I'm seeing another Hayward explosion.Kyrie out tonight with the "we're playing the Cavs" flu.
I'm seeing another Hayward explosion.Kyrie out tonight with the "we're playing the Cavs" flu.
God I hope so. He has has a few nice games this season. But some nights he looks like he doesn't belong in the NBA, and I'm a fan.I'm seeing another Hayward explosion.
I think he needs some time off. He's had to spend a ton of energy, both physical and mental, over the last 16 months to get back to where he is now. I'm anxious to see how he does post-ASB.God I hope so. He has has a few nice games this season. But some nights he looks like he doesn't belong in the NBA, and I'm a fan.
This isn’t new though. Even before Hayward came to Boston he’d have those type of games every 3-4 weeks. Single digit scoring nights when he looked like crap on 3-15 shooting aren’t new to Hayward. He’s talked about sometimes around here like he was putting up consistent LeBron-level offensive numbers which wasn’t the case.God I hope so. He has has a few nice games this season. But some nights he looks like he doesn't belong in the NBA, and I'm a fan.
HRB, I didn't write that... that was jimbodandyThis isn’t new though. Even before Hayward came to Boston he’d have those type of games every 3-4 weeks. Single digit scoring nights when he looked like crap on 3-15 shooting aren’t new to Hayward. He’s talked about sometimes around here like he was putting up consistent LeBron-level offensive numbers which wasn’t the case.
Whenever I see a stat such as this my first reaction is that this is due to the player getting more minutes due to him having it that night.......rather than him having that night due to him getting more minutes.--in games where he plays more than 30 minutes his TS% is .587 with an ORTG of 118. It's .509 and 105 when he plays under that. So, clearly he seems to be a player that needs those minutes to get into flow or whatever, but that has to be balanced against team depth and what he's dealing with.
If looked at logically this all makes sense. His numbers at the rim reflect his reduction of physical ability and awareness of this fact while his assist numbers are a direct result of his role in Utah as primary initiator in PNR and iso at end of shot clock in their half court heavy sets.--Here's the biggest takeaway, which we've all seen--his aggressiveness only shows in flashes. Compared to his last season at Utah, his at the rim shooting % has dropped from 69.1% to 59.7% and his percentage of shots at the rim has decreased from 25% to 20%. Also this season he's being assisted on nearly 75% of his shots at the rim, in 16/17 in Utah it was only 60%. Aggressiveness, or lack thereof. Those 2 things (fewer shots at rim and making them less often) account for about 3.5 points/game.
Could be, but Stevens seems pretty set in his rotations, so I don't know. It could also have been nights where they were sitting a guy or 2 and he knew he was getting extended minutes. It's similar to when I see a stat during a broadcast that says something like a team shoots .491 in wins and only .436 in losses. Yeah, no kidding. That's why those are losses.Whenever I see a stat such as this my first reaction is that this is due to the player getting more minutes due to him having it that night.......rather than him having that night due to him getting more minutes.
Kyrie has the flu. Warriors in town Saturday. Let Al rest.We're sitting both Kyrie AND Horford tonight? I realize it's the Cavs, but we also don't want to lose the game, right?
Worked out okay.We're sitting both Kyrie AND Horford tonight? I realize it's the Cavs, but we also don't want to lose the game, right?
IMO, this stat shows that GH plays more in blowouts against inferior teams. I don't think it shows any causation between minutes Nd production.--in games where he plays more than 30 minutes his TS% is .587 with an ORTG of 118. It's .509 and 105 when he plays under that. So, clearly he seems to be a player that needs those minutes to get into flow or whatever, but that has to be balanced against team depth and what he's dealing with.
