2023-2024 General NBA Season Thread

Euclis20

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I will die on this hill:
It seemed like Bam was poised to become an all-NBA level guy a few years ago, but his offensive production has completely stalled (points per 36 has barely moved over the last 3 years) while his efficiency has steadily declined (TS% has gone from .626 in 2021 to .608 to .592 down to .569 this year, even though he's the Heat's 3rd scorer and never the focus of opposing defenses). He's basically turned into a smaller Dwight Howard, which is fine (I can count on one hand the number of players that are better defensively) but feels like a major disappointment on offense. Particularly in the playoffs, where both his volume and efficiency tend to take an Embiid-esque drop.
 

RorschachsMask

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Bam an interesting case study. He’s legitimately one of the best switch bigs I’ve ever seen, absolutely awesome at it. But then there’s nobody to protect the rim when he switches lol.

There’s a lot of debate about which is more valuable, an elite rim protecting big, or an elite switch big. Matter of preference, I guess.
 

lars10

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I get that KP has availability issues, so I don't make a huge deal about it. But when he's on the floor, the gap between him and Bam/Barnes is a chasm. He's an elite offensive player who's also figured out how to maximize what he does defensively.

He gets treated like a complementary guy who helps an offense be good, when he's closer to an All-NBA performer on that end imo.
There have been several games where KP was the best player on the floor.. on a team of what could really be 5 all stars...and in other instances he's been almost singularly responsible for turning what could have been a loss into a win.
 

Euclis20

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Doc played and developed Tyrese Maxey.
Mazz has played and developed Sam Hauser? Anyone else?
As long as we're giving Doc credit for Maxey (who took his biggest leap this year after Doc left, and after Doc inexplicably brought him off the bench for 20 games last year), then Joe gets some credit for Tatum, who is still the youngest member of the Celtics 9 man rotation.
 

Euclis20

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How does he get credit for Tatum? I don't follow.
Emphasis on some credit for Tatum. He joined the Celtics in 2019 just before Tatum took his leap, and he's been the HC for Tatum's age 24 and 25 seasons. He clearly played a role in his development, it's just a question of how much.

It's more of a criticism of Rivers getting credit for Maxey, because I know Sixers fans were really pissed without Doc handled him (specifically sending him to the bench last year, a crazy thing to do to a 22 year old on a sky high trajectory and absolutely one of those players that's are better starting than on the bench per his splits), and Maxey is currently favored against the field to win MIP, notably without Doc.
 

Tony C

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Other than being effective as a front man for Lebron/Klutch to do what they want, Rob Pelinka has shown to be incredibly out of his league.

The Lakers scouting infrastructure pre-dates him and has been very good for a while---Kuzma, Reaves, etc.

Pelinka has made numerous cap errors, overpaid for every asset he's acquired, and while Lebron's influence is a complicating variable has also shown absolutely zero ability to build a coherent roster. I get that Jeannie Buss randomly makes calls, and Lebron is the actual GM, but Pelinka should catch a lot more heat for the overall mess.
Can't stand Rob -- who sort of epitomizes a sleazy L.A. agent vibe -- and also agree that he's had some big flops, especially the dumb RW trade. The Lakers are more opaque than most front offices -- given the Buss influence, Rambis as well as his wife Linda Rambis being best buddies with the owner, and the Klutch/LeBron GM-ing factor -- but whoever was ultimately responsible for that deal was idiotic. Not matching Caruso's offer was almost as dumb. So don't read this as a defense, but I guess I'm not seeing the "overall mess" and other posts along the same lines. With Pelinka as GM (or head of operations or whatever his title is), they have won a championship and last year went to the Conference finals. Whatever the ins-and-outs of the deals, I think pretty much any front office would take that as better than a "mess" etc.

