I’d have been tempted to kick the tires on Brian Flores, which would have made things really interesting all around. Arians maybe?This might be the time that philosophy is the wrong play.
But I don’t believe in lopping heads for its own sake.
I’d have been tempted to kick the tires on Brian Flores, which would have made things really interesting all around. Arians maybe?This might be the time that philosophy is the wrong play.
The problem is you’re playing a Rooney. I don’t have many issues with how Tomlin handles the locker room. I would have been tempted to fire him because I don’t think he’s the best of in-game coaches. It’s tiring to watch Tomlin and staff test Einstein’s mantra on insanity. In my hell, they continually line up in a zone defense while Brady gains 9 yards at a clip on quick slants. Tomlin is simply not great at adapting during a game. The Brown fiasco is the price for giving your players a long leash, but on balance, I think players like playing for a coach who isn’t on them constantly as long as they’re showing up and doing their jobs.We’ll see. If things don’t change, nobody is minding the store.
Playing a Rooney for a second, I’d have been tempted to fire Tomlin and call Roethlisberger in to underscore that he works for me not vice versa. Be a good teammate and stay in your lane.
But firing people is not a solution unless you have somebody in the wings who would be better. And historically, the Steelers are loathe to churn HCs.
Why would players make public declarations after that?Dez Bryant is the same age, and he tore his achilles last year with the Saints in his second practice. He held out for a one-year, 1.25m contract.
I'm not excusing him for his behavior, and I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for him. I'm pretty sure AB feels the same.
Colbert came out three weeks ago and called Roethlisberger the unquestioned leader of the team. They're going to give Big Ben an extension. Maybe I am missing it, but I haven't heard anyone else in support. James Harrison said he didn't know how unprepared the Steelers were under Tomlin until he played in new England. If the problems really don't extend beyond Brown, then where are all the voices in support of Tomlin and Big Ben?
I don’t follow any other team than the Patriots much (what I read here and a sojourn over to a message board like Steelerfury when things get to boiling over about another team). Anyway, I was surprised on NFL Network this morning to hear the talking heads going on about Ben and Eli, QBs of two teams that have lost big offensive talent. They were saying that Eli has never thrown teammates under the bus (Ben has) but Eli is not strong enough to “reel in” a teammate when he’s straying (OBJ). I thought they laid off that stuff, or, the Ben stuff is so much out there that they can’t ignore it?Why would players make public declarations after that?
I’m not clear about what you think the reason was for Brown demanding a trade. Did Brown want out because he didn’t like how Ben treated him, how Tomlin treated the situation (I don’t think it was silly for him to punish Brown for walking out of practice before the last game and not showing up again), because he was concerned the $70M he’s earned so far wouldn’t carry him the rest of his life, or what?
To emphasize: I don’t think the serious problems extend beyond Brown and Bell (and with Bell it was primarily that he kept teasing everyone - including his teammates - about his return). There will always be prima donnas and personality conflicts, but that locker room did just fine before and it will again. At the end of the day, they know they have to show up to do their jobs and get over the little stuff. That wasn’t Tomlin’s first year, it was his 12th. It’s an anomaly, not a trend or indicative of something deeper. (The issue with Tomlin is whether he’ll ever substantially improve as an in-game coach. THAT is the criticism I have of him and why I wouldn’t have minded had they cut bait.)
Since it’s a Steeler topic: I thought Colbert’s comment was plain stupid, and disrespectful to all the other guys that do their jobs as the professionals they’re supposed to be. Stupid. However, Brown committed his mutiny before that and long after it was known Brown was on the block, so I’m not sure why you’re mentioning it here.
James Harrison has made it his post-NFL career mission to bad-mouth the Steelers, so his comments don’t surprise me. He was cut because he wanted it, because he didn’t like not getting starting reps ahead of Dupree and Watt. He might not have liked it, but it was completely justified to have him backing up the other two. Something obviously happened behind the scenes, or maybe it was just JH being JH. After all, the motivation in his persona is all about being disrespected. That’s what motivated him throughout his career. Oh well. As a fan, I disagree with the continual negative comments, which make him luck petty, but cut him a break. He did a lot for that franchise.
