We were competing against other teams for his services. What’s difficult to understand?The biggest mistake in this whole mess was giving him guaranteed money. I never ever understood it from the moment the contract was signed.
We were competing against other teams for his services. What’s difficult to understand?The biggest mistake in this whole mess was giving him guaranteed money. I never ever understood it from the moment the contract was signed.
There are rules and a process for teams reclaiming cap space, though sometimes it takes years (Miguel still thinks the Patriots will get an additional cap credit for Aaron Hernandez at some point; obviously that situation is more complicated than most). The union has an interest in getting players actual money; if teams are taking cap charges without paying the players, that works against that interest.@DrewDawg
Well they could settle for Less money.
"Out Of Pocket" money could be less. NFLPA would be involved here as well I think. But Maybe if Brown says he doesnt care what they think as long as I get my money next Friday....(cause he has basically quit the NFL, so wtf does he care about the Union now).
But unless the NFL agrees/has precedent and rules that allow them to "return the cap money" then that is likely gone.
IOW Cap Money is just a number on a piece of Paper. Where as the actual settlement could be REAL money.
Once could be reduced (and Make Kraft happier), while the other might stick (and impact the cap spending ability of the Pats for the short term).
I'm saying I don't think he can.@DrewDawg
Agreed. It would seem to be a precedent
But AB MIGHT (not saying he will) be willing to be over and done with this. And if his case sucks....IAMNAL...but people settle for lots of reasons.
The simplest probable answer is that that's what it took to sign him. Teams gamble all the time. Sometimes it's on old players. Sometimes its on players coming back from injury. Sometimes it's on guys like Kirk Cousins. Sometimes it's on great players with potential batshittery.The biggest mistake in this whole mess was giving him guaranteed money. I never ever understood it from the moment the contract was signed.
Why not? I am not being obtuse. I am truly curious. (you may well be right)This isn't a court case where people can agree to meet in the middle.
right it was widely reported he almost went to Seattle, right? We probably won the bidding only narrowly, as much as he publicly expressed pride about the chance to play for our team.We were competing against other teams for his services. What’s difficult to understand?
Because professional sports isn't the same thing. I'm not sure what else to tell you. There's nothing to renegotiate--the Patriots and AB no longer have a contract. They can't negotiate away cap hits and there's no way folks will let Kraft change the amount paid to AB and another amount as the cap hit.Why not? I am not being obtuse. I am truly curious. (you may well be right)
If you and I have a contract we can renegotiate at any time.
Because unions don't want to create an precedent where guaranteed money can be taken away, even voluntarily. Obviously a different sport, but this was a major reason the ARod trade to Boston didn't happen. He agreed to reduce his salary but the union blocked it from happening.Why not? I am not being obtuse. I am truly curious. (you may well be right)
If you and I have a contract we can renegotiate at any time.
I agree that the NFLPA complicates matters. But IN THEORY if AB said Screw you guys....I am not participating in your efforts against the Pats....would the NFLPA be able to do much?
Why would AB do that you ask? Well again in theory if the pats said "look we have you by the balls. There is a non Zero chance (say 50-50) that with all the shit that has come out we can get out by not paying you a dime. Will you take 5 Million? Or do you want to chance it, pay lawyers 100s of K and maybe come out with zip.?"
I agree this is mostly theoretical because we have never had (that I can recall) a player be in this situation.
But in this case there’s an overarching CBA that governs the kinds of contracts players and teams can enter into, and it governs the salary cap implications of those contracts. Unless the CBA allows for indepenandly negotiated settlements that are applied to a team’s cap number, the team and the player can’t just hash it out on their own and then present it to the league to just accept it.If you and I have a contract we can renegotiate at any time.
Except that the Pats were not the only game in town.The biggest mistake in this whole mess was giving him guaranteed money. I never ever understood it from the moment the contract was signed.
