Bills game ball thread
- Thread starter Phil Plantier
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I'm not sure of the rule (paging @CFB_Rules ) but if you slow-mo it, Andrews is 1 yard off the LOS when Mac releases the pass.
It's pretty close. Didn't they pick up a flag on *that* one? (It came after the IMDF call on Love).
Bills fans have been whining for 20+ years about how there's an NFL conspiracy for the refs to favor the Pats. Once upon a time I had to unfollow Tim's Russert's kid on Twitter because all he did every Sunday was bitch about the refs favoring the Pats.
A couple years back I was pulling for that team because of how bad they've had it. But no more, they're awful.
I think so.
Andrews is between 1-1.5 yards downfield. Is the rule 1 yard? If so, that seems within the spirit of the rule. If the rule is past the LOS, it should have been a flag.
I immediately made mention of Luke Russert crying on Twitter after yesterday's game. He's the worst.
The Bills got 2 bogus RTP calls yesterday that directly led to points. They have nothing to stand on.
It's 1 yard
On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.
NFL Rulebook | NFL Football Operations
On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.
NFL Rulebook | NFL Football Operations
Rule is writhing 1 yard. In this case it’s so borderline and irrelevant to the play that I fully agree it’s in the spirit
it's one yard. Here's the rule:
SECTION 3 - INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD
ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS
On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.
Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:
- he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent
- after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown
- after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.
Item 2. Illegally Downfield. An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield if:
- he moves more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage without contacting an opponent
- after losing contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage, he advances more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage
- after losing contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he continues to move toward his opponent’s goal line.
Note: An ineligible offensive player is illegally downfield when his entire body is more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage.
ARTICLE 2. AFTER PASS IS THROWN
After the ball leaves the passer’s hand, ineligible pass receivers can advance more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, or beyond the position reached by their initial charge, provided that they do not block or contact a defensive player, who is more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, until the ball is touched by a player of either team. Such prior blocking and/or contact is pass interference if it occurs in the vicinity of where the ball is thrown. See 8-3-1-Note above for exception when blocker maintains continuous contact.
Yeah, it's close. I won't weep for Bills Mafia.
That being said, save this link for everyone who is adement that the Pats are always on the receiving end of "refball" every game.
Andrews' foot is behind the one yard marker on the play. The player must be ENTIRELY forward of one yard to throw the flag.
IDP is one of the hardest fouls to call accurately, because it's impossible for a person's eyes to be in two places at once (on the downfield lineman, and on the QB in the backfield).
The late, great Wayne Mackie (after whom the NFL officiating development program is now named) once told me to only call IDP in three scenarios:
1) The linemen charges downfield immediately at the snap.
2) A pass that is meant to be backward is instead thrown forward
3) Broken play / QB has to double clutch a throw.
Andrews would be in category 1, but his entire body isn't past the 1 yard mark. I'm glad the college rule is FAR more liberal (IDP doesn't kick in until players are 3 yards downfield, and only on passes thrown across the line of scrimmage).
The late, great Wayne Mackie (after whom the NFL officiating development program is now named) once told me to only call IDP in three scenarios:
1) The linemen charges downfield immediately at the snap.
2) A pass that is meant to be backward is instead thrown forward
3) Broken play / QB has to double clutch a throw.
Andrews would be in category 1, but his entire body isn't past the 1 yard mark. I'm glad the college rule is FAR more liberal (IDP doesn't kick in until players are 3 yards downfield, and only on passes thrown across the line of scrimmage).
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I think part of the "problem" with this play is that the ball was in the air for a pretty long time for a swing pass like that. Jones released it when Andrews was 1.1 yds past the LOS, but was 5yds past when it was caught. Tbh, it looked pretty bad on the replay when I saw it yesterday. I only really paid closer attention after DJVa's post.
Not surprising. Like you said, very difficult to call except in the most obvious case.
As a non- official, I also prefer the college rule especially for balls thrown behind the LOS.