As for Ben, I find the stories that he’s a prima donna completely plausible. The drama a few years ago when he claimed he might retire was annoying. I’m sure he wasn’t just an innocent bystander in the Brown situation. But he apparently does the things that don’t cause a coach to have to act publicly, such as showing up on time and doing one’s job. If he would have walked out and done the same thing Brown did, they’d have traded him, too. The Steelers wouldn’t have had to just settle for the return of getting him off the roster, though, because as a QB he’s immensely more valuable. That’s life in the NFL. I think Roethlisberger has to do better. I suspect his role in his was similar to my kids, when one instigates enough so that the other throws a punch, then pretends he was attacked for no reason. His transparent comments feigning confusion over Brown throwing a football at him seem slightly fabricated. The drama is strong in that one. But he shows up on time, does his job, and is far and away the most valuable player on the team. #NFLlife
Sorry for the length. Long train ride.
It's weird being a Patriots fan and trying to interpret all this.I don’t follow any other team than the Patriots much (what I read here and a sojourn over to a message board like Steelerfury when things get to boiling over about another team). Anyway, I was surprised on NFL Network this morning to hear the talking heads going on about Ben and Eli, QBs of two teams that have lost big offensive talent. They were saying that Eli has never thrown teammates under the bus (Ben has) but Eli is not strong enough to “reel in” a teammate when he’s straying (OBJ). I thought they laid off that stuff, or, the Ben stuff is so much out there that they can’t ignore it?
Tomlin's infinity leashes with AB and Bell produced the toxic events the last two years. I don't think Tomlin will change the approach that's produced this fiasco, given Colbert's doubling down on the stratification in that locker room with his comments regarding the alleged rapist.Why would players make public declarations after that?
I’m not clear about what you think the reason was for Brown demanding a trade. Did Brown want out because he didn’t like how Ben treated him, how Tomlin treated the situation (I don’t think it was silly for him to punish Brown for walking out of practice before the last game and not showing up again), because he was concerned the $70M he’s earned so far wouldn’t carry him the rest of his life, or what?
To emphasize: I don’t think the serious problems extend beyond Brown and Bell (and with Bell it was primarily that he kept teasing everyone - including his teammates - about his return). There will always be prima donnas and personality conflicts, but that locker room did just fine before and it will again. At the end of the day, they know they have to show up to do their jobs and get over the little stuff. That wasn’t Tomlin’s first year, it was his 12th. It’s an anomaly, not a trend or indicative of something deeper. (The issue with Tomlin is whether he’ll ever substantially improve as an in-game coach. THAT is the criticism I have of him and why I wouldn’t have minded had they cut bait.)
Since it’s a Steeler topic: I thought Colbert’s comment was plain stupid, and disrespectful to all the other guys that do their jobs as the professionals they’re supposed to be. Stupid. However, Brown committed his mutiny before that and long after it was known Brown was on the block, so I’m not sure why you’re mentioning it here.
James Harrison has made it his post-NFL career mission to bad-mouth the Steelers, so his comments don’t surprise me. He was cut because he wanted it, because he didn’t like not getting starting reps ahead of Dupree and Watt. He might not have liked it, but it was completely justified to have him backing up the other two. Something obviously happened behind the scenes, or maybe it was just JH being JH. After all, the motivation in his persona is all about being disrespected. That’s what motivated him throughout his career. Oh well. As a fan, I disagree with the continual negative comments, which make him luck petty, but cut him a break. He did a lot for that franchise.