Of course, whoever is responsible in the FO for their successes, is responsible in the same way that Ann Richards/HIghtower described Bush ("born on third base and thinks he hit a triple". Pelinka inherited LeBron and LeBron brought in AD, which is pretty much the basketball equivalent of being born on 3rd base. Pelinka et al has just needed to hope for AD/LBJ health and on top of that hit a few singles on the supporting cast to get the team home. Definitely have done a hit-and-miss job on that. Still, can't be described as a failure.
 

the moops

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As long as we're giving Doc credit for Maxey (who took his biggest leap this year after Doc left, and after Doc inexplicably brought him off the bench for 20 games last year), then Joe gets some credit for Tatum, who is still the youngest member of the Celtics 9 man rotation.
I don't really want to give anyone credit, I was just kinda pointing out that Joe hasn't really played or developed any young guys
 

Euclis20

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I don't really want to give anyone credit, I was just kinda pointing out that Joe hasn't really played or developed any young guys
True, but a year and a half of leading a title or bust team with exactly 1 first round pick drafted in the last 4 years makes it sort of impossible, no? As you note he has given Hauser minutes, and that sole 1st round pick (Pritchard) is also a solid part of the rotation. I don't think Grant was handled all that well by the end, but we're talking about a 24 year old, 22nd overall pick from 2019 with a relatively low ceiling.

Pointing out that he hasn't played or developed any young guys is like pointing out that he hasn't brought a lottery team to contention - his grade in this regard isn't an 'F,' it's N/A.
 

lars10

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True, but a year and a half of leading a title or bust team with exactly 1 first round pick drafted in the last 4 years makes it sort of impossible, no? As you note he has given Hauser minutes, and that sole 1st round pick (Pritchard) is also a solid part of the rotation. I don't think Grant was handled all that well by the end, but we're talking about a 24 year old, 22nd overall pick from 2019 with a relatively low ceiling.

Pointing out that he hasn't played or developed any young guys is like pointing out that he hasn't brought a lottery team to contention - his grade in this regard isn't an 'F,' it's N/A.
And is it true?

He's played Hauser, Pritchard, and Kornet for 21.5 in 54, 20.7 in 55 and 14.9 MPG in 39... Queta is playing 12.3 mpg in 23 , Brissett 11.1 in 36, Svi 7.9 in 23 games.. Banton 7.1 in 24 games, Lamar Stevens 6.4 in 19... I know that's a lot of garbage time minutes, but basically the entire roster has gotten minutes..and 7-9 is getting significant minutes. Everyone other than Kornet on that list is 26 or younger. Not sure what else he could do to develop the young guys at the moment given how good 1-6 are.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Can't stand Rob -- who sort of epitomizes a sleazy L.A. agent vibe -- and also agree that he's had some big flops, especially the dumb RW trade. The Lakers are more opaque than most front offices -- given the Buss influence, Rambis as well as his wife Linda Rambis being best buddies with the owner, and the Klutch/LeBron GM-ing factor -- but whoever was ultimately responsible for that deal was idiotic. Not matching Caruso's offer was almost as dumb. So don't read this as a defense, but I guess I'm not seeing the "overall mess" and other posts along the same lines. With Pelinka as GM (or head of operations or whatever his title is), they have won a championship and last year went to the Conference finals. Whatever the ins-and-outs of the deals, I think pretty much any front office would take that as better than a "mess" etc.

Of course, whoever is responsible in the FO for their successes, is responsible in the same way that Ann Richards/HIghtower described Bush ("born on third base and thinks he hit a triple". Pelinka inherited LeBron and LeBron brought in AD, which is pretty much the basketball equivalent of being born on 3rd base. Pelinka et al has just needed to hope for AD/LBJ health and on top of that hit a few singles on the supporting cast to get the team home. Definitely have done a hit-and-miss job on that. Still, can't be described as a failure.
I hear that. To me, when Lebron is running things (which he has been) and picks to go there, Pelinka’s job is to get the details right around LBJ and AD. And he’s been bad at that all along—massive overpay for AD, and screwed up the cap piece of it to boot. Those details are always missing with the Lakers, and part of why they haven’t had a coherent roster is they have fewer tools…picks, cap room, salary slots—than they should. Consider how many moves Warriors have made with no cap room compared to Lakers!

the bubble championship counts. And, the critique of the roster all along was not deep enough/can’t sustain without LBJ and AD healthy. The only time they got that was the unprecedented three month midseason break. That doesn’t matter to some and to me, it does reduce my confidence that it would have worked in a normal season…as do the other seasons.

