2023 Offseason MLB News/Rumors Thread

jon abbey

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That’s stupid money for Counsel. This isn’t Tito or Bochy we are taking about.
Counsell is a better manager IMO than Bochy, who was super lucky his team made the playoffs this year and has always been a mediocre at best regular season manager. Counsell's teams, on a shoestring budget, have made the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years and missed the other year by 1 game after trading Hader at the deadline.
 

canderson

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Counsell is a better manager IMO than Bochy, who was super lucky his team made the playoffs this year and has always been a mediocre at best regular season manager. Counsell's teams, on a shoestring budget, have made the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years and missed the other year by 1 game after trading Hader at the deadline.
Bochy strikes me like Tito - he manages the season as a slog and the playoffs entirely different ly - and it’s led to 3 titles for him.
 

jon abbey

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Bochy strikes me like Tito - he manages the season as a slog and the playoffs entirely different ly - and it’s led to 3 titles for him.
I don't think any of us have much of an idea what kind of impact specific managers actually have, but maybe he should manage a little differently in the regular season then, as only 4 of his 13 SF teams made the postseason.
 

StuckOnYouk

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Unless you have a massive payroll I don’t thinking winning four titles is a mistake. Even with a massive payroll four is difficult.

Whatever Bochy is doing I wouldn’t have him change a thing.
 

nattysez

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I am puzzled by the Vogt hiring. I find it very hard to believe there isn't a more qualified candidate.

This is the second time the Cubs have jumped at the chance to bring in a manager they'd appreciated from afar despite having a decent manager already -- Joe Maddon's hiring was kind of similar to Counsell's.

Bochy's rings speak for themselves, but it's hard to find a pitching staff that got ground down more completely in the modern era than the 2010s Giants staff. Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum were below-average pitchers after age 27 and MadBum made it to age 29.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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I am puzzled by the Vogt hiring. I find it very hard to believe there isn't a more qualified candidate.
What makes one a more qualified candidate? They interviewed at least eight candidates and the only two who have managerial experience were Counsell – in which case I think they made the correct decision on not being worth a bidding war – and Andy Green, who was by far the least interesting option of the bunch.

It's pretty clear that prior managerial experience or years of coaching wasn't a priority for Cleveland and hasn't been for a lot of teams over the past decade. Cleveland already has a lot of experience in the dugout with Sandy Alomar (he's remaining on staff and has been the Guards manager for 50+ games in the past) and Carl Willis (expected to continue as pitching coach). Their top front office positions are filled by people who have been with the organization for a couple of decades or more. They want someone who they think can lead a clubhouse and utilize advanced metrics while communicating with the staff that's already in place and knows the organization inside and out. None of us have any insight into how the candidates they interviewed differentiated themselves from the rest, but Cleveland seemed to do their due diligence and their front office has never done anything to make me think they went with an inferior option for any reason.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Interesting article on Vogt. Certainly seems clear that teams are much more open to non-traditional paths to the managerial (and GM!) roles than they have ever been before; the idea that a guy would need to toil in the minors and get coaching experience seems to be a thing of the past. I think it’s largely like many other jobs; finding the right cultural fit and someone who can relate to players.

https://theathletic.com/5037347/2023/11/06/stephen-vogt-cleveland-guardians-manager/?source=user_shared_articleStephen Vogt’s path to Cleveland Guardians manager was a long time coming
 

nattysez

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Interesting article on Vogt. Certainly seems clear that teams are much more open to non-traditional paths to the managerial (and GM!) roles than they have ever been before; the idea that a guy would need to toil in the minors and get coaching experience seems to be a thing of the past. I think it’s largely like many other jobs; finding the right cultural fit and someone who can relate to players.

https://theathletic.com/5037347/2023/11/06/stephen-vogt-cleveland-guardians-manager/?source=user_shared_articleStephen Vogt’s path to Cleveland Guardians manager was a long time coming
Thanks very much for the article. I did not know about this, which makes Vogt's hiring much less bizarre:

He spent last season as Seattle’s bullpen and quality control coach. He did serve as a coaching apprentice in 2018, when a shoulder injury knocked him out for the season.
Even if this only constitutes a season of actual coaching, it's not nothing, which is what I thought he was coming into the job with.
 

RG33

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Ross is out and not moving up to the FO
I am really stuck on this:

“David’s legacy will be felt in Chicago for generations and his impact to our organization will stack up with legends that came before him.”