As for Ben, I find the stories that he’s a prima donna completely plausible. The drama a few years ago when he claimed he might retire was annoying. I’m sure he wasn’t just an innocent bystander in the Brown situation. But he apparently does the things that don’t cause a coach to have to act publicly, such as showing up on time and doing one’s job. If he would have walked out and done the same thing Brown did, they’d have traded him, too. The Steelers wouldn’t have had to just settle for the return of getting him off the roster, though, because as a QB he’s immensely more valuable. That’s life in the NFL. I think Roethlisberger has to do better. I suspect his role in his was similar to my kids, when one instigates enough so that the other throws a punch, then pretends he was attacked for no reason. His transparent comments feigning confusion over Brown throwing a football at him seem slightly fabricated. The drama is strong in that one. But he shows up on time, does his job, and is far and away the most valuable player on the team. #NFLlife
Sorry for the length. Long train ride.
I meant there were no players responding to Colbert's praise of Ben Roethlisberger.Why would players make public declarations after that?
I’m not clear about what you think the reason was for Brown demanding a trade. Did Brown want out because he didn’t like how Ben treated him, how Tomlin treated the situation (I don’t think it was silly for him to punish Brown for walking out of practice before the last game and not showing up again), because he was concerned the $70M he’s earned so far wouldn’t carry him the rest of his life, or what?
To emphasize: I don’t think the serious problems extend beyond Brown and Bell (and with Bell it was primarily that he kept teasing everyone - including his teammates - about his return). There will always be prima donnas and personality conflicts, but that locker room did just fine before and it will again. At the end of the day, they know they have to show up to do their jobs and get over the little stuff. That wasn’t Tomlin’s first year, it was his 12th. It’s an anomaly, not a trend or indicative of something deeper. (The issue with Tomlin is whether he’ll ever substantially improve as an in-game coach. THAT is the criticism I have of him and why I wouldn’t have minded had they cut bait.)
Since it’s a Steeler topic: I thought Colbert’s comment was plain stupid, and disrespectful to all the other guys that do their jobs as the professionals they’re supposed to be. Stupid. However, Brown committed his mutiny before that and long after it was known Brown was on the block, so I’m not sure why you’re mentioning it here.
James Harrison has made it his post-NFL career mission to bad-mouth the Steelers, so his comments don’t surprise me. He was cut because he wanted it, because he didn’t like not getting starting reps ahead of Dupree and Watt. He might not have liked it, but it was completely justified to have him backing up the other two. Something obviously happened behind the scenes, or maybe it was just JH being JH. After all, the motivation in his persona is all about being disrespected. That’s what motivated him throughout his career. Oh well. As a fan, I disagree with the continual negative comments, which make him luck petty, but cut him a break. He did a lot for that franchise.
As for Ben, I find the stories that he’s a prima donna completely plausible. The drama a few years ago when he claimed he might retire was annoying. I’m sure he wasn’t just an innocent bystander in the Brown situation. But he apparently does the things that don’t cause a coach to have to act publicly, such as showing up on time and doing one’s job. If he would have walked out and done the same thing Brown did, they’d have traded him, too. The Steelers wouldn’t have had to just settle for the return of getting him off the roster, though, because as a QB he’s immensely more valuable. That’s life in the NFL. I think Roethlisberger has to do better. I suspect his role in his was similar to my kids, when one instigates enough so that the other throws a punch, then pretends he was attacked for no reason. His transparent comments feigning confusion over Brown throwing a football at him seem slightly fabricated. The drama is strong in that one. But he shows up on time, does his job, and is far and away the most valuable player on the team. #NFLlife
Sorry for the length. Long train ride.
I disagree in the criticism of Tomlin’s style. The players are paid professionals, and it’s perfectly reasonable to expect them to show up prepared and ready to do their jobs without micromanagement. Call me crazy, but most adults justifiably appreciate that sort of treatment. If they take advantage of the situation, then that’s on them. I can’t be the only one who approaches my own job, and by extension the jobs of NFL players this way.Tomlin's infinity leashes with AB and Bell produced the toxic events the last two years. I don't think Tomlin will change the approach that's produced this fiasco...
