook.
"NFL teams are shady" stuff aside, you don't fuck around with doctor/patient relationship questions.
"NFL teams are shady" stuff aside, you don't fuck around with doctor/patient relationship questions.
If this isn't BB's finest hour, it's because he allowed AG to have unfettered access in the first place.
I'm assuming ground rules are being set now because some lines have been blurred, in which case the current course of action is absolutely the appropriate response.
I can't imagine any athletic trainer would be happy with having an unlicensed charlatan roaming the team facility and team charter and interacting with players. Liability issues (which are also legitimate) aside, it could very easily interfere with the AT staff's ability to do its job.
A player strains a calf, and has the team's athletic trainer telling him to do stretches X, Y, and Z, and maybe he can be ready to play on Sunday, and Guerrero sidles up to him on the flight home and says "You can definitely be ready by Sunday, just rub this cat urine balm on the back of your leg and sacrifice a live wolverine at midnight Saturday."
Could be annoying/counterproductive.
A player strains a calf, and has the team's athletic trainer telling him to do stretches X, Y, and Z, and maybe he can be ready to play on Sunday, and Guerrero sidles up to him on the flight home and says "You can definitely be ready by Sunday, just rub this cat urine balm on the back of your leg and sacrifice a live wolverine at midnight Saturday."
Could be annoying/counterproductive.
I'm not sure that a program that really seems to focus on Brady keeping his weight down, injury prevention, and really pushing flexibility/mobility in the hopes of maintaining performance over a long period of time is exactly what you want, for example, a guy like Eric Lee to be focusing on--at some of the other spots you're going to want players getting their weight, strength, power and explosiveness up.
I didn't realize that AG was a witch doctor. Or is he wiccan?
I could be wrong.
Side note: I once dated a girl who claimed to be a wiccan. She swore that if I broke up with her she would cast bad spells on me. I actually think she did...I have been married for 20+ years (not to her).
FWIW, here's what Bedard wrote today on the Boston Sports Journal.
Bottom line is it doesn't seem like a season altering issue, but Guerrero was definitely causing issues with the training staff, which is why Bill felt this was necessary.
Bottom line is it doesn't seem like a season altering issue, but Guerrero was definitely causing issues with the training staff, which is why Bill felt this was necessary.
I don't have a strong view on this given the amount of facts I am missing. I don't know nearly enough about what AG was doing and the level of his interference and whatever else BB might have seen.
But the reason to suffer his presence in the first place was presumably because the most important player on the team, and arguably the GOAT QB, wanted that. That fact hasn't changed. So I am not sure I think that allowing AG there initially was a bad idea. Brady is exactly the exceptional kind of player you bend over backwards for. Moreover, if AG has been on the sidelines for the last 3-4 years, that coincides with some very good results for Brady and his team.
So all things considered, it looks to me from the outside, with all real caveats, that removing Brady's helper wasn't Bill's best move. As I said in my last post, I hope it's a total blip and suspect it will not affect anyone's performance. But even a 2% chance that it will strikes me as too high.
Except there is only so much one can tolerate, even for Brady. It appears that Guerrero crossed a line at some point with the team's training staff, perhaps more than once. Belichick's first priority is the team, not Brady. Belichick never said that Brady cannot ever see Guerrero; Brady can still fly Guerrero out with him to road games on Giselle's nickel. And other players can still use Guerrero's services.
The team decided Guerrero doesn't need be on the sidelines, nor did he need an office in the stadium. Maybe Brady gets a little irritated by the whole thing, given that he's Guerrero's business partner. But I'm quite sure that Brady has gotten over it already, just like he got over the trade of Logan Mankins.
As for the bolded, there's a bigger than 2% chance that Brady's performance declines in the next couple of years due to age/injury regardless of whether Alex Guerrero is prowling the sidelines.
All of this makes sense.
I tend to think in terms of unintended consequences and potential harms resulting from moves that are understandable/logical. For the reasons you mentioned, this appears to be such a move.
And I’m a confirmed BB fan and am extremely conscious of his other worldly record of success. I’m not quite at In Bill I Trust, but I’m admittedly pretty close.
And even though I agree that the chances Brady will eventually decline are greater than the chances that this move will cause his panties to bunch, the latter is still something that I think is possible and thus a concern for me.
And I should add that adverse consequences may not be limited to anything on the field. It’s possible that BB’a stance here could make Tom less flexible (no pun intended) when his next contract is negotiated. I’m not predicting that. It’s just an outcome I could imagine.
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The Globe article is behind a paywall so I haven't read it, but has anyone from Brady or the Patriots confirmed that Guerrero crossed a line or somehow impeded the teams training staff? Or is this just stuff that reporters are reporting without a named source?
I really do not like John Tomase. His performance just prior to SB 42 was unforgivable and I think it’s possible that the distraction he caused or contributed to played a role in the hideous outcome.
