2023-2024 General NBA Season Thread

DeadlySplitter

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Ideally the Heat end up the 6th seed (or 2nd/3rd if they super surge) and that will have them avoid the C's again until the ECF.

Either way, can't be afraid of the Heat this year. Let them do whatever the fuck right now.
 

jmcc5400

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Ideally the Heat end up the 6th seed (or 2nd/3rd if they super surge) and that will have them avoid the C's again until the ECF.

Either way, can't be afraid of the Heat this year. Let them do whatever the fuck right now.
Not afraid, but I do loathe them and their self-congratulatory bullshit "culture."

Edit: It's worse, because Spiro Dedes won't let go of what a "shocking" upset this is by the noble, short-handed Heat. No mention of the second night of a back-to-back for the Kings.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Not afraid, but I do loathe them and their self-congratulatory bullshit "culture."

Edit: It's worse, because Spiro Dedes won't let go of what a "shocking" upset this is by the noble, short-handed Heat. No mention of the second night of a back-to-back for the Kings.
Spiro is kind of the worst for me.

Edit: also screw Heat and their trash ass culture.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Yikes, checking out last night's scores and you can probably guess how the Grizzlies did based on who their top performer was. What an injured team...

78700
 

Sam Ray Not

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Yikes, checking out last night's scores and you can probably guess how the Grizzlies did based on who their top performer was.What an injured team...

View attachment 78700
Maybe worth remembering that John Hollinger, the noted hoops genius who gave us PER, had the Grizz as the #1 seed going into the season.

Yes, he could not have predicted to the insane rash of injuries (to Adams and Clarke to begin with, then Ja post suspension, and now apparently Bane, Smart and anyone else who might slow down their tank). But he did know about the Ja suspension, and did presumably know about the existence of the Denver Nuggets, the obvious WC standard-bearer assuming his “prediction” actually meant something like “who would you actually bet on if your life depended on it” and not “which team are you a big fan of as their former VP” or “which pick would be fun and get you clicks.”

TLDR: the Grizzlies at #1 was the PER of predictions. (insert Nelson Munz “HAHA!” pic)
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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Maybe worth remembering that John Hollinger, the noted hoops genius who gave us PER, had the Grizz as the #1 seed going into the season.

Yes, he could not have predicted to the insane rash of injuries (to Adams and Clarke to begin with, then Ja post suspension, and now apparently Bane, Smart and anyone else who might slow down their tank). But he did know about the Ja suspension, and did presumably know about the existence of the Denver Nuggets, the obvious WC standard-bearer assuming his “prediction” actually meant something like “who would you actually bet on if your life depended on it” and not “which team are you a big fan of as their former VP” or “which pick would be fun and get you clicks.”

TLDR: the Grizzlies at #1 was the PER of predictions. (insert Nelson Munz “HAHA!” pic)
And as we all know, PER = Pretty Effing Ridiculous.
 

the moops

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I enjoy Nate Duncan and John Hollinger. Sure, he gets stuff wrong, we all do. He typically owns up to it. And while PER may be not the best all in one metric (perhaps one of the worst) it's still a fucking pretty damn big achievement that he created it and convinced the masses to use it
 

PedroKsBambino

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I like Hollinger more than some of you, but there is just no defending that pick, or his general homer-ness towards his former employer, the Grizzlies. He has a MAJOR blind spot there.

I guess he'd say something along lines of "well, they were 2nd seed last year, they added Smart, they have something to play for while Denver may coast...." It's just not realistic, imo, especially knowing Adams and Ja's situations (not sure if Adams was before or after the prediction, but questions were certainly there)
 

ManicCompression

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I guess he'd say something along lines of "well, they were 2nd seed last year, they added Smart, they have something to play for while Denver may coast...." It's just not realistic, imo, especially knowing Adams and Ja's situations (not sure if Adams was before or after the prediction, but questions were certainly there)
His argument from the Hollinger and Duncan pod was: this team takes the regular season seriously and their bench beats up on other benches, which is why they don't see much of a drop-off when Ja doesn't play in the regular season (playoffs very different). PER saw the West as very bunched up (which he was right about, though many saw that) and a deeper team like them could eke out a one seed if they played like last year (while teams like the Suns and Lakers would struggle due to lack of depth).

I don't get the sense that he has a ton of affinity for the organization that fired him, and if anything he might be overly generous to them to NOT seem biased toward them (because... they fired him).