It's "Ineligible Downfield (on) Pass", so IDP. I dunno, I don't make up the foul codes.
Ahh, ok.
I work in a global company and often the acronyms get out of order based on language, though I didn't think that was the case here
It's another difference between college and NFL that I didn't know until now. College treats it as a pane of glass (fingernail beyond 3 yards = you are beyond). the NFL requires the entire body. In effect that actually makes the rules more similar.
I still think Buffalo is really dangerous when it all comes together. Allen hasn't looked totally right to me this year for the most part, but they're getting more out of 2023 Gabe Davis than last year's version, and Cook and Kincaid are both promising. Production outside of Diggs and Allen's legs has been their biggest variance the last few years and that seems at least partly solved. The defensive injuries cap their true tier 1 elite team potential, but it's not going to surprise me if they drop 40 on anyone in the playoffs. If reasonably healthy on offense I still see them as having a decent (read: less than the Chiefs, Eagles, or 9ers, but as good or better than most others) chance to go all the way.
Doesn't seem like there's any guarantee that this is going to happen does it?
Buffalo have scored over 40 once all season against Miami and are trending down.. are we expecting them to play better against playoff teams? Their offense has a lot to figure out... and a lot of that is Allen being more accurate downfield (at least yesterday). Gabe Davis and Diggs had a lot of targets yesterday with not a lot of completions.
User name checks out.
I thought it was for sure illegal at the time, but it looks pretty damned clean on review.
I like to watch for ineligible man downfield. It's a little bit of a pet peeve. Even on tv when they are showing a play from the angle down the line of scrimmage, it's tough to see. It's kind of like calling offside in soccer where the linesman needs to watch for when the ball is kicked and whether the player is past the second last defender. I'm not surprised to hear CFB say that it's very hard to call from ground level, and that they need some presumptive principles to call it.
I feel like I see it so often and it's not called. Any time even a miniscule things to affect timing, the linesmen look like they are 4 yards down field. Some teams actually seem to coach it up pretty well, having the players run horizontal, but for the most part, if the ball is not out immediately on a screen or play to numbers at the line, there are men downfield, it seems like. The Chiefs and Bills both run a lot of those kinds of plays, and so they are good teams to watch. Once you start seeing it, it's hard to stop seeing it.
It's one of those penalties that I'm not even sure why it exists. I get it if there is a convoy that waits up and gets a head start, but most of the time the linemen are barely involved in the play.
I feel like I see it so often and it's not called. Any time even a miniscule things to affect timing, the linesmen look like they are 4 yards down field. Some teams actually seem to coach it up pretty well, having the players run horizontal, but for the most part, if the ball is not out immediately on a screen or play to numbers at the line, there are men downfield, it seems like. The Chiefs and Bills both run a lot of those kinds of plays, and so they are good teams to watch. Once you start seeing it, it's hard to stop seeing it.
It's one of those penalties that I'm not even sure why it exists. I get it if there is a convoy that waits up and gets a head start, but most of the time the linemen are barely involved in the play.
I've never understood the point of this rule either. These guys aren't eligible receivers so who really cares if they are downfield blocking or getting engaged? Offenses would have to make a decision whether it was worth it on a particular play. Defenses could identify certain actions faster, etc.
Rules that can be abolished:
Men downfield
Illegal motion
Illegal formation (at least the one with less than 7 players on LOS)
Tripping
Taunting/non-violent unsportsmanlike conduct
Men downfield
Illegal motion
Illegal formation (at least the one with less than 7 players on LOS)
Tripping
Taunting/non-violent unsportsmanlike conduct
The Bills are not close to the same team without that douchebag cheap shot artist, Matt Milano. And Matt, if you’re reading this, RIP to your leg motherfucker, could not have happened to a nicer guy.
I've been trying to get Chestnut Hill to rescind his degree for like 3+ years now, to no success. Fun fact: his draft slot was originally the Pats, that was given to the Bills for signing Gillespie.
