2017 Butler Watch: Love Me Tender

[DourDoerr]

Regardless of whether he is consulting with Revis, he is not in a position where he can make the kind of demands that skip the line of paying your dues while the team still has leverage unlike say, a Revis.

Agreed. Included those contracts just as an interesting (at least to me) sidelight. It's pretty clear that Revis resides in an entirely different universe and his first contract and play basically enabled his hardline negotiating stances throughout his career. 3 years into that first contract of 5 years, it was renegotiated and an entirely new contract was signed, but Revis had the hammer of youth, ability and FU money.

I'd be surprised if Butler didn't reach out (again, pure speculation), but he'd have to know that there's only so much of the Revis Experiment he can pull off. And even less so with the Patriots.

Thanks DrewDawg - I thought that was fairly lucid.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

I'm not sure I've seen it noted that if Butler had been drafted in, say, the second round, he'd still have one year on his rookie deal.

Take what he's made so far, add the 3.6 RFA offer sheet, divide by four, and you've got almost exactly what that 2nd round deal would have been.

It's not like he's getting fucked over, money wise.

I think if Pats don't sign Gilmore to that deal, public opinion is much more with the pats. As it is, everyone's saying Gilmore got Butler's money.

I think in the end Butler plays for the 1-year offer sheet and hits free agency.

 

[5dice]

I think in the end Butler plays for the 1-year offer sheet and hits free agency.

Unless he is then franchised which is a distinct possibility.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 2m2 minutes ago
Pats would be cool with getting a 1st rnd pick for Butler (they don't have a 1 or 2) I hear. Butler is telling teams he wants Gilmore $$

 

[E5 Yaz]

Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 5m5 minutes ago
Agent for Pats RFA CB Malcolm Butler is contacting teams trying to find one to part w/1st rnd pick to sign him (which is his RFA tender)...

 

[DJnVa]

Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 5m5 minutes ago
Agent for Pats RFA CB Malcolm Butler is contacting teams trying to find one to part w/1st rnd pick to sign him (which is his RFA tender)...

That sounds ominous.

I doubt he's gonna talk anyone into a mega-deal--they would have already been talking. And if it's an undermarket or "good" deal, then maybe NE matches.

He really wants to get paid this year.

EDIT: Just saw other tweet. Sounds like the dude is gone.

 

[E5 Yaz]

That sounds ominous.

I can see the Colts banner now: "Home of Super Bowl XXXXIX Champion"

 

[Van Everyman]

I don't blame him. As has been posted elsewhere and written by Curran, Butler is 27, an icon in some ways and one of the best players at his position for multiple years running – and he is essentially barred from getting paid by what he probably thinks amounts to a technicality. It's a bit more than that—he hasn't accrued the service time of guys who were drafted—but considering he's older than a guy like Hightower, you can understand why he'd be digging in

 

[DJnVa]

Yeah, I have no issues with him looking for a payday. Wish he'd stay, at least for a year, to play on what's looking like a ridiculously good team.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Hard to picture the team who will pay a first, plus $12+ mil a year and something like $30 mil in bonuses, isn't it? If it's a lot less Pats presumably match. Steelers fan/media talk is not insane but they don't spend like that often. Raiders could.

I get Butler wants to get paid and do not blame him a bit, but the system isn't working in his favor yet.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I'll go back to that Steelers reporter suggesting Pittsburgh do it. The No. 30 pick for an already-developed Butler isn't even that bad of a deal

Against their nature, though

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Jason La Canfora‏Verified account @JasonLaCanfora 2m2 minutes ago
Pats would be cool with getting a 1st rnd pick for Butler (they don't have a 1 or 2) I hear. Butler is telling teams he wants Gilmore $$

Butler is also making it clear his agent is an amateur. He wants URFA money and a team to give up a first round pick? Good luck.

 

[E5 Yaz]

This is all going to make for an awkward portion of the movie

 

[DJnVa]

This is all going to make for an awkward portion of the movie

Yeah, this is when I'll refill my popcorn.