RE: predictions, please show me the analyst who had the Timberwolves as the one seed and OKC as the two seed... dragging these guys for being wrong just seems kind of silly to me.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I don't get the sense that he has a ton of affinity for the organization that fired him, and if anything he might be overly generous to them to NOT seem biased toward them (because... they fired him).
Hollinger openly admits he feels an affinity towards the Grizz on the podcast. I don't blame him at all for it...he knows the people. Most reports were that he was demoted and then later left, rather than being fired - YMMV whether that's a distinction without a difference or not.
 

benhogan

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His argument from the Hollinger and Duncan pod was: this team takes the regular season seriously and their bench beats up on other benches, which is why they don't see much of a drop-off when Ja doesn't play in the regular season (playoffs very different). PER saw the West as very bunched up (which he was right about, though many saw that) and a deeper team like them could eke out a one seed if they played like last year (while teams like the Suns and Lakers would struggle due to lack of depth).

I don't get the sense that he has a ton of affinity for the organization that fired him, and if anything he might be overly generous to them to NOT seem biased toward them (because... they fired him).

RE: predictions, please show me the analyst who had the Timberwolves as the one seed and OKC as the two seed... dragging these guys for being wrong just seems kind of silly to me.
"short Memphis" after the Adams injury announcement was HRB's favorite forward bet (if my memory is correct)
 

HomeRunBaker

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"short Memphis" after the Adams injury announcement was HRB's favorite forward bet (if my memory is correct)
Under 45.5 Wins was my only preseason season long wager this year. I’m pretty sure there isn’t anyone in the world who had Adams rated as high as I did last season. He defined what an impact player looked like on both ends of the floor.
 

Auger34

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His argument from the Hollinger and Duncan pod was: this team takes the regular season seriously and their bench beats up on other benches, which is why they don't see much of a drop-off when Ja doesn't play in the regular season (playoffs very different). PER saw the West as very bunched up (which he was right about, though many saw that) and a deeper team like them could eke out a one seed if they played like last year (while teams like the Suns and Lakers would struggle due to lack of depth).

I don't get the sense that he has a ton of affinity for the organization that fired him, and if anything he might be overly generous to them to NOT seem biased toward them (because... they fired him).

RE: predictions, please show me the analyst who had the Timberwolves as the one seed and OKC as the two seed... dragging these guys for being wrong just seems kind of silly to me.
Both Hollinger and Pelton had the Wolves as a top 3 seed. I believe Pelton had them as the 2. For whatever reason, they were a very popular team in the models (and it has been proven correct thus far)
 

the moops

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Both Hollinger and Pelton had the Wolves as a top 3 seed. I believe Pelton had them as the 2. For whatever reason, they were a very popular team in the models (and it has been proven correct thus far)
If I remember correctly Pelton had Charlotte as going way over their 30 win total. It is hard to predict NBA over/unders
 

Auger34

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I enjoy Nate Duncan and John Hollinger. Sure, he gets stuff wrong, we all do. He typically owns up to it. And while PER may be not the best all in one metric (perhaps one of the worst) it's still a fucking pretty damn big achievement that he created it and convinced the masses to use it
I'll be honest, I don't find Hollinger that valuable. When The Athletic hired him, I was really excited because I thought he was going to incorporate the stuff that he learned or that he was exposed to while being a part of the Grizzlies FO. I listened to a few pods with him and read his columns....and basically nothing changed from his old stuff.

My biggest problem with him is that he comes off, to me, like he thinks he is much smarter and above your normal basketball analyst. Yet, when it comes down to it, his contributions are basically plugging numbers into his models and slavishly following whatever they say. I've always got the sense that he doesn't actually watch much basketball (which is crazy because I know he does but that's always the impression that I've got).

It's very impressive that he created PER and that he got hired by an NBA team...however, in sports media years, that was a long damn time ago. I think other people have passed him by, whether it be on a pure numbers basis (Cleaning the Glass, DARKO, etc) or by analysts who can effectively blend the scouting and numbers side together (Zach Lowe, JJ Redick, etc)
 

Auger34

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If I remember correctly Pelton had Charlotte as going way over their 30 win total. It is hard to predict NBA over/unders
Trust me, I am not saying Pelton is infallible and it's definitely very hard. Just pointing out that the T'Wolves were a favorite amongst the statistical models of Pelton and Hollinger
 

ManicCompression

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I'll be honest, I don't find Hollinger that valuable. When The Athletic hired him, I was really excited because I thought he was going to incorporate the stuff that he learned or that he was exposed to while being a part of the Grizzlies FO. I listened to a few pods with him and read his columns....and basically nothing changed from his old stuff.