I don't agree with this. At most jobs, including the NFL, you are expected to be at work on time and there are consequences if you are not. And most adults 100% do not appreciate treatment where a select few employees don't have to follow the rules, but the rest do. Go to just about any workplace and the easiest way to kill morale is to pick favorites and have a separate set of rules and discipline for them.I disagree in the criticism of Tomlin’s style. The players are paid professionals, and it’s perfectly reasonable to expect them to show up prepared and ready to do their jobs without micromanagement. Call me crazy, but most adults justifiably appreciate that sort of treatment. If they take advantage of the situation, then that’s on them. I can’t be the only one who approaches my own job, and by extension the jobs of NFL players this way.
Right. Yes, they are paid professionals, and yes, it is reasonable to expect them to show up prepared and ready to do their jobs... but when they DON'T - which is clearly what happened with Brown - Tomlin did NOTHING until it was too late.I don't agree with this. At most jobs, including the NFL, you are expected to be at work on time and there are consequences if you are not. And most adults 100% do not appreciate treatment where a select few employees don't have to follow the rules, but the rest do. Go to just about any workplace and the easiest way to kill morale is to pick favorites and have a separate set of rules and discipline for them.
I agree with what you wrote, but you’re describing Brown. Roethlisberger apparently always shows up to meetings and follows the team rules.I don't agree with this. At most jobs, including the NFL, you are expected to be at work on time and there are consequences if you are not. And most adults 100% do not appreciate treatment where a select few employees don't have to follow the rules, but the rest do. Go to just about any workplace and the easiest way to kill morale is to pick favorites and have a separate set of rules and discipline for them.
Maybe, but maybe not. It’s hard to know whether he should be debited because he waited until Brown was a monster that couldn’t be contained or whether he should be credited for dealing with the situation for several years when they were able to extract massive on-field production from him. I think others contributed to the problem, but this is an Antonio Brown personality trait that led to the final outcome.Right. Yes, they are paid professionals, and yes, it is reasonable to expect them to show up prepared and ready to do their jobs... but when they DON'T - which is clearly what happened with Brown - Tomlin did NOTHING until it was too late.
I guess. AB produced, but in his 8 years as a starter the Steelers won 3 playoff games. Seems to be a pretty universal feeling that the Steelers have come up short over that time frame.Maybe, but maybe not. It’s hard to know whether he should be debited because he waited until Brown was a monster that couldn’t be contained or whether he should be credited for dealing with the situation for several years when they were able to extract massive on-field production from him. I think others contributed to the problem, but this is an Antonio Brown personality trait that led to the final outcome.
Among those ignorant of the limits in analyzing small sample sizes, perhaps. Also, it was 5 wins in 11 games spread out over 8 years.I guess. AB produced, but in his 8 years as a starter the Steelers won 3 playoff games. Seems to be a pretty universal feeling that the Steelers have come up short over that time frame.
Yeah I wasn't counting 2010 since AB was like their 4th or 5th receiver behind Ward, Sanders, Mike Wallace, and Randle-El.Among those ignorant of the limits in analyzing small sample sizes, perhaps. Also, it was 5 wins in 11 games spread out over 8 years.
Again - Did Tomlin’s handling of Brown extend Brown’s usefulness to the team or shorten it? The Tootsie Pop Owl doesn’t know, either.
This is nuts. Considering that the Steelers have never gone the big-name FA route, that the return on draft picks obtained in a hypothetical 2016 trade would have been highly unlikely to immediately produce at an All-Pro rate, and that the numbers I’m about to present are historic, I think it’s safe to say that 200+ catches, 2,900 receiving yards, and 24 TDs in 29 games over those 2 years was far more than whatever would have replaced him in a trade. There’s a zero percent chance they would have been better on the field without him. Death is less certain. To wit, there’s a zero percent chance they will be better on the field without him in 2019. However, the walkout before Week 17 and all the subsequent earth-scorching changed the calculus.Yeah I wasn't counting 2010 since AB was like their 4th or 5th receiver behind Ward, Sanders, Mike Wallace, and Randle-El.
Tomlin might have extended AB's usefulness, but the point is that it didn't lead to any meaningful team success. The FB live thing happened after the 2016 season AFCCG. The Steelers won precisely zero playoff games after that point with AB.
