2023-24 Celtics

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,086
What was the deal at the end there? Did Joe think that the starters had dicked around for a couple minutes, and that the bench guys would be more motivated to seal the +23 margin?
Looked to me that the starters were either gassed or unfocused. Right before he took the starters out, here were their offensive possessions:
  • JB missed layup, got OReb, missed second layup
  • JB TO
  • JT missed 3P shot (after, IIRC, a pretty stagnant offensive set) + OReb + JB FTs
  • PP missed 3P.
Plus (again IIRC), they weren't really getting back on defense.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,627
Looked to me that the starters were either gassed or unfocused. Right before he took the starters out, here were their offensive possessions:
  • JB missed layup, got OReb, missed second layup
  • JB TO
  • JT missed 3P shot (after, IIRC, a pretty stagnant offensive set) + OReb + JB FTs
  • PP missed 3P.
Plus (again IIRC), they weren't really getting back on defense.
Yeah, agree. They were allowing tons of easy layups and lapses on the defensive end. I think Joe really did just decide that the $500K Crew would close it out better.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,865
Saint Paul, MN
As a fan, I was still confused, though, as it wasn't clear to me if point differential was keeping the Celtics in the tournament or if it was just for seeding.
This was explained a bunch of times in here and on every sports site out there. Any fan that didn't know the ramifications of last nights games was no fault but their own.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,590
Santa Monica

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,188
Highlights
-Luke Kornet leads the NBA in FG% from less than 5 feet with 20 or more attempts.
-Brown improved passing
-Joe Mazzulla's record through 100 games as Boston's head coach: 71-29. He currently has the highest winning percentage (.710) of any coach in NBA history.

https://www.celticsblog.com/2023/12/1/23968217/three-leaf-clover-joe-mazzulla-credit-luke-kornet-finisher-jaylen-brown-passer-boston-celtics
Jaylen's turnover numbers are dropping dramatically too. He's now at 2.4 per game, and his TOV% is at 10.7, which is lower than anyone in the top 6 (Horford included) besides KP.

When you filter out offensive fouls, Jaylen's turnover rate is now at 1.88 per game. I keep talking about offensive fouls in this context, because this number has to start regressing to the mean at some point. Tatum/KP/Brown have all been called for 9 offensive fouls this season. In most cases, the extremely subjective and sometimes make-up-cally "moving screen" fouls that come randomly. That would put each of them on pace for about 40 offensives. Tatum has never had a season above 33. Brown's 2 highest were 21 and 27 in a season.

The C's as a team have 43 offensive fouls in 18 games this year. 2.3888 per game. Last season, they had 149 offensive fouls in 82 games, or 1.817 per game.

If you filtered out offensive fouls from Jaylen last season, his TOV would have been 2.54 per game, as opposed to 1.88 this season so far.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not seeing this massive increase in hard screens, or out of control drives to the hoop from the Jays this season, which is why I'm waiting for these numbers to adjust for both of them.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,411
Imaginationland
Adrian Griffin walked into an arguably better situation. Let's see how he does.
"Better" is definitely subjective. From a pure title chance standpoint sure, Griffin's situation is better than Kerr's was (The Warriors were +2800 to win the title his first year, Bucks are +600 this year), but the flip side of that is that it might be easier for rookie coaches who join competitive teams that aren't quite title favorites. Griffin will get a good chunk of the blame if the Bucks flame out in the playoffs (again!), but he's not getting any credit if they win (compared with Kerr back in 2015). There's something to be said for being allowed to make mistakes without everyone thinking you're killing a team's title chances.
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
20,978
I maintain that the Tatum ejection (and some of the others this year, like Giannis) are absolutely inexcusable. You have guys like Draymond running around on a nightly basis with one standard, while the rest of the league has to play by different rules. It's stupid.
 