they could rally and prove me wrong this year, but they just had serious trade exploration of Lebron, are in ninth place, and since the bubble they lost in first round; missed playoffs; and won 43 games last year. You have AD and LBJ and in 3.5 seasons you’re precisely 4 games over .500 in total with two playoff series wins (neither of which likely would have happened if Morant was healthy in first round)

Pelinka tried to surround LBJ with “creators” and ballhandlers, costing assets and failed. He was very slow to get back to shooters and still hasn’t really made it work. There’s literally hundreds of NBA people who knew what Lebron has succeeded with and the Lakers found someone to make the calls who thought he knew better - he didn’t.

fully acknowledging it’s impossible to know who is deciding what there, letting Vogel go was bad and that came after several coaches looked at things and passed. And the RW trade.

to me, given he deserves zero credit for Lebron choosing LA and only a bit for AD (who forced his way there, and while he hugely overpaid Pelinka did get it done). What has occurred beyond those two is pretty rough isn’t it?
 

lovegtm

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Huh, looks like a lot of players start being better at basketball when they start playing alongside Tatum and Brown.

(I know the point of DPM is to make the best possible effort to separate a player's abilities from the impact of their teammates, but it's always seemed like a chicken and egg issue with metric design)
I'm not saying you're wrong (you're somewhat right imo), but I find it funny that whenever I point out Jaylen's really good non-Tatum net rating, some people respond with "well of course, he gets to play with DWhite and KP."

People are uncomfortable with the fact that the Celtics probably have 4 legitimate All-Stars, but their overall performance has been that of a 4 All-Star team.
 

benhogan

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As long as we're giving Doc credit for Maxey (who took his biggest leap this year after Doc left, and after Doc inexplicably brought him off the bench for 20 games last year), then Joe gets some credit for Tatum, who is still the youngest member of the Celtics 9 man rotation.
How about Derrick White's metamorphosis over the last two seasons?

I think Joe has the same impact on White's career as Doc has had on Maxey.... which isn't very much
 

chilidawg

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True, but a year and a half of leading a title or bust team with exactly 1 first round pick drafted in the last 4 years makes it sort of impossible, no? As you note he has given Hauser minutes, and that sole 1st round pick (Pritchard) is also a solid part of the rotation. I don't think Grant was handled all that well by the end, but we're talking about a 24 year old, 22nd overall pick from 2019 with a relatively low ceiling.

Pointing out that he hasn't played or developed any young guys is like pointing out that he hasn't brought a lottery team to contention - his grade in this regard isn't an 'F,' it's N/A.
I think Joe got more out of Grant than Dallas did, but maybe less than Ime did.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Re: JMazz versus Doc, I have no idea who is a better coach but one thing I know: at least JMazz plays and tries to develop young players.
Does he though? I don’t see any bias whatsoever in him playing a younger player for the purpose of developing him. Any young player he plays had previously earned that time from shorter spot minutes.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Does he though? I don’t see any bias whatsoever in him playing a younger player for the purpose of developing him. Any young player he plays had previously earned that time from shorter spot minutes.
That's Doc's reputation since he went to LAC and people in PHI think that while he played Maxey, Doc didn't give him the responsibility to break -out like he did this year. And he's decided to sit Jackson and Beauchamp even as he tries to improve MIL's defense. Maybe the reputation is unfair but I'm not going to take a deep dive into it.

JMazz has always been in Hauser's corner and while he's in a completely different situation given the talent he has this year, I think he's good about getting minutes to his bench. Like what he's done with Brissett, although he's not a rookie.

Anyways, bottom line is that I'm glad JMazz is here and Doc is elsewhere.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's Doc's reputation since he went to LAC and people in PHI think that while he played Maxey, Doc didn't give him the responsibility to break -out like he did this year. And he's decided to sit Jackson and Beauchamp even as he tries to improve MIL's defense. Maybe the reputation is unfair but I'm not going to take a deep dive into it.

JMazz has always been in Hauser's corner and while he's in a completely different situation given the talent he has this year, I think he's good about getting minutes to his bench. Like what he's done with Brissett, although he's not a rookie.