It makes no sense. What should Andrew’s do there if it was even the right call (which it wasn’t). They chose not to rush him so he should just stand there and hang out? It’s like the NFL with their bullshit rules around jumping or pushing over a defensive teammate for years yet they allow the QB sneak now with 7 players pushing the QB, the most protected person in sports and have no issue with it.
The rules are stacked in favor of the offense enough already in the NFL. If you start having guards and ineligible tackes flooding the secondary, then nobody knows who to cover. It would be impossible to play defense effectively on passing plays.
Liberalizing it a bit, like maybe 3 yards downfield whole body or whatever wouldn't be as bad.
Liberalizing it a bit, like maybe 3 yards downfield whole body or whatever wouldn't be as bad.
If one got rid of the ineligible man downfield rule, defenders would even be more likely to get picked off during passing plays. Probably end up with even more illegal contact penalties as a result. As noted, there is enough offense already.
And Andrews was in legal position; it’s almost always obvious when it is called.
And Andrews was in legal position; it’s almost always obvious when it is called.
Lazar's After further review is out, well worth the watch, focus is on offensive scheme and execution. BOB and Mac both get high marks, not surprisingly. Might be that the offense just took this long to get the whole package in place.
It was always going to take time for offensive coordinator Bill O'Brien to get his program up and running. O'Brien had to install his playbook, put the quarterback back together, coach the poor habits out of the holdovers from the last regime, and figure out what he had to best utilize his personnel. And O'Brien had to do all that with O-Line injuries and lacking talent in areas that are key to good offensive football.
O'Brien's master plan is coming together. For the record, we wrote about the positive glimpses in the second half in the loss to Vegas, so we saw some of this coming and aren't fully succumbing to recency bias. Is it replicable? That comes down to execution. But the scheming is there.
https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-is-patriots-offense-starting-to-come-together-under-obrien
It was always going to take time for offensive coordinator Bill O'Brien to get his program up and running. O'Brien had to install his playbook, put the quarterback back together, coach the poor habits out of the holdovers from the last regime, and figure out what he had to best utilize his personnel. And O'Brien had to do all that with O-Line injuries and lacking talent in areas that are key to good offensive football.
O'Brien's master plan is coming together. For the record, we wrote about the positive glimpses in the second half in the loss to Vegas, so we saw some of this coming and aren't fully succumbing to recency bias. Is it replicable? That comes down to execution. But the scheming is there.
https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-is-patriots-offense-starting-to-come-together-under-obrien
These are all part of the same overall idea: They are how the defense knows which players to cover and which players they do not have to cover. Without formation rules, how do you know if the guy two spots away from the center is a tackle (who can't catch a pass) or a tight end (who can)?
You can just watch the arena league, that's basically the rules they operate under
Yeah, that’s one reason. I think it might cause problems for receivers too, though.
I would guess this rule stems from something Pop Warner did in the past, as he was known to bend norms that hadn’t been codified into rules (receivers going in and out of bounds, for example).
It's as clear as day that it was not a penalty. Foot is behind the one yard marker as the ball leaves Mac's hand.
CASE CLOSED.
Good photo. In real time I thought that he was clearly downfield too early and too far, but I think it's because there's such a separation from the pocket. But I forgot to take into account that the pocket itself is quite a bit behind the LOS. So my first look at the play was deceiving me and I was wrong about it.
Kind of reminded me of the play to James White in OT of the Falcons SB. Wish we’d do more of it. Stevenson is pretty good in space on these plays.
Ha. I think that was pretty clearly an attempt at a cut block to drop the DE to open the throwing lane for Mac on the screen, but clearly the LB leapt out of the way, leaving Onwenu lying on the ground. Cut blocks always leave an OL on the ground like that though.
But it does make for a funny picture.
What's wrong with that? He was sleepy and needed quick nappy to recharge.