GH used to dunk. A lot. Like top 10 of all non-centers. https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/18/18188715/gordon-hayward-doesnt-need-his-peak-athleticism-to-be-effective-injury-boston-celtics--Here's the biggest takeaway, which we've all seen--his aggressiveness only shows in flashes. Compared to his last season at Utah, his at the rim shooting % has dropped from 69.1% to 59.7% and his percentage of shots at the rim has decreased from 25% to 20%. Also this season he's being assisted on nearly 75% of his shots at the rim, in 16/17 in Utah it was only 60%. Aggressiveness, or lack thereof. Those 2 things (fewer shots at rim and making them less often) account for about 3.5 points/game.
I think it's just too soon to tell. There's just no good reason to think that Hayward is as far back as he will ever get; it's just too soon for that.Again, I keep coming back to Grant Hill when people refer to Hayward. Hill in Orlando was a fine player but never close to the guy he was in Detroit. At this point there’s nothing to do but hope this is wrong.
Hill played for a while on an injured ankle and until it broke and then came back too fast. He was a victim of not getting good medical advice directly. See here: https://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/grant-hill-says-detroit-orlando-mismanaged-injuries-042711Again, I keep coming back to Grant Hill when people refer to Hayward. Hill in Orlando was a fine player but never close to the guy he was in Detroit. At this point there’s nothing to do but hope this is wrong.
Same. Predictions of doom and gloom with him getting real minutes were unfounded.Was pretty encouraged by Wanamaker. He looks weirdly stiff on defense, but moves his feet well. On offense, he seems like a great fit along Jaylen and Hayward on a 2nd unit, just because he can bring the ball up the floor, space from 3, and initiate the offense. I'd be totally fine rolling in the playoffs with him, Kyrie, and Smart as the ball-handlers if they can find a way to move Terry for some value.
It works because Stevens likes his playmakers/initiators off the ball to start sets. We saw this a lot with IT, and it's really amped up now with Kyrie. In a 2nd unit context, they like to do a lot to get Brown the ball on the move, or have Hayward run into a pnr.Same. Predictions of doom and gloom with him getting real minutes were unfounded.
If I'm known for anything in this subforum, it's bitching about Rozier, so caveats galore here. But I see a limited guy in Wanamaker who clearly doesn't approach Terry's ceiling by a longshot, yet somehow the offense and defense seems to hold together fine when he's on the floor. Frankly I like him better as a backup and Rozier obviously as a starter.
Agreed. While he has nowhere near the ceiling that Terry does, it also seems like he comes with a lot less volatility. On a second unit with Hayward and Jaylen able to handle the bulk of the playmaking opportunities, I think Wanamaker would be fine. Let’s also keep in mind that a playoff rotation in a world where Rozier is traded probably goes 8 deep with Smart/Hayward splitting the ball-handling duties for the 10ish minutes Kyrie isn’t on the court.Was pretty encouraged by Wanamaker. He looks weirdly stiff on defense, but moves his feet well. On offense, he seems like a great fit along Jaylen and Hayward on a 2nd unit, just because he can bring the ball up the floor, space from 3, and initiate the offense. I'd be totally fine rolling in the playoffs with him, Kyrie, and Smart as the ball-handlers if they can find a way to move Terry for some value.
Weren't people saying about a month ago that Wanamaker would be lucky to be a decent 14th guy on the bench?Same. Predictions of doom and gloom with him getting real minutes were unfounded.
Yeah, I'd say my estimation of the Cavs was a weeeeee bit optimistic.Worked out okay.
Another player I think of is Raef LaFrentz who was never close to the same athletically post-knee injury as he was during his early years in Denver. The difference here is that Hayward has better overall skills than Raef did but a similar drop off wouldn’t be unexpected. In Utah, Hayward was a backend All-Star similar to what Horford has been......I don’t expect a return to that level but he can still be a good player.Again, I keep coming back to Grant Hill when people refer to Hayward. Hill in Orlando was a fine player but never close to the guy he was in Detroit. At this point there’s nothing to do but hope this is wrong.