Anyways, bottom line is that I'm glad JMazz is here and Doc is elsewhere.
Doc is swayed by vets for sure and he’s lost his fastball regarding game strategy and attack plans imo.. I was referring to Mazz since he’s only had vets and younger players competing for minites against younger players. Hauser earned his minutes last year but probably would still have gotten some since we really had little wing deep depth last year. I’ve been fully in Mazz’s corner and unlike 98% of Celtics fans felt he overachieved in his role based on what expectations should have been under those crazy circumstances.
 

cheech13

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Do you have any stats or substantive info to show that Doc is currently better? Anything other than lol! amirite?!
It’s not an lol, just a bit premature imo to bury Doc in favor of Joe and I’m not even a huge Doc fan. Mazzulla really struggled in year one and lost to to an inferior team in the playoffs. Doc has had his struggles too but he’s been Coach of the Year, won a title, and generally been good everywhere. It’s certainly not “lol who hires Doc?”, which is an opinion that I see shared a lot here.
 

PedroKsBambino

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As is often the case, it's hard to know if Vaughn can coach or not. I will say the total zero the team showed up with right before all-star break did nothing to make me believe in him, but it's one game on a 'get away day'. His overall record is pretty meh, but the team has gone through such galactic chaos and transition - including being saddled with human distraction Ben Simmons--who knows?

Kenny Atkinson is probably a better coach and given the rebuild, may actually fit once again. No idea how they left things of course.
 

astrozombie

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IDK much about Vaughn but it seems unfortunate to pin everything wrong with the Nets on him. Maybe he is a legit bad coach, but there have just been so many weird things that happened in that organization and so much chaos that scapegoatting the coach seems brutal. He'll have to carry this on his resume forever, but hopefully he gets some peace the rest of this season.
 

Euclis20

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Wolves just signed Conley to a 2 year, 21 million dollar extension

That's a great deal for Minnesota
It really is. It's somewhat remarkable that we've still got 4 of the top 5 picks from the 2007 draft active (and playing real rotation minutes) in the league. The next oldest draft class that can say that is 2014, and that comes with an asterisk (Exum isn't playing right now, after being out of the league for the last two years).
 

the moops

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It really is. It's somewhat remarkable that we've still got 4 of the top 5 picks from the 2007 draft active (and playing real rotation minutes) in the league. The next oldest draft class that can say that is 2014, and that comes with an asterisk (Exum isn't playing right now, after being out of the league for the last two years).
Also crazy to look at the rest of that '07 draft and how many dudes have been out of the league for what seems like forever
 

HomeRunBaker

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Who was it that used to bitch about ‘Toine not posting up enough? Was it Bob Ryan? I can’t remember.
Antoine missed on majority of his dribble drives in that Heat Championship series but I’ll go to my grave believing that his ability to break down the defense creating rotation chaos allowing for put backs and open looks was critical to them winning the title that year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Good news, they're just promoting Kevin Ollie as interim for the balance of the year.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39558023/sources-nets-promote-kevin-ollie-interim-coach-replacing-jacque-vaughn
This is much more logical than asking the Celtics for permission when their season is in the tank anyway IF Cassell was their target. That doesn’t really happen in the NBA. This isn’t similar at all to last year when Stoudamire left for a collegiate job that needed to be accepted at the time and big pay raise.
 

Euclis20

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Not like it's a newsflash that current players make for terrible GMs, but I don't think Bam is even a top 5 center today. It's fine that he chose himself, and then he picked 3 of the top 20 players of all-time who are still playing at least at an all-star level, then there's Bam. Never even made an all-NBA team.

Maybe one day I'll feel bad for him not going to Miami, but not today.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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That's just straight-up bomb throwing! Pretty sure Dame and Bam have history from Team USA, etc., and Dame has really only been teammates with Giannis for a few months, but he has to know how that's going to be received. Just decline the opportunity to name a starting 5! Throw a little Doc-throwing-players-under-the-bus-after-losses and this Bucks team has full implosion possibilities. Maybe a mystery injury incoming from Dame?
 

Kliq

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You guys are really analyzing a NBA Central tweet? We need real games happening pronto.
 

InstaFace

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You guys are really analyzing a NBA Central tweet? We need real games happening pronto.
Fuck that, let's rewatch the high points from this season so far. Anyone want to do a live watchalong of the second Minnesota game? Kick it off like 9pm ET tomorrow or Weds, with whichever of you nutbars want to join over Zoom. I got the VOD all ready to go.