Justthetippett

New Member
Aug 9, 2015
2,577
I maintain that the Tatum ejection (and some of the others this year, like Giannis) are absolutely inexcusable. You have guys like Draymond running around on a nightly basis with one standard, while the rest of the league has to play by different rules. It's stupid.
Looked like a younger ref made those calls? Probably needs some more experience to realize people don't come to the arena to see him make calls. Tatum also needs to cut it out and play.
 

chilidawg

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 22, 2015
6,169
Cultural hub of the universe
Looked like a younger ref made those calls? Probably needs some more experience to realize people don't come to the arena to see him make calls. Tatum also needs to cut it out and play.
That was such an egregious foul from Tatum, it's rare you get both the nut shot and the elbow to the chin in the same foul. It's so hard to tell if he deserved the T or not, because we don't know what he said. But he'd had a tough game with the turnovers and was obviously frustrated. Got to get to the point where that stuff doesn't get into your head, which he's generally been better at this year.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,678
Looked like a younger ref made those calls? Probably needs some more experience to realize people don't come to the arena to see him make calls. Tatum also needs to cut it out and play.
Ransom has been a full-time NBA ref for quite some time, 6-7 years? It was weird bc it didn't appear that he was involved in the conversation.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,466
Pittsburgh, PA
I don't really know whether the first T was deserved or not (the call he was complaining about was a correct call, though), but the second one clearly was deserved. Even Scal was talking about "you can't step to a referee". Like two of the three refs made the you're-outta-here gesture at the same time, they both had enough right at the same moment - makes me think some magic words were said.

I have no problem with the ejection. Spare me the "in a league where Draymond walks around a free man", not many people here loathe Draymond more than I do. Tatum's conduct deserved a T. And it turned out he'd already had one. Next time Draymond won't retreat to his bench when ordered to by two referees, I hope he gets T'd up too.

Tatum needs to gripe less. Take some lessons from Lebron or something.
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
20,978
I don't really know whether the first T was deserved or not (the call he was complaining about was a correct call, though), but the second one clearly was deserved. Even Scal was talking about "you can't step to a referee". Like two of the three refs made the you're-outta-here gesture at the same time, they both had enough right at the same moment - makes me think some magic words were said.

I have no problem with the ejection. Spare me the "in a league where Draymond walks around a free man", not many people here loathe Draymond more than I do. Tatum's conduct deserved a T. And it turned out he'd already had one. Next time Draymond won't retreat to his bench when ordered to by two referees, I hope he gets T'd up too.

Tatum needs to gripe less. Take some lessons from Lebron or something.
Isn't LeBron the guy who lost his damn mind in a Broadway caliber performance without any penalty when a call didn't go his way against the Celtics last year?
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,466
Pittsburgh, PA
Isn't LeBron the guy who lost his damn mind without any penalty when a call didn't go his way against the Celtics last year?
Yes, clearly he knows a thing or two about how not to cross the line.

(I also suspect the refs knew they'd blown the call there, but couldn't lose face to reverse themselves on a game-deciding call as a result of whining)
 

JCizzle

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 11, 2006
20,978
Yes, clearly he knows a thing or two about how not to cross the line.

(I also suspect the refs knew they'd blown the call there, but couldn't lose face to reverse themselves on a game-deciding call as a result of whining)
I mean, that was basically the definition of crossing the line. My point is that the standard should basically be the standard, which it's clearly not in my opinion.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,678
Isn't LeBron the guy who lost his damn mind in a Broadway caliber performance without any penalty when a call didn't go his way against the Celtics last year?
He should have lost it twice on that blunder by the officials.
 

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
12,069
Yes, clearly he knows a thing or two about how not to cross the line.

(I also suspect the refs knew they'd blown the call there, but couldn't lose face to reverse themselves on a game-deciding call as a result of whining)
Right.. the reason is because it’s a completely different line. Tatum raises his arms and looks disgusted and it’s a T.. LeBron used to do that kind of ‘histrionics’ after every foul call against him or that he didn’t get.

Edit; you could find a ton of videos like this:
View: https://youtu.be/nLsUFOlsRlU?si=74k53jZNBkXTV9Fr
 
Last edited:

lars10

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
12,069

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,627
Regardless, the ejection was probably good for them. Tatum was pretty bad, scoring efficiently but turning it over lazily over and over.

Brown was awful for awhile too, but Tatum's ejection seemed to focus him and the team on making the right play more consistently.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,181
Mazzulla with the money quote:

“Games like that, everyone has the expectation of the game is supposed to go a certain way. That’s not how the NBA works.”
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,627
Mazzulla with the money quote:

“Games like that, everyone has the expectation of the game is supposed to go a certain way. That’s not how the NBA works.”
I'll preface this by saying it's on the players, and not Mazzulla, but...

The game didn't "go a certain way" because of randomness. It happened because the Celtics couldn't be fucked to play defense, and allowed endless dribble penetration with lazy help.