My biggest problem with him is that he comes off, to me, like he thinks he is much smarter and above your normal basketball analyst. Yet, when it comes down to it, his contributions are basically plugging numbers into his models and slavishly following whatever they say. I've always got the sense that he doesn't actually watch much basketball (which is crazy because I know he does but that's always the impression that I've got).

It's very impressive that he created PER and that he got hired by an NBA team...however, in sports media years, that was a long damn time ago. I think other people have passed him by, whether it be on a pure numbers basis (Cleaning the Glass, DARKO, etc) or by analysts who can effectively blend the scouting and numbers side together (Zach Lowe, JJ Redick, etc)
interesting that you think Hollinger comes off as a know-it-all but Redick doesn’t. JJ strikes me as one of the biggest assholes in media. I mean, we’re coming off a week in which he called his own audience stupid. Not saying anything either way, just perspectives of the same thing can be so different person-to person-(which speaks to why it’s special to have mass appeal).

Hollinger is kind of fine to me. He’s better than a lot analysts and worse than others. I think the interesting thing about him is that he reveals NBA front offices aren’t really all that special and decision making can be much less “winning focused” than fans would think. He’s pretty honest about his experience in Memphis and that’s refreshing to me (in comparison to some of these other guys who don’t want to talk about how the sausage is made).
 

Auger34

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interesting that you think Hollinger comes off as a know-it-all but Redick doesn’t. JJ strikes me as one of the biggest assholes in media. I mean, we’re coming off a week in which he called his own audience stupid. Not saying anything either way, just perspectives of the same thing can be so different person-to person-(which speaks to why it’s special to have mass appeal).

Hollinger is kind of fine to me. He’s better than a lot analysts and worse than others. I think the interesting thing about him is that he reveals NBA front offices aren’t really all that special and decision making can be much less “winning focused” than fans would think. He’s pretty honest about his experience in Memphis and that’s refreshing to me (in comparison to some of these other guys who don’t want to talk about how the sausage is made).
That's a good point and could have been part of my initial reaction to him. I was hoping that he would reveal at least part of the "special sauce" or what teams looked at, etc. In the time that I listened to him, and I'll be honest it was only a couple of weeks when he first got hired, he didn't really bring up Memphis at all.
 

ManicCompression

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That's a good point and could have been part of my initial reaction to him. I was hoping that he would reveal at least part of the "special sauce" or what teams looked at, etc. In the time that I listened to him, and I'll be honest it was only a couple of weeks when he first got hired, he didn't really bring up Memphis at all.
I think the special sauce is that there is no special sauce and most orgs are beset by the same bureaucratic and administrative bullshit that you and I are in our jobs
 

ifmanis5

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Is the league too fun? Are corner 3's too easy? Joe Dumars to the rescue...
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39606079/from-embiid-70-luka-73-nba-offenses-become-too-good
Joe Dumars, the league's executive vice president and head of basketball operations who was a pillar of the defensively elite "Bad Boys" Detroit Pistons of the 1980s, told ESPN the league's competition committee has officially begun reviewing whether the game has tilted too far toward offense and whether changes need to be implemented to achieve better balance.

"It is a topic that we're monitoring," Dumars told ESPN earlier this month. "We're diving in right now to make sure that we're on the right side of this."
View: https://twitter.com/NBA_University/status/1762589692174680100
 

Sam Ray Not

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His argument from the Hollinger and Duncan pod was: this team takes the regular season seriously and their bench beats up on other benches, which is why they don't see much of a drop-off when Ja doesn't play in the regular season
Some other reasons for the lack of drop-off (at the team’s ‘21-22 peak) were Dillon Brooks, Tyus Jones, DeAnthony Melton, and Kyle Anderson, who were all gone when Hollinger made his prediction.

RE: predictions, please show me the analyst who had the Timberwolves as the one seed and OKC as the two seed... dragging these guys for being wrong just seems kind of silly to me.
I don’t think anyone’s asking him to have picked OKC or MIN at #1. All I’m personally asking is for him not to have picked Memphis minus a bunch of their peak core rotation guys, minus 25 games of Ja, and coming off a season when they were +0.4 per 100 possessions without Ja. Especially not over the defending champs with Jokic and all the core smack in their primes and everyone except Bruce Brown and Jeff Green returning.