I think the issue wouldn’t be a contract renegotiation. Rather, a settlement would be to drop the grievance in exchange for money. This would, of course, depend on how likely AB thought he was to win in front of an arbitrator. Also, it would leave the issue of what the Patriots are allowed to do unresolved, as it would never go to arbitration.Because professional sports isn't the same thing. I'm not sure what else to tell you. There's nothing to renegotiate--the Patriots and AB no longer have a contract. They can't negotiate away cap hits and there's no way folks will let Kraft change the amount paid to AB and another amount as the cap hit.
You're the one asking for something that we haven't seen before, I'd think it's incumbent on you to pull some rules and show us how it can happen. You keep asking us to prove why it can't.
I know Michael McCann, law professor and SI legal analyst, has talked about a settlement being a possibility.And several media types that are normally fairly reliable have mentioned the term "settlement", so it is possible there may be provisions in the CBA for settlement of grievances.
Sure it’s a possibility. There is no way the NFLPA can prevent AB from settling for an amount acceptable to him short of the maximum.I know Michael McCann, law professor and SI legal analyst, has talked about a settlement being a possibility.
The NFLPA wouldn't like it. And likely wouldn't like the Patriots doing it.Sure it’s a possibility. There is no way the NFLPA can prevent AB from settling for an amount acceptable to him short of the maximum.
I don't claim to have special knowledge of the NFL salary cap rules, but are we certain about the bolded? For older players in hockey, the cash paid out pursuant to a contract settlement does not necessarily equal the salary cap hit of that settlement. So while you can buy a player out of the future years of his contract for less than the remaining salary in the contract, the cap hits for the future years remain the same. The NBA has had variants of this idea through the years as well. The idea is that the cash pay out is between the team and the player, but the competitive balance/salary cap implications are between the team and the league.Sure it’s a possibility. There is no way the NFLPA can prevent AB from settling for an amount acceptable to him short of the maximum.
Once that settlement were to occur, it would be legally binding. And it would resolve the cap hits.
I am far from a salary cap expert, but we’re talking about a two-year contract with a heavy bonus component. A settlement would pinpoint to the penny how much he gets. The second year obviously is extinguished.I don't claim to have special knowledge of the NFL salary cap rules, but are we certain about the bolded? For older players in hockey, the cash paid out pursuant to a contract settlement does not necessarily equal the salary cap hit of that settlement. So while you can buy a player out of the future years of his contract for less than the remaining salary in the contract, the cap hits for the future years remain the same. The NBA has had variants of this idea through the years as well. The idea is that the cash pay out is between the team and the player, but the competitive balance/salary cap implications are between the team and the league.
They settle and account for cap hits on smaller things - like injury grievances or daily fines for guys who don't report. Those are comparatively boring and don't get much attention, so this will be viewed differently, but the concept exists. I've negotiated lots of them.It's not the same kind of union or contract. Your job didn't have a salary cap. AB cannot renegotiate a contract that he is no longer party to. This isn't you agreeing to pay your neighbor $100 to cut your lawn a few times while you are out of town, then thinking he did a shitty job and refuse to pay and the two of you agreeing on $75. Even if the first contract is completely legal, you two are legally able to alter it. That's not the case here.
If you can find some story or tweet from an NFL guy saying what you're talking about then fine, but if not you're asking the same question different ways and admitting that it's unprecedented and wanting to know why it can't happen.
Perhaps @Otto is out there...
Thanks for the info. What's the typical time frame to get a resolution on these matters?They settle and account for cap hits on smaller things - like injury grievances or daily fines for guys who don't report. Those are comparatively boring and don't get much attention, so this will be viewed differently, but the concept exists. I've negotiated lots of them.
Hopefully Otto can tell us what his experience has been, but my understanding (and limited experience) is that it’s really frickin’ hard to get data on agreements with confidentiality agreements.Thanks for the info. What's the typical time frame to get a resolution on these matters?
Eh, it's been done to death.That’s funny. I wanted to write my thesis on pieces composers wrote when they knew they were dying - Mahler’s 10th, Beethoven’s 32nd - but my adviser nixed the idea.
Curran has a decent article I didn't see posted here yesterday.Sounds like the Pats caved a bit to get him in the fold. Really stinks that he turned out to be such a nut job. Still get the sense that Brady wasn’t on board with the release.
Here’s what Brown left behind.