 

[shoosh77]

I thought they did a movie where they yelled "show me the money" already.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Is an agent going out and looking for the best deal for his client supposed to be a threat or something? If Butler's agent wasn't doing that a week ago, he's a moron. If Bill isn't getting 32 or better back, he should force Butler's hand. Butler won't dare hold out for long, he just doesn't have the leverage.

Edit - Actually, don't think they can get the 32 back. But that value is what I'd be looking for. Otherwise, he stays and plays.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Is an agent going out and looking for the best deal for his client supposed to be a threat or something? If Butler's agent wasn't doing that a week ago, he's a moron. Honestly, if Bill isn't getting 32 or better back, he should force Butler's hand. He won't dare holdout for long.

His agent also was reported yesterday to have not talked to the Patriots in a year and has no other real clients, so it appears his agent is not ready for this and mishandling it.

Not saying he needs to go back to the Pats but things don't add up. Sounds like his agent needs every dime out of his only client.

 

[Ed Hillel]

His agent also was reported yesterday to have not talked to the Patriots in a year and has no other real clients, so it appears his agent is not ready for this and mishandling it.

Not saying he needs to go back to the Pats but things don't add up. Sounds like his agent needs every dime out of his only client.

The same idiot issued a statement saying "we never have and are not asking for the moon," and then he demands 13 million two days later. The agent alone is probably scaring teams off now.

 

[jsinger121]

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
Source tells me Butler & his camp remain extremely frustrated by Pats position & Gilmore signing. Courting offers elsewhere. Wants new home

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
Source tells me Butler & his camp remain extremely frustrated by Pats position & Gilmore signing. Courting offers elsewhere. Wants new home

Good luck finding a team to forfeit a first rounder and $13m a year. We either keep Butler or get a first round pick. Poor Patriots.

 

[DJnVa]

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
Source tells me Butler & his camp remain extremely frustrated by Pats position & Gilmore signing. Courting offers elsewhere. Wants new home

Their position is that he's a RFA, not UFA.

 

[Saints Rest]

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
Source tells me Butler & his camp remain extremely frustrated by Pats position & Gilmore signing. Courting offers elsewhere. Wants new home

It seems like the Pats negotiating strategy, almost across the board is: "Don't let us tell you what you are worth; let the market to that. If the market tells us something beyond what we think, we are happy to consider that information in working out a deal with you."
The issue here is that Butler (and more likely his agent) simply don't know enough about the market to understand that Gilmore money is not applicable in Malcolm's case. Thus the Pats have no problem with Butler and his agent talking to other teams. In fact, they likely welcome the fact that other teams will be the bad cop: telling him/them that they are not going to see that contract at this time.

 

[JimD]

I feel bad for Malcolm - the loyalty to his buddy is admirable, but Simpson is quite possibly going to cost him millions before this is all said and done. He really should have secured professional representation two years ago.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
Source tells me Butler & his camp remain extremely frustrated by Pats position & Gilmore signing. Courting offers elsewhere. Wants new home

Reports like this make the Gilmore signing that much smarter.

 

[InstaFace]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the compensation we'd get if another team signs him away this year (i.e., signer's 1st round pick) and the compensation we'd get if he signs the tender, plays out 2017, and then another team signs him away as a UFA? Supposing he gets, say, $12M/year in the latter case.

 

[DJnVa]

I feel bad for Malcolm - the loyalty to his buddy is admirable, but Simpson is quite possibly going to cost him millions before this is all said and done. He really should have secured professional representation two years ago.

I mean, he might not actually. Butler is either going to get the offer he's seeking this year (which hasn't happened in 10+ years--a team signing someone and giving up the pick) or he's going to play for the tender.

 

[DJnVa]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the compensation we'd get if another team signs him away this year (i.e., signer's 1st round pick) and the compensation we'd get if he signs the tender, plays out 2017, and then another team signs him away as a UFA? Supposing he gets, say, $12M/year in the latter case.

No way to know. The compensatory picks are based on not only FA you lose, but FAs you sign, in the aggregate.

Suffice to say, it ain't gonna be a first rounder.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Good luck finding a team to forfeit a first rounder and $13m a year. We either keep Butler or get a first round pick. Poor Patriots.