People have talked here a lot about intensity in IST games. If you want to see what intensity DOESN'T look like, go watch this 1st quarter and then compare it to the Chicago game. Night and day wrt effort and attention to detail.

It's regular season, it was a letdown without Embiid, it happens to everyone, but this was 100% an effort problem.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,181
I'll preface this by saying it's on the players, and not Mazzulla, but...

The game didn't "go a certain way" because of randomness. It happened because the Celtics couldn't be fucked to play defense, and allowed endless dribble penetration with lazy help.

People have talked here a lot about intensity in IST games. If you want to see what intensity DOESN'T look like, go watch this 1st quarter and then compare it to the Chicago game. Night and day wrt effort and attention to detail.

It's regular season, it was a letdown without Embiid, it happens to everyone, but this was 100% an effort problem.
No doubt, but I think Joe's point is that this happens regularly in the NBA, for the reasons you cited. The Bulls, in their first game since losing by 200 points to Boston, beat the Bucks despite playing without DeRozan and LaVine on Thursday night. I'm sure the Bucks, once they saw the injury report, figured all they had to do was show up.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,678
It's regular season, it was a letdown without Embiid, it happens to everyone, but this was 100% an effort problem.
I think our focus would have been fine without Embiid but when it was Embiid AND Maxey that was the lightning rod to the exhale resulting in losing your edge. Clippers did same against Denver without Jokic and Gordon on top of Murray, Bulls and Bucks....etc etc. This has been a staple of regular season NBA for many years.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,747
I'll preface this by saying it's on the players, and not Mazzulla, but...

The game didn't "go a certain way" because of randomness.

.
I think thats exactly what he's saying. Youre reading too much into his use of the passive voice.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,335
That was such an egregious foul from Tatum, it's rare you get both the nut shot and the elbow to the chin in the same foul. It's so hard to tell if he deserved the T or not, because we don't know what he said. But he'd had a tough game with the turnovers and was obviously frustrated. Got to get to the point where that stuff doesn't get into your head, which he's generally been better at this year.
Was it really? I thought it looked inadvertent to me.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,972
Melrose, MA
Steve Kerr is the only coach to walk into a better situation in recent memory
How about Luke Walton, who went 39-4 filling in for an injured Kerr during the Warriors 73 win season?
Kerr walked into a situation with the cores best years ahead of them. Griffin entered one with the best years behind them. He's destined to be the scapegoat here imo.
I think the signs of that are already showing. Griffin tried to put in a new defensive system and had to scrap it after the first few weeks. During the Celtics game, Giannis showed him up.
I maintain that the Tatum ejection (and some of the others this year, like Giannis) are absolutely inexcusable. You have guys like Draymond running around on a nightly basis with one standard, while the rest of the league has to play by different rules. It's stupid.
It was inexcusable on both sides, though. Tatum saw that these refs called a bunch of weak technicals, including on him. It's on him to recognize that and adjust.
Regardless, the ejection was probably good for them. Tatum was pretty bad, scoring efficiently but turning it over lazily over and over.

Brown was awful for awhile too, but Tatum's ejection seemed to focus him and the team on making the right play more consistently.
I agree. Tatum played the first 3 quarters while apparently suffering from a craniorectal inversion, but his ejection seemed to focus the team.
I'll preface this by saying it's on the players, and not Mazzulla, but...

The game didn't "go a certain way" because of randomness. It happened because the Celtics couldn't be fucked to play defense, and allowed endless dribble penetration with lazy help.
Absolutely. The guys who played well in this game were Horford (shouldn't the other players feel a little shame when they are lazily going through the motions while the 37-year old guy is busting his ass at both ends?), White (did Mazzulla lose track of White in this game? Somehow he played the fewest minutes of any starter but Tatum while leading the team in +/- in every quarter except the 4th), and Pritchard in the 4th (led the team with 10 points and +12).

Off the bench, Hauser was good except that he kept turning the ball over in transition opportunities.

Pritchard was not good in quarters 1 to 3 but he was fired up and great in the 4th.