Yes, it is SSS. But even if they got 2 more good years out of AB - it didn't do them any good, and it might have even cost them.
I don't think it's fair to hold Brown responsible when most of their issues are on the defensive side. It's not like they struggled to score; their secondary has been a disaster. That's not on Brown.They wouldn’t have replaced the production, no. Obviously. But they might have had better chemistry and more team success.
I agree with this but think the point still stands. If they had traded him then they would have had picks and money to spend.I don't think it's fair to hold Brown responsible when most of their issues are on the defensive side. It's not like they struggled to score; their secondary has been a disaster. That's not on Brown.
I'm all for moving overpaid receivers but Brown has been criminally underpaid basically his entire career. This year his dead money hit for Pittsburgh ($21.12 MM) will be more than 50% higher than his cap hit any year he actually played for them (max: $13.62 MM). Brown's not the issue. It's a Bill Jamesism that blaming your best players for the organization's failures is something dysfunctional teams do.I agree with this but think the point still stands. If they had traded him then they would have had picks and money to spend.
In hindsight l think it is obvious the Steelers should have moved him then. But that's with the benefit of hindsight, I don't know enough details to know if they should have recognized it at the time.
He was two years into a 4/68M contract when he was traded. He was given a 5-year contract extension a mere two years into his career worth a 8.5M average annually. He was paid quite nicely compared to the market for a WR of his caliber. Anyway, the idea that his 2017 meltdown was caused by financial concern is bullshit. That was a narrative fabricated after the fact by Brown.I'm all for moving overpaid receivers but Brown has been criminally underpaid basically his entire career. This year his dead money hit for Pittsburgh ($21.12 MM) will be more than 50% higher than his cap hit any year he actually played for them (max: $13.62 MM). Brown's not the issue. It's a Bill Jamesism that blaming your best players for the organization's failures is something dysfunctional teams do.
Damn, if this is how you treat allies of your arguments, I don't want to disagree with you.He was two years into a 4/68M contract when he was traded. He was given a 5-year contract extension a mere two years into his career worth a 8.5M average annually. He was paid quite nicely compared to the market for a WR of his caliber. Anyway, the idea that his 2017 meltdown was caused by financial concern is bullshit. That was a narrative fabricated after the fact by Brown.
The 2019 dead money hit is a factor of converting past roster bonuses and base salary to signing bonuses, so they could free up cap space and sign/retain more of their own players. Also, his maximum payment from the team in any given year was just short of 20M in 2017.
Who blamed Brown for the Steelers’ failures in 2018? Just name a couple people in the organization who did this. Good luck, because that’s not what happened. Is it Jamesian to make things up? Don’t cite Bill James if you’re going to mangle information. It’s blasphemous.
I believe it because I want it to be true.So, a guy named Josh Harris who played in just five games in his NFL career, all with the 2014 Steelers says that Ben Roethlisberger intentionally fumbled at the end of a 2014 game in a fit of pique at Todd Haley calling for a running play instead of a kneel down.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/03/17/ex-steeler-says-roethlisberger-once-fumbled-on-purpose-to-spite-todd-haley/
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26314002/bell-roethlisberger-wants-win-wayBell took some shots at Big Ben in an SI article:
--said Ben was a factor in him leaving (but not only factor).
--said he didn't feel like Ben treated other players like they were on the same level.
--said Ben allows his preferences to guide how he plays (if he's mad at receiver, he may not throw him the ball as often).
Not for nothing but I’m pretty sure he didn’t have more touches than Bell.You're starting to see the real issue with Brown. He was the undisputed king of touches for a long time, usually at least 50% more than Bell and sometimes close to double the second place guy. Not to mention dominating all WR touches. That changed this year to a more even split with JuJu. And he did not like that one bit.
Sorry meant receiving targets.Not for nothing but I’m pretty sure he didn’t have more touches than Bell.
He is quintessential definition of a locker room cancer.Antonio Brown is really covering himself in glory here. He's still at it today.