Also good luck trying to win some kind of media/pr battle, which BB couldn't give two shits about.

 

[southshoresoxfan]

No way to know. The compensatory picks are based on not only FA you lose, but FAs you sign, in the aggregate.

Suffice to say, it ain't gonna be a first rounder.

A player of Butlers ilk would in all likelihood be a third rd comp pick...thats assuming Pats dont make a large ish splash again w someone elses UFA.

 

[SumnerH]

Can someone explain to me the difference between the compensation we'd get if another team signs him away this year (i.e., signer's 1st round pick) and the compensation we'd get if he signs the tender, plays out 2017, and then another team signs him away as a UFA? Supposing he gets, say, $12M/year in the latter case.

Compensation in the latter case is not public record AFAIK, it's an NFL-internal algorithm that depends on how many other FA leave the Patriots and how many the Pats sign and for what amounts, as well as the value of FA signed by other teams and other factors.

The highest possible is a 3rd-rounder, which is likely if Butler left and the Pats didn't sign any significant FA.

http://overthecap.com/the-basics-and-methodology-of-projecting-the-nfls-compensatory-draft-picks/ has an attempt at reverse-engineering the rules.

 

[snowmanny]

Well if the trade really was Butler for Cooks (give or take a Chauffeur) and if NO was going to sign Butler to a long-term contract (the ifs are starting to pile up) and Cooks is worth a first, then theoretically Butler is worth a first and a contract. So hypothetically (cubed, at this point), his agent might think someone will actually tender him an offer; but then again the logical team to do that in that scenario would have been NO, and of course they haven't.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Michael Giardi‏Verified account @MikeGiardi 4m4 minutes ago
Source tells me Butler & his camp remain extremely frustrated by Pats position & Gilmore signing. Courting offers elsewhere. Wants new home

This news seems to imply they just started talking to teams about getting a deal. They should have been doing this immediately during the tampering period.

So we go from they haven't spoken to the Pats in a year, then after being called out they demand URFA agent money, now they're pissed and the his agent started doing his actual job as an agent a week later.

At least that's what their leaks to the media indicate, which is coming directly from their camp. Either his agent is horrible at being an agent or he's horrible with the media, or both.

 

[TheoShmeo]

The agent may indeed suck at his job.

But the net result for the Pats seems bad to me if Butler goes elsewhere and they get the pick. That is, unless they view Gilmore as the superior corner. Or would rather have Gilmore and a 1st round pick than Butler.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

The agent may indeed suck at his job.

But the net result for the Pats seems bad to me if Butler goes elsewhere and they get the pick. That is, unless they view Gilmore as the superior corner. Or would rather have Gilmore and a 1st round pick than Butler.

Or the third scenario is they would rather have both in 2017 and settle for a 3rd round compensatory pick if he walks. (Assuming they would, you never know what they'll end up with.)

Personally I want the third option as that gives the Pats the best chance of winning this year with sacrafising the future.

 

[TheoShmeo]

I'd sign up for that third scenario. But I wonder if Butler would sit out a la Mankins. It seems like the relationship might be so sour as to at least make that possible.

PS: on the one hand, I trust Bill's talent evaluation 100x more than mine. On the other, Malcolm does seem like a better corner to me. I have clearly seen more of him than Gilmore but damn 21 is a good cover guy and tackler. I had the pleasure of watching the NFL super bowl DVD this weekend and was struck by how many great plays he made over the course of the season. Not that it was news but it still was a pretty graphic reminder. I hope there's something in Gilmore that BB and Matt see that lead them to conclude that he's at least as good as Butler.

 

[Devizier]

I don't see what the crocodile tears about Butler's agent are about. His situation isn't really the fault of his agent, but a product of the CBA. Contrary to what other people think, I see the agent stirring the pot as a beneficial thing for Butler's interests. It reminds needy teams that he's on the market, which might be the best shot at getting an RFA tender immediately.

Odds are very long that he'll get anything better than an extension would guarantee but stranger things have happened.