Which is of course not the same as saying his prediction had zero chance of coming true. It was just (imo) very silly as a most likely scenario, which is what a #1 pick is supposed to be. Does anyone think he would actually have picked Memphis over Denver if his life depended on it?
 
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MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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I hate the idea of getting rid of the corner 3 and I am baffled by the idea, in general, that the game has "tilted too much toward the offense" or whatever. They're just better players! The idea is that there are too many players good at shooting and we should make it, what, harder to shoot?
 

snowmanny

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The problem is that court is too small. Or the players are too big. Maybe the basket is too big.
 

Euclis20

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Hollinger picked Jimmy Butler for the all-star team, even though he missed 18 games in the first half and had put up relatively ordinary numbers for an underperforming Heat team that was sitting in 7th place. Why? Because he was still top 25 in PER. I'm sorry, this is not a serious analyst.
 

ManicCompression

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Some other reasons for the lack of drop-off (at the team’s ‘21-22 peak) were Dillon Brooks, Tyus Jones, DeAnthony Melton, and Kyle Anderson, who were all gone when Hollinger made his prediction.



I don’t think anyone’s asking him to have picked OKC or MIN at #1. All I’m personally asking is for him not to have picked Memphis minus a bunch of their peak core rotation guys, minus 25 games of Ja, and coming off a season when they were +0.4 per 100 possessions without Ja. Especially not over the defending champs with Jokic and all the core smack in their primes and everyone except Bruce Brown and Jeff Green returning.

Which is of course not the same as saying his prediction had zero chance of coming true. It was just (imo) very silly as a most likely scenario, which is what a #1 pick is supposed to be. Does anyone think he would actually have picked Memphis over Denver if his life depended on it?
They were the 2 seed last year without Melton or Anderson, and they added Smart (who, though he has quite a few faults, has been better than Brooks and Jones in his career). Considering Memphis' track record of developing their own talent, it's reasonable to think that Smart in for Jones, plus improvement from Roddy/Williams/Aldama to make up for the loss of Brooks would keep them winning at close to last year's pace.

I'm not saying it's the greatest pick of all time, but he wasn't arguing they were going to run away with the West. You could've basically picked 8 teams out of a hat prior to the season and make a reasonable argument for any one of them to have the best record in the regular season. It looks really silly now that Bane has missed a bunch of games and Ja missed a lot more than just the 25, but if he said they were going to finish fifth in the west, five games behind the conference leader, would that be understandable? And is it so far off of the original prediction? 1-8 in the West is separated by 7 games... that's less than the lead the Celtics have over the second place Cavs.

RE: Denver over Memphis... probably no, but why are we taking pre-season predictions that seriously? Denver lost depth, had a long playoff run, and would probably sleepwalk through the regular season like a lot of experienced champions do.

IDK, does he get credit for picking the Wolves to have a high seed? All analysts are throwing darts - they have a lot of predictions that look dumb and some that look smart. I guess I don't understand taking so much glee in him being wrong here, but maybe I'm missing some reason why Warriors or Celtics fans should have personal animosity toward Hollinger.
 

the moops

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Hollinger picked Jimmy Butler for the all-star team, even though he missed 18 games in the first half and had put up relatively ordinary numbers for an underperforming Heat team that was sitting in 7th place. Why? Because he was still top 25 in PER. I'm sorry, this is not a serious analyst.
Meh. Jimmy Butler was probably as deserving as Jaylen and Scottie Barnes. FYI Jimmy Butler is currently 26th in EPM
 

Euclis20

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Meh. Jimmy Butler was probably as deserving as Jaylen and Scottie Barnes. FYI Jimmy Butler is currently 26th in EPM
If Butler had played 50/55 games (like Jaylen), I'd be fine with the selection. When you don't take the regular season seriously (like Jimmy has openly talked about) and it shows in how often you play and how well your team is doing, you don't deserve regular season honors.

And Barnes has played in all 58 games while having a really nice bounceback year. Maybe he didn't deserve the honor over some (KP), but missing 1/3 of your games while your team is underachieving isn't deserving of anything. The best ability is availability.
 

The Raccoon

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In other news: The Pistons are not the single worst team in the league anymore after winning @Chicago.
They're now tied with the Wizzards, who are on an impressive 12 game losing streak.
Jordan Poole with 12 points on 17 shots off the bench tonight (2-8 from 3, 5A/6TO) against GSW continues doing his best to overtake Bradley Beal in the "worst contract" race.
 