So it’s with some reluctance that I link the below article. I decided to do it because I read it after I posted above and he makes some of the points, and elaborates on them, that I was getting at above.
http://www.weei.com/articles/column/tomase-why-tom-brady-bill-belichick-alex-guerrero-story-really-matters-patriots-now
So it’s with some reluctance that I link the below article. I decided to do it because I read it after I posted above and he makes some of the points, and elaborates on them, that I was getting at above.
http://www.weei.com/articles/column/tomase-why-tom-brady-bill-belichick-alex-guerrero-story-really-matters-patriots-now
Most of what Hoehler writes about isn't new; in fact, he recites some old stories from 2013 and 2015 below:
I should also note that the article mentions that Brady can still receive treatment from Guerrero at his office in the stadium. But the other players must walk the 10 minutes to Guerrero's own facility in Patriot Place.
Again, it's a nothing burger. If this alone results in Brady spending his age 44-45 seasons on another team, oh well.
He still has the stadium office.
This. And even the new rules seem to have been imposed some time ago.
It is a story. It is not a "controversy," no matter how hard anyone tries to turn it into one.
Tomase has zero credibility.
I've heard the "Brady has played poorly over the past month" crap from other sources, however. Most of the "played poorly" is from the Miami game, when Gronk was suspended and Hogan was ineffective due to injury and Brady had his typical "one bad game" that he has each season. Brady looked pretty darn good against the Steelers, aside from that one pick. While he only gets "credit" for 1 TD pass against Pittsburgh, he did set one up nicely with his 43 yard bomb to Cooks on a perfectly placed throw, and led the final drive under pressure with 3 straight completions to Gronk.
Tomase should just go away.
I’m certainly not trying to make this into more than a story. Even Tomase, who is more negative than me, seems to be holding back and seemingly was not trying to manufacture much of a controversy.
For me, anything that could impact the Pats is of concern and worth at least batting around. I see this as that, even though I view the likelihood of an actual problem as low.
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Yes, the play over the last month stuff was wildly overstated, for the reasons you mentioned.
Tomase sucks. He does way too much speculating of what goes on inside Gillette. In reality, he has no sources, so he has no clue.
Anyway, this is how I see it as having gone down:
BB: Look, Tom, I understand and appreciate your partnership with AG. It really seems as though you two work really well together. It is also obvious that he has nothing but your best interests at heart. But listen, some of the stuff he has told other players conflicts with the advice that doctors, trainers, and other employees have given them. Since these are people that are paid by the Patriots, it is in the organizations best interests to allow our players to only be treated by team employees. This is not a knock against you, nor is it a knock against AG. This is only to protect the team. With that said, effective immediately, we will only allow AG to treat you here on site. He will not be allowed to be on the sidelines or be taken to away games on the team planes, this is because he is not employed by the organization. Other players are free to use him, or any other provider they choose at the location of their office.
TB: Coach, I think this sucks, and I hate you for it. I hope John Thomase writes a scathing article suggesting that there is friction between you and I.
OR
TB: I understand, coach. It doesn’t mean I like it, but I understand that it is in the Patriots best interest to have only team employees treat the players. Like you, I only want the best for our organization.
I like to think that the second response is how it really went down.
Anyway, this is how I see it as having gone down:
BB: Look, Tom, I understand and appreciate your partnership with AG. It really seems as though you two work really well together. It is also obvious that he has nothing but your best interests at heart. But listen, some of the stuff he has told other players conflicts with the advice that doctors, trainers, and other employees have given them. Since these are people that are paid by the Patriots, it is in the organizations best interests to allow our players to only be treated by team employees. This is not a knock against you, nor is it a knock against AG. This is only to protect the team. With that said, effective immediately, we will only allow AG to treat you here on site. He will not be allowed to be on the sidelines or be taken to away games on the team planes, this is because he is not employed by the organization. Other players are free to use him, or any other provider they choose at the location of their office.
TB: Coach, I think this sucks, and I hate you for it. I hope John Thomase writes a scathing article suggesting that there is friction between you and I.
OR
TB: I understand, coach. It doesn’t mean I like it, but I understand that it is in the Patriots best interest to have only team employees treat the players. Like you, I only want the best for our organization.
I like to think that the second response is how it really went down.
There is only one real question here:
How does Brady feel about this? Which is to say:
Is he furious that his guru is being treated unfairly?
Or does he sympathize in any way w the position Guerrero is putting the coaching staff in?
Brady’s feelings here are really all that matters. If it’s the former, the Pats probably have a problem. If it’s the latter, they don’t and won’t.
Edit: Essentially what is posted right above me
How does Brady feel about this? Which is to say:
Is he furious that his guru is being treated unfairly?
Or does he sympathize in any way w the position Guerrero is putting the coaching staff in?