The trick-or-treat nature of Neemias Queta was on full display. In 10 minutes, he had 5 points and 5 rebounds... and 2 turnovers. Rebounded a Celtic missed free throw, was fouled, and hit the shots. Scored and got fouled when the Celtics drove and dished to him. But also plenty of awkwardness from him. Set a pick for White but the defense defended White's drive well and he passed it back to Queta (who had done a sort of short roll), who took a dribble and then coughed it up - that was one of his turnovers. I want to see how much of his struggles are due to adjustment to the level of play in the NBA versus just a straight lack of talent.

Banton also showed a mix of good and bad. In 10 minutes, 4 points (2-4) and 5 rebounds, plus an assist and a block. Had a great drive, hang in the air, get fouled, and hit the shot, but then missed the FT. Attempted one three which missed badly. But he was an active presence and made some plays.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,755
that pool report is sort of interesting—the only way to defend the ejection is a “magic words” explanation and they didn’t make it. Pretty indefensible ejection otherwise.

what I think was going on was Tatum was yapping more than he has most of this year and crew was tired of it. Which I get, and he shouldn’t do that. But based on how nba calls techs on stars that one is indefensible unless they left something out of explanation….as others noted players want a consistent standard and that one failed it.

my guess is crew said “stop” he didn’t and they made the power-play ejection. That’s the definition of bad choice by Tatum (why push it with one T already) and also crappy officiating—they can just walk away.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,678
How about Luke Walton, who went 39-4 filling in for an injured Kerr during the Warriors 73 win season?

I think the signs of that are already showing. Griffin tried to put in a new defensive system and had to scrap it after the first few weeks. During the Celtics game, Giannis showed him up.

It was inexcusable on both sides, though. Tatum saw that these refs called a bunch of weak technicals, including on him. It's on him to recognize that and adjust.

I agree. Tatum played the first 3 quarters while apparently suffering from a craniorectal inversion, but his ejection seemed to focus the team.

Absolutely. The guys who played well in this game were Horford (shouldn't the other players feel a little shame when they are lazily going through the motions while the 37-year old guy is busting his ass at both ends?), White (did Mazzulla lose track of White in this game? Somehow he played the fewest minutes of any starter but Tatum while leading the team in +/- in every quarter except the 4th), and Pritchard in the 4th (led the team with 10 points and +12).

Off the bench, Hauser was good except that he kept turning the ball over in transition opportunities.

Pritchard was not good in quarters 1 to 3 but he was fired up and great in the 4th.

The trick-or-treat nature of Neemias Queta was on full display. In 10 minutes, he had 5 points and 5 rebounds... and 2 turnovers. Rebounded a Celtic missed free throw, was fouled, and hit the shots. Scored and got fouled when the Celtics drove and dished to him. But also plenty of awkwardness from him. Set a pick for White but the defense defended White's drive well and he passed it back to Queta (who had done a sort of short roll), who took a dribble and then coughed it up - that was one of his turnovers. I want to see how much of his struggles are due to adjustment to the level of play in the NBA versus just a straight lack of talent.

Banton also showed a mix of good and bad. In 10 minutes, 4 points (2-4) and 5 rebounds, plus an assist and a block. Had a great drive, hang in the air, get fouled, and hit the shot, but then missed the FT. Attempted one three which missed badly. But he was an active presence and made some plays.
Both of Queta's turnovers came off passes where he was filling a lane and a teammate put him in the position of having to catch and/or catch and dribble in motion. There may not be a worse player in the NBA to pass the ball to when moving. That's on the players failure to recognize his skillset and Horford immediately recognized his error in putting Queta in that position.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,972
Melrose, MA
Both of Queta's turnovers came off passes where he was filling a lane and a teammate put him in the position of having to catch and/or catch and dribble in motion. There may not be a worse player in the NBA to pass the ball to when moving. That's on the players failure to recognize his skillset and Horford immediately recognized his error in putting Queta in that position.
I remember the Horford play now - that was an uncharacteristic mistake by him.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,678
I remember the Horford play now - that was an uncharacteristic mistake by him.
Another example of a player being in a position that he's not accustomed to being in...as the middleman leading a 3-on-2 break. Unlike the pass to Queta however this occured organically. One could say that the Al-Queda fast break blew up in their faces.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,181
Another example of a player being in a position that he's not accustomed to being in...as the middleman leading a 3-on-2 break. Unlike the pass to Queta however this occured organically. One could say that the Al-Queda fast break blew up in their faces.
Horford immediately acknowledged that he'd made a mistake by passing to Queta in transition.