 

[sodenj5]

Reports like this make the Gilmore signing that much smarter.

Um, isn't the Gilmore signing the cause of this friction? If the Pats didn't go outside of the organisation to sign a corner to big free agent dollars, Butler likely signs his tender and plays this year without too much fuss. Now he likely wants Gilmore's deal or more. Not sure if I would classify that as a "smart" move.

I suppose the Pats hold all the leverage in 2017, as he can only really sign his tender or sit out if NE isn't going to negotiate an extension. As an observer, it seems needlessly ruthless.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Um, isn't the Gilmore signing the cause of this friction? If the Pats didn't go outside of the organisation to sign a corner to big free agent dollars, Butler likely signs his tender and plays this year without too much fuss. Now he likely wants Gilmore's deal or more. Not sure if I would classify that as a "smart" move.

The Patriots had to do something though and not go into the season with 1 great CB and a bunch of 3rd/4th CBs. If they give Logan Ryan 10 million a year, does it cause the same friction?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Um, isn't the Gilmore signing the cause of this friction? If the Pats didn't go outside of the organisation to sign a corner to big free agent dollars, Butler likely signs his tender and plays this year without too much fuss. Now he likely wants Gilmore's deal or more. Not sure if I would classify that as a "smart" move.

I suppose the Pats hold all the leverage in 2017, as he can only really sign his tender or sit out if NE isn't going to negotiate an extension. As an observer, it seems needlessly ruthless.

You're wrong.

Butler wanted a contract. He wasn't signing his tender without negotiating a new one with the Patriots or another team. This is no different then any other holdout. Other than an anonymously sourced tweet saying that Gilmore's contract was the issue (as well as implying his agent just started talking to other teams, which is clearly bullshit) no world exists where Butler quietly accepts the tender. There's been Butler contract grumbling for a while.

 

[sodenj5]

You're wrong.

Butler wanted a contract. He wasn't signing his tender without negotiating a new one with the Patriots or another team. This is no different then any other holdout. Other than an anonymous tweet saying so (as well as implying his agent just started talking to other teams, which is clearly bullshit) no world exists where Butler quietly accepts the tender. There's been Butler contract grumbling for a while.

Could be true. The guy is definitely underpaid, and as other's have said, that's not NE's fault or anyone else's. It just seems odd that NE is taking such a hard line stance on a guy they got for peanuts and developed into a top-flight CB. In terms of pure football economics, it makes sense to extract maximum value from the player. That doesn't mean it isn't shitty.

 

[Toe Nash]

I don't see what the crocodile tears about Butler's agent are about. His situation isn't really the fault of his agent, but a product of the CBA. Contrary to what other people think, I see the agent stirring the pot as a beneficial thing for Butler's interests. It reminds needy teams that he's on the market, which might be the best shot at getting an RFA tender immediately.

Odds are very long that he'll get anything better than an extension would guarantee but stranger things have happened.

I agree with this. His agent may be inexperienced, but...what would a good agent do in this situation? Try to get another team to offer sheet him to get a big deal now, and if not, probably just sign the tender and hope he doesn't get hurt and can get a big deal next year? Wake me up if he hasn't signed the tender at the June deadline.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Um, isn't the Gilmore signing the cause of this friction? If the Pats didn't go outside of the organisation to sign a corner to big free agent dollars, Butler likely signs his tender and plays this year without too much fuss.

Based on...? If you're wrong and he holds out, Pats are in trouble in that scenario. As it stands, they are fine and Butler sitting out would hurt him far more than the Pats. If he tries that, his agent is a bigger idiot than we think now.

Bill decided he'd rather pay top dollar to a 26-year old Stephon Gilmore than a 28-year old Butler next season. And he still has Butler as an asset in 2017, whether he plays or gets traded. As much as I like Butler, this is shrewd business.

That doesn't mean it isn't shitty.

lol please. Is it shitty when Suh doesn't pay 7 million back to the Dolphins each year to match his level of play? That's business.

 

[Ed Hillel]

DP

 

[FelixMantilla]

Butler is six months older than Gilmore.