Brady’s feelings here are really all that matters. If it’s the former, the Pats probably have a problem. If it’s the latter, they don’t and won’t.
Edit: Essentially what is posted right above me
No, Brady's feelings don't matter, unless they lead to actions. Belichick probably does five things that piss people off every day before his second cup of coffee. It's part of his job. How many stories are there about Belichick shitting all over Brady on the practice field and in the film room? Belichick pissing off Brady is like the bedrock of their relationship. Both of them have always been professional enough to get past it - hell, they thrive on it - and there's little reason to think things will play out differently here.
OR
TB: Coach, this is my retirement plan you just kicked off the team. How am I going to convince people to keep buying TB12 anti-injury serum if you won't allow it in the stadium? Remember all those salary restructurings? Now what??
Obviously I'm mostly joking, but I wonder if this and now its subsequent public airing on espn.com have any effects on sales...
Bingo. Each one knows that the other is the best at what they do that either will ever encounter in their lives, and that each will be professionally poorer without the other. Brady is 40, not 14. There will be no "actions."
I thought the bolded was obvious from my statement.
As you say, there's no evidence that Brady and Belichick have ever had a serious disagreement. But at the same time, there's no evidence to the contrary either. During the JG trade, it occurred to me how we little we actually know about their relationship. All we have to go on with either of these guys is their news conferences, that one video from 2009 in A Football Life and periodic rants from Tom Brady Sr.
Think about that: we are witnessing the greatest QB and coach in the history of football. It's unfolded over 17 years. It's happened in the midst of a social media explosion ... and we seriously don't know if they've even had a single meal together.
None of which is to suggest that this is necessarily the end. But ego is a powerful motivator. And I would hope that before we start assigning professionalism and virtuous intentions to their motives, we pause and think for a minute about everything we've learned over the last few months about public figures and how little we actually know. Because we don't know shit.
Bedard's latest on the situation. Anyone want to bet that the Patriots starter referenced is Gronk?
- Over the last few years, Guerrero’s influence has grown inside the Patriots’ locker room, as he now treats about 20 Patriots players.
- As that influence increased, Guerrero became more emboldened in the advice he dispensed, and more adamant that when his instructions conflicted with that of the Patriots’ strength, training and medical staffs, the players were to follow his directives. This greatly agitated the Patriots’ staff.
- One example: a Patriots starter was told by Guerrero not to do squats. When the strength staff made that part of the player’s normal in-season workout, the player refused to do the exercise. That only added to the tension between the Patriots and Guerrero.
- In the early stages of the season, Belichick professionally informed Guerrero that the team wanted to keep everyone on the same page for the betterment of the franchise. Guerrero told a different account to many of his clients — one that painted Belichick in a poor light — which further damaged the relationship, perhaps to the point that it can’t be repaired.
- Guerrero is still allowed to treat Brady in the Patriots’ facility in a private room, but his appearance in other parts of the building is an intentional irritant to Belichick. Guerrero has traveled to the team’s locations to treat Brady on the quarterback’s dime.
- The situation has absolutely become a source of friction between Brady and Belichick. But unless Brady forces the issue and demands Guerrero’s reinstatement, no one believes it will affect the team on the field.
It was not.
I did not say that. For all I know, they have a serious disagreement twice a week. Whatever their relationship is like, it is certainly not hurting the team on the field.
FWIW, Gary Myers has reported that they have not.
I'm not trying to ascribe virtuous intentions. They have a long-standing professional relationship. It has been wildly successful. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors other what has been reported. I imagine over 17 years there have been a bunch of ups and downs. I'm skeptical that anything at this point is suddenly going to blow this up (from an ego / personality standpoint; Father Time is still undefeated).
Let’s all laugh at Manning for his partnership with Papa John while Tom backs this lunatic. Should’ve kept JG and dropped Tom after the season.
Countermanding instructions from the Pats training staff, bad-mouthing B.B. when B.B. tried to get everyone on the same page.
Guerrero can go fuck himself, and I really do not care what Tom wants.
Story elevated to a national platform —
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/12/22/report-patriots-player-refused-strength-staffs-orders-listened-to-guerrero-instead/
That was my initial thought, but whatever he's doing with Brady seems (though we don't know how much to ascribe to Guerrero) to be working in ways that nothing else in the history of the league has before. And since Brady is the single most indispensable player on the team and still the best football player in the world, and because he believes Guerrero is crucial to his success, it's hard to just tell Guerrero to screw.
Just not an easy situation, really, unless you just don't care what happens to Brady.
Brady is not going to fuck the team, its place in history or his place in history over something like this. I’d confidently call his bluff. In any case, the day TB runs this team, BB is out the door the next day — so pick your poison.
Some wags, though, will inevitably blame Tom’s so-so performance the past couple weeks on B.B. being insufficiently flexible. Rather than the Achilles or Tom just not playing up to his standards. So get ready for that.