Agree with all of this. Comparing NBA playoff level intensity with the Cleveland Cavaliers second unit of a late-January game is pretty shortsighted. I’m sure Wanamaker would be fine for a couple first half spot minutes here and there if there were foul trouble but no way am I wanting him to play regular playoff rotation minutes if i have Championship aspirations.I was a Wanamaker skeptic and while I agree he has looked good in spurts, its mostly been against second units of mediocre and bad teams. I could be wrong here but I think he would be exposed pretty quickly, especially on defense, against shorter rotations in the playoffs. Rozier, for all of his flaws, can create his own shot, rebound well and is a better, if inconsistent, defender.
The Rozier fit/chemistry issues people here are discussing are concerns. However I am simply not comfortable with the idea of dealing Rozier and having Wanamaker replace him, especially against good teams.
Yeah, on the first part, there's nothing to be gleaned from just looking at numbers, since there could be a bunch of different reasons.IMO, this stat shows that GH plays more in blowouts against inferior teams. I don't think it shows any causation between minutes Nd production.
GH used to dunk. A lot. Like top 10 of all non-centers. https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/18/18188715/gordon-hayward-doesnt-need-his-peak-athleticism-to-be-effective-injury-boston-celtics
That's the difference in his rim finishing #s I would guess
If, and I know it's easier said than done, he was able to get his 3pt percentage up to 40%, he'd be a dangerous man. He's a such a good ball handler that having to guard him more closely at the 3 pt line would be a nice enhancement to his drive and dish skills.Another player I think of is Raef LaFrentz who was never close to the same athletically post-knee injury as he was during his early years in Denver. The difference here is that Hayward has better overall skills than Raef did but a similar drop off wouldn’t be unexpected. In Utah, Hayward was a backend All-Star similar to what Horford has been......I don’t expect a return to that level but he can still be a good player.
I warned two years ago about being careful with expectations for Hayward and this is an example of what I was referring to in this case with his shooting. Over his last 4 years in Utah covering over 1,000 3-point attempts, Hayward shot it at 35.6%...…...which is the same as Terry Rozier is shooting it at and just below Marcus Smart this year. He was a real good player for Utah with a system that catered to him......he was never a great NBA player. When I hear people talk about his return to greatness I kinda cringe because that isn't ever happening even if he does need this first year back to return to form.If, and I know it's easier said than done, he was able to get his 3pt percentage up to 40%, he'd be a dangerous man. He's a such a good ball handler that having to guard him more closely at the 3 pt line would be a nice enhancement to his drive and dish skills.
Yeah, he was never close to Grant Hill as a player. He was a fringe Max guy. Hopefully he gets back to that point.I warned two years ago about being careful with expectations for Hayward and this is an example of what I was referring to in this case with his shooting. Over his last 4 years in Utah covering over 1,000 3-point attempts, Hayward shot it at 35.6%...…...which is the same as Terry Rozier is shooting it at and just below Marcus Smart this year. He was a real good player for Utah with a system that catered to him......he was never a great NBA player. When I hear people talk about his return to greatness I kinda cringe because that isn't ever happening even if he does need this first year back to return to form.
The reason a lot was expected from Hayward is because his numbers kept getting better and better in Utah. In his free agent year, he averaged 22/5/4 and shot almost 40% from 3. At the time he signed, I don't think it was very hard to imagine that playing under a coach who knows his strengths/weaknesses more than anyone and on a better team that he would put up similar numbers. Once Kyrie came into the mix, everyone should have thought that his scoring numbers would be down because of Kyrie. Instead of 22 a game, he may only score 15-17 but be very efficient because of less touches. Hayward's ceiling is All-Star level player but he's not a franchise guy and never was.I warned two years ago about being careful with expectations for Hayward and this is an example of what I was referring to in this case with his shooting. Over his last 4 years in Utah covering over 1,000 3-point attempts, Hayward shot it at 35.6%...…...which is the same as Terry Rozier is shooting it at and just below Marcus Smart this year. He was a real good player for Utah with a system that catered to him......he was never a great NBA player. When I hear people talk about his return to greatness I kinda cringe because that isn't ever happening even if he does need this first year back to return to form.