Butler 3/21/90, Gilmore 9/19/90.

 

[BigJimEd]

Um, isn't the Gilmore signing the cause of this friction? If the Pats didn't go outside of the organisation to sign a corner to big free agent dollars, Butler likely signs his tender and plays this year without too much fuss. Now he likely wants Gilmore's deal or more. Not sure if I would classify that as a "smart" move.

I suppose the Pats hold all the leverage in 2017, as he can only really sign his tender or sit out if NE isn't going to negotiate an extension. As an observer, it seems needlessly ruthless.

I don't think Butler would be happy playing under the tender no matter what. Most players in his situation aren't. I don't think that has anything to do with Gilmore.

The Gilmore signing may have an effect on long term negotiations though. Butler may take that personally. And might not settle for less.

Of course, he may not have anyway. We don't know what either side was offering and asking. Pats may have felt they needed to sign Gilmore in case they lost both Butler and Ryan.

This is the way the CBA works. It may seem unfair to Butler and probably is. On the flip side, as others have pointed out, if he was a mid round pick with a standard 4 year deal, he'd be playing for less.

Just a tough situation for him personally.

 

[MarkBT]

I agree with this. His agent may be inexperienced, but...what would a good agent do in this situation? Try to get another team to offer sheet him to get a big deal now, and if not, probably just sign the tender and hope he doesn't get hurt and can get a big deal next year? Wake me up if he hasn't signed the tender at the June deadline.

Realizing RFA's have limited leverage (and that teams rarely, if ever, give up a pick to sign an RFA), a *good* agent would've seen this situation coming, and anticipated the backup plans they seem to just be exploring now.

1) Negotiating an extension last offseason, for a shortened amount of years @ discounted rate. Not what Butler necessarily *wanted*, but what they had the leverage to negotiate at the time. Butler gets some financial security up front, and he's out of the contract by age 29-30, to go for one more payday.

2) Identifying teams that would be interested trading for and extending Butler (this is where it helps to have an agent who's plugged in), and finding out what the Pats' asking price might be for such a trade.

It seems like Butler and agent just didn't appreciate the unique lack of leverage teams have in RFA situations last offseason, and still aren't willing to accept them now.

 

[Van Everyman]

Peter King:

The Patriots couldn’t trade Butler to the Saints because he’s not signed; he has to sign the Patriots’ first-round-tender offer of one year and $3.91 million before New England can trade him. Since the Patriots signed ex-Bill Stephon Gilmore as a number one corner, the Patriots could sign and trade Butler, which I still think is the most likely scenario. If that happens, I believe the Pats wouldn’t be as interested in getting a first-round pick in return as in getting, say, second- and third-round picks. So instead of dealing with the corner-needy Saints for a first-rounder, I bet New England asks for picks 42 and 76 in return, since this is a rich defensive draft and the Pats have zero picks in the top 70.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/03/13/nfl-free-agency-patriots-browns-49ers-peter-king

 

[Leather]

Forgive the possibly dumb question, but why wouldn't the Pats want a 1st that they could trade for more, possibly better, lower picks than take non-equal value?

 

[BaseballJones]

I don't think Butler would be happy playing under the tender no matter what. Most players in his situation aren't. I don't think that has anything to do with Gilmore.

The Gilmore signing may have an effect on long term negotiations though. Butler may take that personally. And might not settle for less.

Of course, he may not have anyway. We don't know what either side was offering and asking. Pats may have felt they needed to sign Gilmore in case they lost both Butler and Ryan.

This is the way the CBA works. It may seem unfair to Butler and probably is. On the flip side, as others have pointed out, if he was a mid round pick with a standard 4 year deal, he'd be playing for less.

Just a tough situation for him personally.

"Tough situation" being incredibly relative. I don't think too many people would mind having to be a world famous athlete "stuck" making $4 million this upcoming year.

 

[shoosh77]

Peter King:



http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/03/13/nfl-free-agency-patriots-browns-49ers-peter-king

Thanks for the link. As a side note, there are definitely betters ways to start a Monday than Peter Kings face right on your screen combined with his voice, which is perfect for print...