Euclis20

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I’d say Draymond’s return had more of an impact.
19-14 with Draymond. I don't know if they can get on enough of a roll to get out of the play in (3.5 games behind Phoenix in 6th), but they've got a real shot at getting out of 9/10, which is huge. They need Curry to stay healthy.

Miami jumped ahead of Philly for the 6 seed. For the first time in as long as I can remember, I'm rooting for them - I don't want the headache of seeing them in round 1, which means I'd prefer them not to land in the play in.
 

HomeRunBaker

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19-14 with Draymond. I don't know if they can get on enough of a roll to get out of the play in (3.5 games behind Phoenix in 6th), but they've got a real shot at getting out of 9/10, which is huge. They need Curry to stay healthy.

Miami jumped ahead of Philly for the 6 seed. For the first time in as long as I can remember, I'm rooting for them - I don't want the headache of seeing them in round 1, which means I'd prefer them not to land in the play in.
Since Draymond returned, one game prior to the coaches death, I’m pretty sure the Warriors have the leagues best Net Rating or at worst right at the top. A bunch of 1-2 possession losses skew their W/L record.
 

bigq

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It's an odd coincidence that in less than four minutes of game time Strus hit as many threes as the Celtics did in 48 minutes last night.
 

tims4wins

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snowmanny

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https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022300828

The L2M report on the Pistons-Knicks game confirms the missed call that led to the Monty Williams outburst. But these reports always have a way of making it all look even. Detroit should have been called for a defensive three-second violation and been given a technical right before the controversial no-call!!!! No bias!!!!

Maybe I am forgetful but the number of times that I recall a defensive three-second tech being called in the last minute of a one-point game is never. Anyone remember ever seeing that?
 

PedroKsBambino

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https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022300828

The L2M report on the Pistons-Knicks game confirms the missed call that led to the Monty Williams outburst. But these reports always have a way of making it all look even. Detroit should have been called for a defensive three-second violation and been given a technical right before the controversial no-call!!!! No bias!!!!

Maybe I am forgetful but the number of times that I recall a defensive three-second tech being called in the last minute of a one-point game is never. Anyone remember ever seeing that?
I do not recall one ever, mysef. Check the Tim Donaghy game logs?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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When you're a First Team All-NBA player either your +/- (2.2) or your On-Off (1.6) has to be exceptional.
Neither has been for Luka. It's screaming something is wrong with either his defense or an inability to make teammates better.
When I was looking at the CLE-DAL game, out of curiosity I looked back at the 3Ps that Strus and Mitchell made down the stretch. It was amazing to me how little Luka actually, you know, moves on defense. Then I thought - they must track these things, right?

According to NBA.com, Luka is 1.08 miles on defense per game and his average speed is 3.22. The 3.22 is the lowest in the NBA other than 9 guys, none of whom has played more than 3 games this season.

The starter who moves almost as slowly is LBJ - 1.04 miles defensively per game at an average speed of 3.32. The next two are Chris Paul (0.81 miles defensively; average speed = 3.35) and Embiid (distance: 1.02; average speed: 3.35). And after that is Jayson Tatum (distance = 1.09; average speed = 3.37).

On the other end of the spectrum, the player who moves the fastest (more than 17 games) is Josh Green, whose average speed = 4.53 and travels 1.12 miles defensively per game).Tourmani Camera has an average speed of 4.50 (distance = 0.95).

BOS's fastest defender is Brisset at 4.24 (although he only total .39 miles per game on average due to limited minutes).
 

The Raccoon

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Miami jumped ahead of Philly for the 6 seed. For the first time in as long as I can remember, I'm rooting for them - I don't want the headache of seeing them in round 1, which means I'd prefer them not to land in the play in.
It feels impossible to judge the Heat and what they can/will be able to do in the Playoffs because they don't seem to care much about the regular season and had quite some injuries on top.

On the Lowe Post podcast they pointed out that Bam and Butler have played together in only half of the games this season so far. That's their two most important players and the only fixed members of a potential starting five.
Assuming full health, who else starts for the Heat in Game 1 of the Playoffs?
Jaquez - usually of the bench, only 17 starts so far
Rozier - barely played fo the Heat yet
Herro - in the past he was best if the bench, also often injured
Robinson? Jovic? Martin? Highsmiths? Richardson?? Love???

I just hope they get into the 2-3-6-7 side of the brackets and someone else kills off their "culture". It's not fear I feel, it's disgust - and I want the Celtics as far away from them as possible.