Yeah, I'm not sure anyone here thought he was a HOF'er. And anyone that did is being just as unrealistic as those that watch him now and think he's back as far as he's gonna get.Grant Hill is a HOF'er. There are very few players as versatile and as good as him. Just because he managed to have a career derailed by injuries does in no way mean there should be any comparison to him and Hayward
Placing extra emphasis on ones contract year is oftentimes fools gold due to the extra motivation during that window. We’re seeing that right now with MaMo and I was wary of a little bit of this with Hayward (although not a lot since he was very good the previous years). Post-injury and with a lower usage here moving forward I can’t envision him reaching All-Star level again so I have his ceiling a little lower than that. The 15-17 ppg is in the range I him to reach next year and beyond.The reason a lot was expected from Hayward is because his numbers kept getting better and better in Utah. In his free agent year, he averaged 22/5/4 and shot almost 40% from 3. At the time he signed, I don't think it was very hard to imagine that playing under a coach who knows his strengths/weaknesses more than anyone and on a better team that he would put up similar numbers. Once Kyrie came into the mix, everyone should have thought that his scoring numbers would be down because of Kyrie. Instead of 22 a game, he may only score 15-17 but be very efficient because of less touches. Hayward's ceiling is All-Star level player but he's not a franchise guy and never was.
Your free agent year concerns would be validated with Hayward except his PPG increased every year of his career in Utah.Placing extra emphasis on ones contract year is oftentimes fools gold due to the extra motivation during that window. We’re seeing that right now with MaMo and I was wary of a little bit of this with Hayward (although not a lot since he was very good the previous years). Post-injury and with a lower usage here moving forward I can’t envision him reaching All-Star level again so I have his ceiling a little lower than that. The 15-17 ppg is in the range I him to reach next year and beyond.
His PPG increase was consistent with his increased Usage and role in the offense once Gobert replaces Kanter along with Burke having a lesser role in the Snyder offense.Your free agent year concerns would be validated with Hayward except his PPG increased every year of his career in Utah.
% of shots that were dunks:GH used to dunk. A lot. Like top 10 of all non-centers. https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/18/18188715/gordon-hayward-doesnt-need-his-peak-athleticism-to-be-effective-injury-boston-celtics
That's the difference in his rim finishing #s I would guess
Thanks for posting that. One thing I noticed was that he looks stronger in the upper body in that 16-17 video, which is surprising considering how much time he's had to work on that while rehabbing his ankle. He just seems a little frail right now.I do hope we see this again
Maybe a little FA-juice in a contract year? One of the benefit is an improved hand-eye coordination to improve shooting as well as explosion which is missing in his game. I’m not sayin.....Thanks for posting that. One thing I noticed was that he looks stronger in the upper body in that 16-17 video, which is surprising considering how much time he's had to work on that while rehabbing his ankle. He just seems a little frail right now.
Wouldn’t the Swedish Larry Bird be black?So much for both teams being at full strength on Saturday. Congrats, Swedish Larry Bird!
Did you not think he'd have similar usage rates and a similar role in Brad's system?His PPG increase was consistent with his increased Usage and role in the offense once Gobert replaces Kanter along with Burke having a lesser role in the Snyder offense.
...annnnd the game was cancelled due to wet floor at the Expo Center. Gah.
Time Lord will be playing with the Maine Red Claws tonight (I'm going).
No not at all. The entire offense ran through Hayward as the defacto PG much of the time when G.Hill was on the floor with the ball back in Hayward’s hands when the offense would break down against the shot clock. In Boston, the ball would primarily be in Kyrie’s hands with the other sets initiated by Horford, Hayward, Tatum, or Jaylen.Did you not think he'd have similar usage rates and a similar role in Brad's system?