A bummed-out quarterback who had five practices and one game with an ultra-rare talent. He went all-in trying to make it work, got close to Brown and tried to understand and help him. He’s not happy Brown got flushed both because the football was going to be sublime and Brady thought Brown was reachable.
I was told the practice performance of Brady when Brown was on the field was almost perfect. There were more than a half-dozen plays Brown made that were breathtaking. He was beyond anything Brady ever worked with.
Brady was trying to help Brown stabilize. He disagrees with the business decision made by Robert Kraft to jettison Brown.
I don't think I'll ever understand why the Pats gave him that contract. Seems so out of character unless they truly believe they do have an out.Sounds like the Pats caved a bit to get him in the fold. Really stinks that he turned out to be such a nut job. Still get the sense that Brady wasn’t on board with the release.
They had to give him something because there was at least 1 other team in the running. I think we just need to accept that the Patriots took a risk that did not work out.I don't think I'll ever understand why the Pats gave him that contract. Seems so out of character unless they truly believe they do have an out.
Waste of $9M.
I also think people tend to have an inflated sense of what can typically be done with in-season cap space. The best player you could generally hope to get is probably, well, someone on the level of a just-past-peak Antonio Brown.They had to give him something because there was at least 1 other team in the running. I think we just need to accept that the Patriots took a risk that did not work out.
Or have a strange attachment to Robert Kraft's money not being optimally spent. As you said, they had already budgeted their roster for the season. AB was an expensive scratch ticket.I also think people tend to have an inflated sense of what can typically be done with in-season cap space. The best player you could generally hope to get is probably, well, someone on the level of a just-past-peak Antonio Brown.
That's what it sounds like to me and that's part of the reason he's been so "open" about his unhappiness.I don’t believe Brady when he says he doesn’t have any input.
I dunno. I would bet they keep him in the loop on major personnel decisions. Would love to know the inner workings of the team at some point.That's what it sounds like to me and that's part of the reason he's been so "open" about his unhappiness.
I’m not surprised. You can’t have one of your employees attacking on social media someone who has made a claim — with the attack including veiled threats and pictures of the claimant’s children. It’s a completely untenable situation for an owner. And there was no evidence that stuff like this would stop. All the evidence is to the contrary.Sometimes you have to make sub-optimal deals to get things done. I think this was one of those times. I’m more surprised that Brady/BB couldn’t talk Kraft into keeping AB around a little longer. I don’t believe Brady when he says he doesn’t have any input. He is the franchise. Kraft made the decision but I bet they talked.
Something like this, I doubt even Bill had much say.I dunno. I would bet they keep him in the loop on major personnel decisions. Would love to know the inner workings of the team at some point.
I can accept it. I just think it was a rare unforced error. I doubt another team was offering that much upfront given his history. If they were then walk away.They had to give him something because there was at least 1 other team in the running. I think we just need to accept that the Patriots took a risk that did not work out.
It is not just in-season. It's next offseason as well. Any money they don't spend gets carried over.I also think people tend to have an inflated sense of what can typically be done with in-season cap space. The best player you could generally hope to get is probably, well, someone on the level of a just-past-peak Antonio Brown.
Sometimes you have to make sub-optimal deals to get things done. I think this was one of those times. I’m more surprised that Brady/BB couldn’t talk Kraft into keeping AB around a little longer. I don’t believe Brady when he says he doesn’t have any input. He is the franchise. Kraft made the decision but I bet they talked.
Wasn’t that attack on group text and not social media? I get Kraft’s decision and have no issues with it.I’m not surprised. You can’t have one of your employees attacking on social media someone who has made a claim — with the attack including veiled threats and pictures of the claimant’s children. It’s a completely untenable situation for an owner. And there was no evidence that stuff like this would stop. All the evidence is to the contrary.
I was wondering if they had the Chiefs week 3 instead of the Jets if they make the same decision at the same time. Probably, and I'd like to think so, but maybe not.Could they have just said he's going to be inactive for the Jets and who knows maybe for awhile while we learn more? Still practices, etc.
Ed: Not advocating they should have done this. Just asking what people think.