Like, good guy and all, but for a backup C on a chanpionship team and an under .500 manager in 4 seasons, this seems a bit much.

Maybe I am just bitter that Mirabelli’s number hasn’t been retired by the Sox yet . . .
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Ross played a role in modern day Cubs and Red Sox WS winners, which is something only he, Jon Lester, and John Lackey share, I think. But yeah, I don’t think he has any kind of legacy as a manager. Kind of an unceremonious way to dump him, but they did the same thing to Rich Renteria too when Maddon became available.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Apparently Counsell didn't tell the Brewers until a day after the deal was done (albeit a weekend).

This change didn’t happen because of some simmering tension between Ross and Hoyer. But as November neared and Counsell remained on the market, Hoyer’s interest was piqued. An opportunity to improve markedly in a significant area presented itself and Hoyer pounced. On Nov. 1, he reached out and Counsell came to the Chicagoland area to meet with Hoyer. The last thing Hoyer wanted was for any of this to go public, Counsell to end up elsewhere and for Ross to find out. That would create the type of friction between a manager and head of baseball operations that would likely be untenable.

To ensure that this stayed quiet, Hoyer was the only person to meet with Counsell, very few people in the front office were aware of the meeting, and Counsell never came to the Cubs offices adjacent to Wrigley Field. The two had very little interaction prior to that meeting on Nov. 1, but seemed to hit it off quickly and talked deep into the night.

In the coming days, Counsell would meet with the New York Mets and Cleveland Guardians while staying in contact with the Brewers. Late Saturday evening, Hoyer was optimistic that they were close on the financials and a deal would be made. By Sunday morning, the deal was done.
https://theathletic.com/5038015/2023/11/06/cubs-craig-counsell-david-ross-jed-hoyer/
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Kind of a shitty way to treat a “legend” but I guess that’s business. Maybe Ross can go to Milwaukee and take his coaching staff with him.

Brewers-Cubs games should be fun at least!
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Ross should be in demand, right? The Cubs struggled at the end but he seemed well liked. He just lost his seat to a more talented person - that's sports.
 

JimD

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I hear there may be an opening a year from now for a team he once played for.
He might be worth a gander - if nothing else, at least he got his teams to play hard after the trading deadline the past two seasons.
 

santadevil

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I missed this, but Nelson Cruz retired. Pretty impressive career!
Impressive indeed. I'm a bit torn on how to feel about Cruz
Cost his team a championship 2011, got suspended in 2013 for PED's and still got 10 more years in the game after that, many at a high level, which seems weird, since he had more productive seasons after his PED suspension. That always struck me as a guy who possibly got around the testing somehow

Seemed like an okay dude though
 

nattysez

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According to the ticker on MLB network, Ron Washington will be hired as the new manager of the L.A. Angels
Did the GMs all decide to drop acid before doing business this week? WTF is happening?

Ron Washington is 71 years old and last managed in 2014. There is zero chance there weren't better candidates.
 

InsideTheParker

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Did the GMs all decide to drop acid before doing business this week? WTF is happening?

Ron Washington is 71 years old and last managed in 2014. There is zero chance there weren't better candidates.
Dusty Baker just retired at age 74. He was perfectly acceptable the last 3 years, no? Bochy is 68. I do remember hearing the Braves' players raving about Washington's coaching. The Sox could have used him to teach base-running and defense this past season.
 

Max Power

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Washington is known as one of the best teachers of the game. If the Angels are cashing in their chips and going for a youth movement, he'd be a good guy to have in charge.
 

nattysez

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Washington is known as one of the best teachers of the game. If the Angels are cashing in their chips and going for a youth movement, he'd be a good guy to have in charge.
I must admit, my hatred of this move lessened a lot when it was announced as a two-year deal. That makes me think that (1) they are going to trade Trout and (2) they are going to spend the next two years trying to rebuild.

Dusty Baker just retired at age 74. He was perfectly acceptable the last 3 years, no? Bochy is 68.
This is like saying Pete Carroll is a good coach in his 70s, so maybe we should hire Rex Ryan as our coach - he's only 60! Ron Washington has not been a particularly good manager at any age.
 

E5 Yaz

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This is like saying Pete Carroll is a good coach in his 70s, so maybe we should hire Rex Ryan as our coach - he's only 60!
No, I think it's like saying that older candidates shouldn't be discriminated against